Awesome new zones but the leveling is the worst we ever had

[Post]

It's just weird because everyone always complains about how easy leveling mobs are, and how much better it was in vanilla when you had to plan out your pulls and whatnot.

[Soon-TM]

To players with simple minds (i.e. most players), unfortunately yes.

Unfortunately, power progression is the only form of player progression left in the game. Would anyone partake in raids/M+/arenas if at the end of the day you did LESS (relatively speaking) damage/healing/mitigation than at the beginning?

It's just weird because everyone always complains about how easy leveling mobs are, and how much better it was in vanilla when you had to plan out your pulls and whatnot.

I don't think that the people longing for vanilla-like levelling are one and the same than those who just want to bulldoze through all the outdoor content...

[Post]

I don't think that the people longing for vanilla-like levelling are one and the same than those who just want to bulldoze through all the outdoor content...

I hope you're right.

[Deleted]

I don't agree that higher levels should be easier, but I agree with leveling feeling pointless because there's literally no characters progression from 100 to 120. Once you get your final talent point, that's it. Levels don't mean anything at all, and it feels like crap. There should be some reward for leveling up.

This is also why I actually think the Classic talent point and skill rank systems made leveling much more fun, because you always had something to look forward to. Now it's just leveling for the sake of leveling, without progressing your character in any way.

[iamthedevil]

Leveling in an expansion has always been awkward because you level up but power down with each level.

[Accendor]

This is how every expansion starts. Give it a couple weeks and a few good upgrades and you'll start to feel much more capable. Then in a few months you'll be invincible to this entry-level stuff.

No, this is actually not how every expansion starts. Usually we get something during the leveling process that lets us feel progression.
In the first few expansions this was done with talent points and the fact that we actually got stronger compared to the enemies in the zones (because they did not scale).
This went on until level 100 where we got our last talent in the tree but even during leveling in Draenor we got perks every level that added to our strength to compensate for our stats scaling down.
In Legion we had our artifact which progressed with us and we did not really lose something after Draenor.

This time it is completely different.
We are losing a lot of abilities because of pruning, we lose everything connected to our artifact, our stats scale down, our legendaries stop working and we get nothing during the leveling process, which makes it feel punishing.

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You want the game to become easier as you progress? WoW players have the most nonsensical logic. Ridiculous. The low quality whine here is disgraceful.

Thats like... how RPGs work. Character progression and all that.

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This x 1000%

You're suppose to feel weaker. It's been that way since the game started. Lol

No, it really has not and no, that is not how leveling works - at least in basically every other game that includes leveling.

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Leveling is the journey to power, you'll never really (or should never really) feel to be the upper hand during it.

Yes, but I am literally getting weaker. A lot.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

I personally think it's the best leveling experience we've had. I love the zones, I love the quests, I love the story and I love the fact that it's kind of a challenge to get to 120. At least now I get to use my cooldowns while leveling.

[Accendor]

Lol this isn't the first person I've seen recently trying to act like the game getting harder at higher levels is something new and terrible. Complainers must be running out of stuff so are just making things up now.

The problem is not the game getting "harder" the problem is inverted character progression.
I actually do not know one other game that does this - do you perhaps have an example for me?

[Echoherb]

This x 1000%

You're suppose to feel weaker. It's been that way since the game started. Lol

It's also this way in any other MMO too.

[Accendor]

It's just weird because everyone always complains about how easy leveling mobs are, and how much better it was in vanilla when you had to plan out your pulls and whatnot.

Ok, here is the point: Make the enemies stronger and not us weaker.

[ImpTaimer]

Leveling should've stopped at 100 and everything should've been ilvl related. There's been ilvl gates for LFD for a while now, just apply it to quests. There's absolutely no difference between leveling or getting gear. Its arbitrary to have level requirements on gear, and even more arbitrary to have level AND stat requirements (doesn't apply to WoW but does for some other games).
Artifacts level should've been "leveling" in Legion. Relics should've decided secondary stats on the weapon only.
For BFA, leveling Heart of Azeroth should've been the new leveling.

As far as scaling ruining leveling, the problem is gearing and scaling not being balanced. Either you're stomping or getting stomped. Only extremes, especially when class balance isn't even slated to be "done" until patch 8.1. A major issue being designed around how much Azerite gear you have and how the unlocked abilities are poorly balanced where, again, only exists in extremes.

[Post]

Ok, here is the point: Make the enemies stronger and not us weaker.

You're objectively not weaker, so it must be the enemies getting stronger.

[Malikath]

I have a legitimate question:

Is literally everyone's idea of progression killing things faster? Like...beating the zone isn't progression to you? doing the quests isn't progression?

Literally the only sense of progression you have is from bigger numbers\things dying quicker?

it's because they're not specifying player progression, the act of building your character in the mechanics of the RPG, and story progression, the continuation of the ongoing plot, and you're conflating the two.

if the quests aren't replacing the gear that leveling is devaluing because of the relative rating system then yes there is a problem considering that 90% of your player progression is in your gear.

[motorized]

lvling is to easy not even remotely hard at all, I bet you think the sky is falling.

[Malikath]

Leveling should've stopped at 100 and everything should've been ilvl related. There's been ilvl gates for LFD for a while now, just apply it to quests. There's absolutely no difference between leveling or getting gear. Its arbitrary to have level requirements on gear, and even more arbitrary to have level AND stat requirements (doesn't apply to WoW but does for some other games).
Artifacts level should've been "leveling" in Legion. Relics should've decided secondary stats on the weapon only.
For BFA, leveling Heart of Azeroth should've been the new leveling.

As far as scaling ruining leveling, the problem is gearing and scaling not being balanced. Either you're stomping or getting stomped. Only extremes, especially when class balance isn't even slated to be "done" until patch 8.1. A major issue being designed around how much Azerite gear you have and how the unlocked abilities are poorly balanced where, again, only exists in extremes.

no, instead of going past 100 we should of started the path of the titans style artifact progression(which legion relics and now the heart of azeroth are based on), with the talent tree being retained from one expansion to the next instead of being tabula rasa'd every fucking expac.

[Zaktar]

Leveling should feel rewarding but this time it feels punishing. I think instead of leveling this time they should have simply used achievements to track to progress or something similar, so that is at least does not feel as punishing as it does now,

Just because it has been, why does it have to be? Why can't we enjoy the challenge, and then reward of getting more gear and outpacing the content again at max level? Why must we be so unhappy about change.

[Gurbz]

Ok, here is the point: Make the enemies stronger and not us weaker.

I don't think Blizzard had any choice but to weaken the players. They went too far in powering us up in Legion really. Between the Artifacts and the legendaries, by the end of Legion we were all walking around at near demi-god levels of power. Even average skill players in equally average gear were pulling off things that would have never been possible in any other expansion for anyone but the highest skilled, highest geared players, like soloing current expansion raids. So they had a choice between nerfing us harder than they would probably like to because they knew how it would feel to the players, or let the powerlevel creep continue to the point that the game/world would have become a caricature of itself.

[Kinny]

The enemies scale with me, so nothing changes except that I am losing things (e.g. old trinket proccs and legendary effects) and that my % for anything like crit etc. goes down.

This part specifically. No new talents or spells make leveling 10 levels feel pointless. The Azerite gear, so far, has not felt exciting to acquire or unlock.

[Gurluas]

Are you people daft? This was never the case before because leveling didn't fully scale.
In Cata once you were level 85 if you came back to Vashj'ir's lv 82 mobs, you could easily kill them.
But all mobs scale up now, so places you've already been become MUCH harder as you level, which really ruins the idea of growing stronger as you level...When you get weaker in the same area.

There's no reward or sense of accomplishment for leveling up as there used to be in the old days.

[Linkedblade]

No, this is actually not how every expansion starts. Usually we get something during the leveling process that lets us feel progression.
In the first few expansions this was done with talent points and the fact that we actually got stronger compared to the enemies in the zones (because they did not scale).
This went on until level 100 where we got our last talent in the tree but even during leveling in Draenor we got perks every level that added to our strength to compensate for our stats scaling down.
In Legion we had our artifact which progressed with us and we did not really lose something after Draenor.

This time it is completely different.
We are losing a lot of abilities because of pruning, we lose everything connected to our artifact, our stats scale down, our legendaries stop working and we get nothing during the leveling process, which makes it feel punishing.

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Thats like... how RPGs work. Character progression and all that.

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No, it really has not and no, that is not how leveling works - at least in basically every other game that includes leveling.

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Yes, but I am literally getting weaker. A lot.

Which rpg do you play that gets easier as you press further?

I mean if you go back to an earlier area with the skills and equipment you have later, of course it will be easier.