Horde lost in the Battle for the Undercity

[Ielenia]

So, the trap worked. Fine.

Thanks for admitting that they won the war. The trap worked, the Horde denied the Alliance everything they set out to do.

If that's your opinion, that's fine.

... Really? Are you claiming that it's my opinion that I never said Sylvanas planned for Jaina's arrival?

[Eazy]

Thanks for admitting that they won the war. The trap worked, the Horde denied the Alliance everything they set out to do.

What?

The war is far from over. And they lost that battle. They had to retreat, they ran away, they couldn't fight toe-to-toe with Alliance forces.

... Really? Are you claiming that it's my opinion that I never said Sylvanas planned for Jaina's arrival?

I just said that it's your opinion that Sylvanas was prepared for the Jaina arrival, though there's no source of that. IF you have one, then sure, show me.

[Ielenia]

What?

The war is far from over. And they lost that battle. They had to retreat, they ran away, they couldn't fight toe-to-toe with Alliance forces.

They won the battle because they managed to thwart the Alliance's plans completely: Undercity and the castle of Lordaeron did not fall into Alliance's hands, and Sylvanas is still "alive" and at large.

I just said that it's your opinion that Sylvanas was prepared for the Jaina arrival, though there's no source of that. IF you have one, then sure, show me.

Are you playing stupid right now? I'll repost my previous reply to you:

I never said she planned for that. I said she controlled the flow of the fight. There's a difference.

[Eazy]

They won the battle because they managed to thwart the Alliance's plans completely: Undercity and the castle of Lordaeron did not fall into Alliance's hands, and Sylvanas is still "alive" and at large.

Why Horde blighted their own city then? Because the won the fight? Seriously?

Are you playing stupid right now? I'll repost my previous reply to you:

As I said, she wasn't controlling anything. She blighted her own city, because Jaina appeared.

[Deleted]

Sylvanas was never after the Undercity, she didn't care about it. This was all a trap she set up to get the entire Alliance leadership in one place and wipe them out all at once, which would have succeeded if the most powerful Human sorceress alive hadn't been in that room. The Alliance won a war of attrition in Lordaeron. There was just a token force of the Horde in Lordaeron Keep, as opposed to the full might of the Alliance, and yet they still came out on top, because what should have been a devastating defeat was a stalemate; and Sylvanas not only inflicted tremendous losses on the Alliance army, thanks to the Blight, but almost killed the entire Alliance leadership. Therefore, Anduin looked weak and also vulnerable.

Besides the fact that this attack was meant to ultimately kick the Forsaken out of Lordaeron, thanks to the War Table missions we know that they control Shadowfang Keep, the ruins of Alterac, Andorhal, and are attempting to rebuild Durnholde Keep and Southshore, as well as claiming Fenris Isle and the spirits of Dun Garok. So, it is clear that Anduin failed in his intent to secure Lordaeron for the Alliance. Sylvanas might have lost Lordaeron Keep, but her dominion over Lordaeron is still very much secure and unlike the Night Elves, whose homeland is completely charred, the Forsaken still control Deathknell, Calston Estate and The Bulwark in Tirisfal Glades.

Ultimately, Sylvanas had clearly given up on the Undercity, especially with much of the Horde army still in Kalimdor locked in the War of Thorns. Much like Garrosh with Theramore, her sole goal had become to trap and finish off the Alliance in one swift strike, using the Undercity as a bait to lure them right into the centre of her lair. She succeeded. Period. No one could have imagined that Jaina would come out of the shadows after spending the entirety of Legion AWOL and with a brief Warbringers episode just to reintroduce. Despite all their experience, not even Sylvanas or Saurfang could have anticipated that.

[Powell]

If it wasn't for Jaina's deux ex machina, the alliance would've been dust.

The horde lost, the Alliance won nothing.

[Ielenia]

Why Horde blighted their own city then? Because the won the fight? Seriously?

Please don't be stupid. She did so to keep her city from falling into Alliance's hands.

As I said, she wasn't controlling anything. She blighted her own city, because Jaina appeared.

Again, please don't be stupid. Blighting the entire city at the same time is not something that can be prepared in just a few minutes. That was Sylvanas' goal the entire time.

[steelballfc]

Why Horde blighted their own city then? Because the won the fight? Seriously? .

russia say's hi

[Zuben]

Alliance may not have conquered Capital City, but they did deny it from the Horde, which is a huge boon to their war effort in the surrounding area. No matter how you look at it, the Alliance gained from it while the Horde only lost. The continuation can be spectated in the follower missions. Time will tell if they result in anything firm in-game.

Again, please don't be stupid. Blighting the entire city at the same time is not something that can be prepared in just a few minutes. That was Sylvanas' goal the entire time.

I'd rather call it contingency, as Sylv couldn't possibly have predicted Jaina's Deus Ex Machina moment or the Void rifts. In both cases Horde had Alliance on the ropes.

The Horde lost the battle, but I think we still came off better image-wise, as everything we pulled was the product of planning and preparation, while the Alliance pushed through with plot-convenient power ups. Though admittedly Sylvanas does seem to have powers she never made use of before, like raising the dead by herself and banshee flight. I'd love to see an explanation for those just as I would love to know why Jaina is suddenly god-tier.

[Ielenia]

I'd rather call it contingency, as Sylv couldn't possibly have predicted Jaina's Deus Ex Machina moment or the Void rifts. In both cases Horde had Alliance on the ropes.

I agree on that.

The Horde lost the battle, but I think we still came off better image-wise, as everything we pulled was the product of planning and preparation, while the Alliance pushed through with plot-convenient power ups. Though admittedly Sylvanas does seem to have powers she never made use of before, like raising the dead by herself and banshee flight. I'd love to see an explanation for those just as I would love to know why Jaina is suddenly god-tier.

Jaina commandeering a derelict ship, making it fly like that and shoot arcane volleys through its cannons is indeed something that needs explaining. However, Jaina has always been a very powerful mage, so her powers are a little, teensy-bit more believable than an undead ranger who until then could only shoot shadow-infused arrows but now can suddenly turn incorporeal, fly through enemies and killing them in the process, and can resurrect the dead, something that, as shown during Cataclysm, she needed the Val'kyr to do so. Kind of makes her entire plot during Legion moot, doesn't it?

[Eazy]

Please don't be stupid. She did so to keep her city from falling into Alliance's hands.

And why would her city fall into Alliance's hands?

The Horde lost the battle, but I think we still came off better image-wise, as everything we pulled was the product of planning and preparation, while the Alliance pushed through with plot-convenient power ups. Though admittedly Sylvanas does seem to have powers she never made use of before, like raising the dead by herself and banshee flight. I'd love to see an explanation for those just as I would love to know why Jaina is suddenly god-tier.

Excatly.

But fanboys are still going to comment that "Horde will win the war" or "if you plan on losing, then you win", and that's not a point of this thread.

[The Stormbringer]

It wasn't 'to make the Alliance retreat'. The entire thing was planned from the beginning, hell, it was planned even before the beginning. We find out Sylvanas has her civilians start being evacuated AFTER SHE BURNS TELDRASSIL. She knew the Alliance would come, and so she had a plan. What was her plan? To use Lordaeron and the Undercity to cull as many of their forces as possible with minimal losses to her own side, and if she could manage it, assassinate their leadership. She would have succeeded if Jaina hadn't showed up, and still mostly succeeded if Jaina hadn't been with Anduin in the throne room.

So no, it wasn't a loss for the Horde, it was a victory.

[Eazy]

So no, it wasn't a loss for the Horde, it was a victory.

Horde lost a city, it wasn't victory.
Just because you plan your own defeat it doesn't mean it's victory.

[The Stormbringer]

Horde lost a city, it wasn't victory.
Just because you plan your own defeat it doesn't mean it's victory.

Losing a city doesn't make it 'a defeat'. What makes it 'a defeat' is if your goals aren't achieved and you're forced to lose or change them dramatically for the enemy beyond planned losses.

If you and I are generals in a war, and my goal is to slaughter 1,000,000 of your troops, and I set a trap at one of my towns for you to bring all your forces to, and then I proceed to kill 1,000,000 of your troops using said trap, I fucking won. I didn't lose because I sacrificed a town I was PLANNING on sacrificing.

[Eazy]

Losing a city doesn't make it 'a defeat'. What makes it 'a defeat' is if your goals aren't achieved and you're forced to lose or change them dramatically for the enemy beyond planned losses.

So, if my goal is to kill a one soldier and then retreat from the city and I kill one soldier and then leave my city - does that mean I won? lold

If you and I are generals in a war, and my goal is to slaughter 1,000,000 of your troops, and I set a trap at one of my towns for you to bring all your forces to, and then I proceed to kill 1,000,000 of your troops using said trap, I fucking won. I didn't lose because I sacrificed a town I was PLANNING on sacrificing.

Probably only in your mind, because you just lost the city and had to retreat.

Just because it's a plan, doesn't mean it's a win. People seem to missing the point.

Losing a city is just... lose. Necessary sacrifice that could be better in the long-time goals? Yes. But it's a defeat nonetheless.

[The Stormbringer]

So, if my goal is to kill a one soldier and then retreat from the city and I kill one soldier and then leave my city - does that mean I won? lold

Probably only in your mind, because you just lost the city and had to retreat.

Just because it's a plan, doesn't mean it's a win. People seem to missing the point.

Losing a city is just... lose. Necessary sacrifice that could be better in the long-time goals? Yes. But it's a defeat nonetheless.

You would be a terrible strategist.

[Varx]

So, if my goal is to kill a one soldier and then retreat from the city and I kill one soldier and then leave my city - does that mean I won? lold



Probably only in your mind, because you just lost the city and had to retreat.

Just because it's a plan, doesn't mean it's a win. People seem to missing the point.

Losing a city is just... lose. Necessary sacrifice that could be better in the long-time goals? Yes. But it's a defeat nonetheless.

omg you are one stubborn Ally fanboy. What part of sacrificing the UC as part of the plan do you not understand? UC was worthless, Sylvanas knows that Kalimdor is what's important for the Horde. UC was merely used as a trap to lure the Alliance leadership and army into one spot and wipe them out. The Alliance lost a good portion of their army and would have lost 99% of its leadership was it not for Jaina.

Just because YOU see a faction losing a City as an automatic loss, despite sylvanas' strategy, just to mend your sensitive alliance ego doesn't make it so.


The Alliance lost that battle, get over your self. In fact they've lost every major battle this expansion so far lmao. Keep your chin up though it's only the beginning.

[Ielenia]

And why would her city fall into Alliance's hands?

"And why would..."? Ok. Y'know what? I'm done with your trolling. If your plan was to make me give up through use of blatant trolling, congratulation, you won the battle. Good day.

[Zulkhan]

No, Sylvanas was just an idiot. She kept splitting up and slowing down the Alliance when she should have let them keep pushing deeper into the obvious trap

Considered how Anduin was saved not one but two times by conveniently miraculous, perfectly timed and utterly unplanned interventions, at least trying to wipe the Alliance's army out before giving the Undercity up wasn't the worst of ideas.

Almost as if she was winging it, or didn't plan this at all. And yet she still wins against the Mariest of Sues. What does that make her...?

I don't know, she sacrificed her own capital to turn a guaranteed loss into a fair success.

[Hyral]

"If you lose your city and kill your own soldiers you win!"

The sylvanas worshipers make that one fake Trudeau quote look smart by comparison.