[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Slant]

For a 5 year old:-

Lidl/Aldi = German/EU - use zero hours contracts. Duhhhhhhh

They don't in Germany. And because I knew you were crazy enough to take the bait, apparently Aldi/Lidl are just copying UK business practices, because... they're run by Brits. It's British people exploiting British people, if anything. See, the UK business isn't run out of Germany. It's run out of Britain. And even then, Lidle/Aldi apparently pay more than anyone else, because they think minimum wage is a joke. Despite the fierce supermarket battle you seem to have going on the market.

So, either you'll admit that British subsidies are run by British, that is you fucked yourself, or you pretend it's run by some dark German Hitler, in which case you just showed how Germany treats Brits better than Brits themselves (Sainsbury et al).

So, which one is it, Dribbles? Is Britain that shite or is Germany that awesome?

[dribbles]

They don't in Germany. And because I knew you were crazy enough to take the bait, apparently Aldi/Lidl are just copying UK business practices, because... they're run by Brits. It's British people exploiting British people, if anything. See, the UK business isn't run out of Germany. It's run out of Britain. And even then, Lidle/Aldi apparently pay more than anyone else, because they think minimum wage is a joke. Despite the fierce supermarket battle you seem to have going on the market.

So, either you'll admit that British subsidies are run by British, that is you fucked yourself, or you pretend it's run by some dark German Hitler, in which case you just showed how Germany treats Brits better than Brits themselves (Sainsbury et al).

So, which one is it, Dribbles? Is Britain that shite or is Germany that awesome?

Germany would be more awesome if it was outside the EU, and so will the UK.

[Slant]

Germany would be more awesome if it was outside the EU, and so will the UK.

No, Germany wouldn't. Just from the simplest citizen's point of view, so that even you may understand it, Germany wouldn't be more awesome. I couldn't go to Denmark on whim to visit the beach. I couldn't just pop over to France to buy some cheese. And if I did, I would have to go to the frickin' bank first to get some Francs, because apparently we don't give banks enough money already. And imagine I went to France to buy an electric appliance instead of Cheese. Half the time it wouldn't work the way I expected it to. Don't get me started on the UK that to this day hasn't gotten sensible power plugs.

That's just the bare simplest day-to-day stuff that everyone but you enjoys. In the meantime, whenever you go abroad to continental Europe, I imagine you must be furious that nobody at any border tells you to stop and show your passport. Or searches your vehicle, because you were unlucky, costing you at least an hour at the border. If you're lucky and it's not vacation season, in which case... I hope you brought enough to eat and drink for a long, long stay. When you buy your gaming hardware from a German shop, you must be absolutely livid that you can actually demand them to take it back without any need to explain why. That you actually have consumer choice, instead of just listening about it on the TV like some mythical concept that is hard to find.

Do you actually cry a little sometimes when you see people in Rome paying in Euros and knowing they drew that very same banknote from an ATM in Helsinki? While you can't get further than Calais before you have to hit an ATM and draw money in Euros? Or, worse, go to a bank and tell them to change your money while thanking them for only ripping you off a little bit with those exchanges rates?

If I was living in your fantasy world, I'd probably want to shoot myself in the face with a bazooka. It's a shit world you're dreaming about. It's a fucked up, bullshit world. And it's no fun, either.

[dribbles]

No, Germany wouldn't. Just from the simplest citizen's point of view, so that even you may understand it, Germany wouldn't be more awesome. I couldn't go to Denmark on whim to visit the beach. I couldn't just pop over to France to buy some cheese. And if I did, I would have to go to the frickin' bank first to get some Francs, because apparently we don't give banks enough money already. And imagine I went to France to buy an electric appliance instead of Cheese. Half the time it wouldn't work the way I expected it to. Don't get me started on the UK that to this day hasn't gotten sensible power plugs.

That's just the bare simplest day-to-day stuff that everyone but you enjoys. In the meantime, whenever you go abroad to continental Europe, I imagine you must be furious that nobody at any border tells you to stop and show your passport. Or searches your vehicle, because you were unlucky, costing you at least an hour at the border. If you're lucky and it's not vacation season, in which case... I hope you brought enough to eat and drink for a long, long stay. When you buy your gaming hardware from a German shop, you must be absolutely livid that you can actually demand them to take it back without any need to explain why. That you actually have consumer choice, instead of just listening about it on the TV like some mythical concept that is hard to find.

Do you actually cry a little sometimes when you see people in Rome paying in Euros and knowing they drew that very same banknote from an ATM in Helsinki? While you can't get further than Calais before you have to hit an ATM and draw money in Euros? Or, worse, go to a bank and tell them to change your money while thanking them for only ripping you off a little bit with those exchanges rates?

If I was living in your fantasy world, I'd probably want to shoot myself in the face with a bazooka. It's a shit world you're dreaming about. It's a fucked up, bullshit world. And it's no fun, either.

When did you last go to Denmark to visit the beach? When did you "pop" over to France to buy some cheese? To buy an electric appliance? I bet not more than a handful of times... yet you make it sound like it is a daily occurrence. The "simplest day to day stuff" yet for 99.999999999% of people your scenarios just never happen.

Look we have sensible electric plugs with something called an earth, unlike in the EU we don't like to electrocute our people here.

Come on be serious. The same argument was used a few years back when I moved 200 miles from the centre of London - "but how will you get to the theatre?" friends said. When I asked when they last visited the theatre -"3 years ago" was the reply.

You are really scraping the barrel in defence of the EU when those so called benefits you mention don't even apply to 0.00001% of the EU population.

Weak Slanty very very weak. Pop over to France to buy some cheese my arse, more like pop down the road to Lidl.

[Slant]

When did you last go to Denmark to visit the beach? When did you "pop" over to France to buy some cheese? To buy an electric appliance? I bet not more than a handful of times... yet you make it sound like it is a daily occurrence. The "simplest day to day stuff" yet for 99.999999999% of people your scenarios just never happen.

Look we have sensible electric plugs with something called an earth, unlike in the EU we don't like to electrocute our people here.

Come on be serious. The same argument was used a few years back when I moved 200 miles from the centre of London - "but how will you get to the theatre?" friends said. When I asked when they last visited the theatre -"3 years ago" was the reply.

You are really scraping the barrel in defence of the EU when those so called benefits you mention don't even apply to 0.00001% of the EU population.

Weak Slanty very very weak. Pop over to France to buy some cheese my arse, more like pop down the road to Lidl.

I understand how crossing borders is a foreign concept to someone living on an island, but for continental Europeans living near borders, this is reality. And for them it is actually very normal to buy from across the "border". The borders are gone. They buy wherevery they want to buy for whatever reason they like. That is consumer friendly. That you dismiss my examples doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just means you have no idea how border people think. You have no idea whatsoever. It's sad that you even think yourself qualified to comment on anything outside the UK. And I'm not even getting into the idiocy about the EU not having earth on plugs. Do you think electrics work differently in the EU? That somehow we can make electric power work physically different by EU regulation? Goddamn, you are absolutely bonkers.

[Pann]

Not those companies fault you have shitty laws.

That's a rather strong statement. Perhaps you could explain UK law and what exactly is shitty about it?

[Vankrys]

That's a rather strong statement. Perhaps you could explain UK law and what exactly is shitty about it?

we were talking about zero hours contract.

Please, feel free to explain how it works and why it's not a shitty practice. Emphasize on how ot could not be replace by more worker friendly hiring practice without affecting competitivity.

[Pann]

we were talking about zero hours contract.

Please, feel free to explain how it works and why it's not a shitty practice. Emphasize on how ot could not be replace by more worker friendly hiring practice without affecting competitivity.

I know you are.

I have already done so and I am not the one making such assertions so there is no need for me to waste my time going to further detail. However since you seem to believe that it is a shitty practice perhaps you could explain what exactly UK law is regrading zero-hour contracts and what is shitty about it?

[Slant]

I know you are.

I have already done so and I am not the one making such assertions so there is no need for me to waste my time going to further detail. However since you seem to believe that it is a shitty practice perhaps you could explain what exactly UK law is regrading zero-hour contracts and what is shitty about it?

Basically, it goes against all labour protection principles. It's all obligations to the employee and no risk for the employer. Unless the employee can choose to refuse to come to work because it doesn't fit into his schedule? Or he gets some sort of minimum income through such a zero hour contract? I mean, even then it would be highly questionable, but if he doesn't, it's a despicable practice.

[Vankrys]

I know you are.

I have already done so and I am not the one making such assertions so there is no need for me to waste my time going to further detail. However since you seem to believe that it is a shitty practice perhaps you could explain what exactly UK law is regrading zero-hour contracts and what is shitty about it?

deflecting i see

i only know what i read on wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-hour_contract

A zero-hour contract is a type of contract between an employer and a worker, where the employer is not obliged to provide any minimum working hours, while the worker is not obliged to accept any work offered.[1] The employee may sign an agreement to be available for work as and when required, so that no particular number of hours or times of work are specified.

...

Workers subject to zero-hour contracts are vulnerable to exploitation as they may be denied work at any time for any reason, including declining to respond to a demand to work. A refusal to work in any one instance for any reason can result in a prolonged period of lack of work.[35] In 2014, millions of workers were still trapped in low-paid, highly insecure jobs, where mistreatment is the norm and where there is limited prospect of escape, said the Trade Union Congress.[citation needed] Due to the uncertainty of the workers' schedules, zero-hour contracts present problems for workers with children due to the difficulty of arranging child care.

this is terrible. What if you have a family to feed, mortgage to pay, a life to live. You need and want a job that you can count on, you need to know your paycheck will still be there at the end of the month.

I can imagine living in fear that next month you might not be able to pay rent or put food on the table simply because of such contract.

[Pann]

deflecting i see

i only know what i read on wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-hour_contract


this is terrible. What if you have a family to feed, mortgage to pay, a life to live. You need and want a job that you can count on, you need to know your paycheck will still be there at the end of the month.

I can imagine living in fear that next month you might not be able to pay rent or put food on the table simply because of such contract.

I am not deflecting anything. I am asking you to explain what exactly the laws regarding zero-hour contracts in the UK are, not a quote from Wikipedia, and what exactly is bad about them.

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It's obvious but I guess you are deliberately ignoring it for some reason.

If it is so obvious you'd be able to quote the relevant laws and explain what exactly is bad about them.

[Kronik85]

I am not deflecting anything. I am asking you to explain what exactly the laws regarding zero-hour contracts in the UK are, not a quote from Wikipedia, and what exactly is bad about them.

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If it is so obvious you'd be able to quote the relevant laws and explain what exactly is bad about them.

My main gripe with mine was that you can't refuse extra hours, which in turn means they are not flexible in the slightest. All the power rests with the employer and none with the employee, you get given your hours and you work those hours or you get fired.

The way they should be structured is that employers offer hours, workers agree to them. If employers want to be guaranteed a certain amount of labour they should have to offer proper contracts with more security to their employees.

[Vankrys]

I am not deflecting anything. I am asking you to explain what exactly the laws regarding zero-hour contracts in the UK are, not a quote from Wikipedia, and what exactly is bad about them.

And i asked you why do you think it's a good practice for the UK workforce.

And i asked first.

And i did respond to your question; exploitation, vulnerability, trapped in a poverty spiral, no vision no plan for the future, yaddi yadda.

you are deflecting, you are not putting forth argument in favor of zero hour contract. You're refusing the debate. You are basically just trolling then.

[Pann]

My main gripe with mine was that you can't refuse extra hours, which in turn means they are not flexible in the slightest. All the power rests with the employer and none with the employee, you get given your hours and you work those hours or you get fired.

You can, in theory, having no set hours is a two way street meaning that both the employer and the worker are able to alter their working patterns. Consistently refusing to work extra hours may well be grounds to terminate employment however I have never know this to happen (not saying it does not) and it certainly not the best way to maintain staff morale. There are other laws in place which would mean that terminating employment based on the worker's refusal to work erratic hours is a risky, and likely costly, strategy for the business.

[Kronik85]

You can, in theory, having no set hours is a two way street meaning that both the employer and the worker are able to alter their working patterns. Consistently refusing to work extra hours may well be grounds to terminate employment however I have never know this to happen (not saying it does not) and it certainly not the best way to maintain staff morale. There are other laws in place which would mean that terminating employment based on the worker's refusal to work erratic hours is a risky, and likely costly, strategy for the business.

No my contract said in clear terms "you must accept all hours given" and rotas were done 1 week in advance. There was no flexibility and there are no laws protecting employees from this behaviour.

[Pann]

And i asked you why do you think it's a good practice for the UK workforce.

And i asked first.

And i did respond to your question; exploitation, vulnerability, trapped in a poverty spiral, no vision no plan for the future, yaddi yadda.

you are deflecting, you are not putting forth argument in favor of zero hour contract. You're refusing the debate. You are basically just trolling then.

So? I have already answered this.

No, I asked someone else first you butted in with a silly question.

You responded however your response was not to the question I asked. Again what are the UK laws with regard to zero-hour contracts? Until you can establish that you know and understand what the laws are you cannot make statements about exploitation.

It is not my fault that you cannot answer what I have asked.

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Why exactly are you attacking me for replying to some other person about this.

Off on ignore you go - your eternal bickering is annoying.

I am not attacking you. Asking you to back up your statement is not an attack.

Okey-dokey. Ta-ta. I understand that is much easier for you than explaining your statement.

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No my contract said in clear terms "you must accept all hours given" and rotas were done 1 week in advance. There was no flexibility and there are no laws protecting employees from this behaviour.

There are plenty of laws protecting employees from this type of behaviour however given the nature of the majority of zero-hours jobs it is not usually worth the time or effort of the employee to challenge this and in many cases they simply find an alternative job when treated this way.

[Kronik85]

There are plenty of laws protecting employees from this type of behaviour however given the nature of the majority of zero-hours jobs it is not usually worth the time or effort of the employee to challenge this and in many cases they simply find an alternative job when treated this way.

Quote them then, because I couldn't find any. If you're classed as an employee you must work any hours given, if you're a worker you can turn down work but you're not protected by unfair dismissal or time off for emergencies. I was an employee, I had no input on what hours I worked.

[Pann]

Quote them then, because I couldn't find any. If you're classed as an employee you must work any hours given, if you're a worker you can turn down work but you're not protected by unfair dismissal or time off for emergencies. I was an employee, I had no input on what hours I worked.

All employees in the UK regards of the hours they are contracted to work are protected from unfair dismissal.

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Zero hour contracts

Zero hour contracts are also known as casual contracts. Zero hour contracts are usually for ‘piece work’ or ‘on call’ work, eg interpreters.

This means:

they are on call to work when you need them
you don’t have to give them work
they don’t have to do work when asked

Zero hour workers are entitled to statutory annual leave and the National Minimum Wage in the same way as regular workers.

You can’t do anything to stop a zero hours worker from getting work elsewhere. The law says they can ignore a clause in their contract if it bans them from:

looking for work
accepting work from another employer

You are still responsible for health and safety of staff on zero hour contracts

https://www.gov.uk/contract-types-an...hour-contracts


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Zero Hours Myth Busting

FACT: Zero hours workers are not obliged to accept work

If the zero hours contract is a genuinely casual arrangement, the worker is not obliged to accept any of the hours offered.

There is a risk that a worker who persistently refuses work when an employer offers it may ultimately influence the employer to terminate the arrangement. However, it is not good practice for an employer to try and force the worker to work, as this may call into question whether or not this is a genuinely casual arrangement, and it is also unlikely to help with staff morale and productivity.

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4469

[Kronik85]

All employees in the UK regards of the hours they are contracted to work are protected from unfair dismissal.

--------

Zero hour contracts

Zero hour contracts are also known as casual contracts. Zero hour contracts are usually for ‘piece work’ or ‘on call’ work, eg interpreters.

This means:

they are on call to work when you need them
you don’t have to give them work
they don’t have to do work when asked

Zero hour workers are entitled to statutory annual leave and the National Minimum Wage in the same way as regular workers.

You can’t do anything to stop a zero hours worker from getting work elsewhere. The law says they can ignore a clause in their contract if it bans them from:

looking for work
accepting work from another employer

You are still responsible for health and safety of staff on zero hour contracts

https://www.gov.uk/contract-types-an...hour-contracts

What are you trying to show with this? I just explained to you that there are two types of employment status you can have under Zero Hours. One is "worker" where you can turn down hours but have no protections. The other is "employee" where you can't refuse work but benefit from standard protections.

[Pann]

What are you trying to show with this? I just explained to you that there are two types of employment status you can have under Zero Hours. One is "worker" where you can turn down hours but have no protections. The other is "employee" where you can't refuse work but benefit from standard protections.

Employees have additional rights from workers one such right is to be able to request flexible working hours and they are also entitled to time off in emergencies.