The Horde is split in half

[CreatureLives]

good thing the Horde is fully behind Sylvanas in-game, minus Saurfang


the haters on the forums are still forced to follow their warchief in-game, its glorious !

i wouldn't say Baine is "fully behind Sylvanas"

[Haven]

Well gee, you sure got me there. The Alliance were clearly trying to wipe out the entire goblin race and were actively hunting them down, we can tell from the story that the goblins weren't at the wrong place at the wrong time or anything, they were simply being hunted by the Alliance. Because that's what genocide is, and that's what happened, obviously.

And obviously the entire goblin race -- which apparently consists of about ~20 goblins or so -- was on that boat. Obviously. No other ships escape except for Trade Prince Gallywix. No other ships were in the entire port of Kezan, and no others escaped. Clearly.

Sorry, but I just can't take this response seriously.

PS: Shooting a single goblin ship is obviously comparable to burning down an entire capital city (containing more than once race, even) of innocents alive. This clearly isn't grasping for straws to defend your honorable warchief's noble and respectable actions.

I'm not claiming any "honorable and respectable" bullshit. I just follow the accepted definition to the letter. Don't make things up. Goblins had one ship. Play the game and see. It takes about half an hour to level your goblin to that point. Intent doesn't matter at all. Sylvanas did not intend to hunt down and eradicate every single night elf, but Teldrassil was somehow genocide - fine, then sinking a ship with the entire surviving population of Kezan is genocide as well. No double standards. If you have a problem with scale, let me remind you that all gnomes are a small percent of survivors from one city. All void elves are less than a village's worth of people. Same for darkspear trolls. Tauren were on the verge of extinction when they entered the Horde. Et cetera.

Apparently it's intentional. Sylvanas and Saurfang embody two sides of the same coin. And we have to face the Horde's past to know the Horde's future.

Guess who embodied both sides at once? Garrosh. Combine Sylvanas' ruthlessness and Saurfang's honour and you get someone very much like Garrosh.

Blizzard must be regretting killing him off.

So much truth in this. In Cataclysm, he felt like a perfect warchief, a true warrior orc, balancing rage and discipline. But they couldn't handle a character that wasn't lawful good.

[TheFirstOnes]

Just reminding here that Alliance attempted to wipe out the entire population of Kezan. "No witnesses".

Goblins who were mining and making weapons out of Azerite.

...

[Kwento]

Goblins who were mining and making weapons out of Azerite.

...

He’s talking about goblin starting zone where Alliance were trying to sink a single ship that was escaping from Kezan.

[therealbowser]

I'm not claiming any "honorable and respectable" bullshit. I just follow the accepted definition to the letter. Don't make things up. Goblins had one ship. Play the game and see. It takes about half an hour to level your goblin to that point. Intent doesn't matter at all. Sylvanas did not intend to hunt down and eradicate every single night elf, but Teldrassil was somehow genocide - fine, then sinking a ship with the entire surviving population of Kezan is genocide as well. No double standards. If you have a problem with scale, let me remind you that all gnomes are a small percent of survivors from one city. All void elves are less than a village's worth of people. Same for darkspear trolls. Tauren were on the verge of extinction when they entered the Horde. Et cetera.

Nah, you are part of the Sylvanas defense force and the Alliance is obviously as bad as Sylvanas because they fired upon a single goblin ship that miraculously contained the hundreds, if not thousands of goblins that were a part of the entire population of Kezan. Oh, no, they obviously cloned these goblins after the fact, or perhaps goblins simply age from infant to adult in a matter of days. Clearly this is why there are so many goblins.

This is absolutely ludicrous. You can do better than this, but I don't care to humor this any further.

[Kaver]

Just reminding here that Alliance attempted to wipe out the entire population of Kezan. "No witnesses".

Gallywix blew up Kezan because he dug too deep.

[Haven]

Nah, you are part of the Sylvanas defense force and the Alliance is obviously as bad as Sylvanas because they fired upon a single goblin ship that miraculously contained the hundreds, if not thousands of goblins that were a part of the entire population of Kezan. Oh, no, they obviously cloned these goblins after the fact, or perhaps goblins simply age from infant to adult in a matter of days. Clearly this is why there are so many goblins.

This is absolutely ludicrous. You can do better than this, but I don't care to humor this any further.

Facts stay facts. One ship is one ship. You're forgetting the scale in lore vs scale in game. In game Teldrassil had like what, 50 night elves on it? 70? No big deal, right? Lorewise, it was populated by thousands. Same here. Lorewise, that was goblin Titanic that carried hundreds if not thousands.

Though something tells me the real reason is that goblins are green, ugly, and Horde, so it doesn't matter how many of them die, while night elves are pretty and Alliance, so their lives are precious, right?

Gallywix blew up Kezan because he dug too deep.

It was because Cataclysm happened. In an expansion that was called, you know, "Cataclysm". Deathwing visited Kezan and fucked it up.

[Arrashi]

It was because Cataclysm happened. In an expansion that was called, you know, "Cataclysm". Deathwing visited Kezan and fucked it up.

I think they actually retconed it. Yes, they retconned giant dragon shitting into volcano. Now it was natural occurence or something.

[Aucald]

I think they actually retconed it. Yes, they retconned giant dragon shitting into volcano. Now it was natural occurence or something.

It's both, from my understanding of "Before the Storm." Gallywix's voracious mining had already destabilized Kezan, and Deathwing's attack (causing the volcano to erupt) was essentially the straw that broke the camel's back. Deathwing himself could've caused some major damage to the surface, but piled on top of Gallywix's damage it made Kezan begin to fall apart.

[Enthusiastic Steward]

Now I may be wrong, but I believe Alliance tried to capture him before he even reached the maelstrom.

They did. He was captured en route to the Maelstrom and then subsequently freed by Goblins

My point is you can blame someone's action in the past based on the uncertainty of the future.

And my point is still that the decision was a stupid one.

SI:7 or Varian couldn't have the knowledge, in that moment, of what you claim, that Thrall and only Thrall could save the world.

Ignorance is also not a defense. Try it some time, see how it goes. Also, it is not what I claim. It is what the game claims. The game states that Thrall is arguably the world's most powerful living shaman and also states he is the leader of the efforts at the Maelstrom. His effort is crucial. The game says so, not "I claim".

My example with Dragonmaw is to point out, that following the 'blame in the past, for the crime/event in the future' line of thought, all actions against the aspects would be equally responsible for the end of the world, even without previous knowledge.

This is trickier, given the time removal from the events of Cataclysm and everything that transpired in between. Events would have turned out differently long before the Cataclysm had the Dragonmaw maintained control of the red dragonflight indefinitely. But I would still argue that long term this was a poor decision as was kidnapping Thrall, which is kind of the point.

In fact I do, for what I know Dragonmaw had success in her capture and she was forced to birth a whole clutch of eggs for the Black dragonflight (you still can see those in Grim Batol).

Which then broke free and turned on the Dragonmaw, decimating the clan and scattering it to the wind. A small contingent made it back to Outland and allied with Illidan before being defeated again, and the small outpost clinging to life in Twilight Highlands.

And last I checked Dragonmaw Clan was part of the present Horde, was Garrosh himself, invited them and he even made their leader Warlord Zaela his mate. I don't know what happend after Siege of Orgrimmar for them though.

Some members are still around, but the clan as an entity is effectively non-existent in practice.

And about Thrall capture plan, you can call it stupid but it's undeniable it has value.

Of course it has some value, but what you want to look at is a cost-benefit assessment, and whether any likely costs would outweigh any beneficial value.

You would have a trading bargain with the Horde, could be even used to avoid an attack in one of alliance's weakened settlements.

And how would that work? Not as a trade, as soon as Thrall is given back Garrosh would attack anyway. Kept as a hostage, "Attack and we kill him!" style wouldn't work either with Garrosh.

And like I said, if Varian was willing to kill Moira in Ironforge soil, amidst a Dark Iron rebellion, the heir of Magni himself. Sorry I don't see how he would be worried about an attack from Garrosh.

He's not. I agreed on this point saying he's not concerned. I'm arguing he should have been and NOT being concerned was stupid and reckless. Being irrational and impulsive isn't a defense either. He SHOULD have known better and SHOULD have been concerned for all the reasons I listed. He would have completely botched an opportunity to let the Horde splinter, which it did culminating with the Siege of Orgrimmar. I'm not sure what sort of argument you are trying to make here. I'm saying that capturing Thrall was a stupid move, and your argument seems to be, "Well Varian doesn't care." Like no shit what's WHY he made a stupid move.

[Beerbill Society]

They did. He was captured en route to the Maelstrom and then subsequently freed by Goblins


And my point is still that the decision was a stupid one.


Ignorance is also not a defense. Try it some time, see how it goes. Also, it is not what I claim. It is what the game claims. The game states that Thrall is arguably the world's most powerful living shaman and also states he is the leader of the efforts at the Maelstrom. His effort is crucial. The game says so, not "I claim".

This is trickier, given the time removal from the events of Cataclysm and everything that transpired in between. Events would have turned out differently long before the Cataclysm had the Dragonmaw maintained control of the red dragonflight indefinitely. But I would still argue that long term this was a poor decision as was kidnapping Thrall, which is kind of the point.


Which then broke free and turned on the Dragonmaw, decimating the clan and scattering it to the wind. A small contingent made it back to Outland and allied with Illidan before being defeated again, and the small outpost clinging to life in Twilight Highlands.

Some members are still around, but the clan as an entity is effectively non-existent in practice.


Of course it has some value, but what you want to look at is a cost-benefit assessment, and whether any likely costs would outweigh any beneficial value.


And how would that work? Not as a trade, as soon as Thrall is given back Garrosh would attack anyway. Kept as a hostage, "Attack and we kill him!" style wouldn't work either with Garrosh.


He's not. I agreed on this point saying he's not concerned. I'm arguing he should have been and NOT being concerned was stupid and reckless. Being irrational and impulsive isn't a defense either. He SHOULD have known better and SHOULD have been concerned for all the reasons I listed. He would have completely botched an opportunity to let the Horde splinter, which it did culminating with the Siege of Orgrimmar. I'm not sure what sort of argument you are trying to make here. I'm saying that capturing Thrall was a stupid move, and your argument seems to be, "Well Varian doesn't care." Like no shit what's WHY he made a stupid move.

If we agree that Thrall's capture plan occur before be reached the Maelstrom, how could anyone know Thrall's potential as a world savior? I can be wrong here, it has been a long time that I have done Goblins quests and Cataclysm start quest on the Horde side, so I don't recall Thrall being treated as a savior before reaching the maelstrom. I'm pretty sure none of alliance initial quests refer him as such, up until Deepholm starting quests that they make you speak with him (not sure if ally have to though).

About the rest, I think we will agree in disagree, I still think the plan of his capture valid, if you exclude the goblin genocide fiasco.

Alliance and Horde were out for full war at the beginning of cataclysm (Vash'jir beggining is all about it), if I was in Varian shoes I would have Thrall, his wife and even Greatmother Geyah marked as a fair target for capture, anything that could provide advantage against the enemy (moral, psychological or physical).

It's not like the Horde wouldn't do anything different, they tried capture Anduin at MoP.

[sillag]

i wouldn't say Baine is "fully behind Sylvanas"

why not? he clearly is. he supports her unquestioningly and accepts all her decisions so far as we've seen. one sarcastic "for the horde" isn't really enough from the guy whose hero father challenged the previous warchief to a duel to the death for much less than sylvanas has done.

baine doesn't even care about the blight being used to kill his own people who he sent over the seas to protect sylvanas, he's just a little sad that saurfang was left to die. but he drops this grievance for no reason minutes later and is happy to sit beside sylvanas on her airship.

i mean he can prove me wrong and start a vol'jin style rebellion if he wants but we all know he won't.

[Super Dickmann]

why not? he clearly is. he supports her unquestioningly and accepts all her decisions so far as we've seen. one sarcastic "for the horde" isn't really enough from the guy whose hero father challenged the previous warchief to a duel to the death for much less than sylvanas has done.

baine doesn't even care about the blight being used to kill his own people who he sent over the seas to protect sylvanas, he's just a little sad that saurfang was left to die. but he drops this grievance for no reason minutes later and is happy to sit beside sylvanas on her airship.

i mean he can prove me wrong and start a vol'jin style rebellion if he wants but we all know he won't.

The one thing militantly pro and anti Sylvanas posters can agree is that Baine is a pussy who shouldn't be trusted with any power.

[sillag]

The one thing militantly pro and anti Sylvanas posters can agree is that Baine is a pussy who shouldn't be trusted with any power.

baine is unquestionably the worst character in all of warcraft.

he literally cares nothing for the ideals or well-being of the tauren people or the horde or the earth mother just so long as he gets to sit in mulgore wearing his feather headdress and superficially looking like a tauren chieftan

[Super Dickmann]

baine is unquestionably the worst character in all of warcraft.

he literally cares nothing for the ideals or well-being of the tauren people or the horde or the earth mother just so long as he gets to sit in mulgore wearing his feather headdress and superficially looking like a tauren chieftan

Baine is schizophrenic as well. In doing the Horde quests, in two zone hand ins, I saw the following.

1. "The Warchief will be told of what happened, she'll know best what to do "
2. "Thank you for upholding the Horde's honor, even if the Warchief might not understand."

Not that any of these activities had fuck all to do with honor. I could be playing the most dishonourable piece of shit to ever live and I'd still act in my interests in making sure Zandalar isn't taking over by a giant maggot.

[Enthusiastic Steward]

About the rest, I think we will agree in disagree, I still think the plan of his capture valid, if you exclude the goblin genocide fiasco.

Of course it was valid. That doesn't mean it wasn't irresponsible. They are not mutually exclusive. Just because Varian didn't know how stupid and reckless the plan was doesn't magically make it NOT stupid and reckless. You insist on focusing on whether or not Varian had a full understanding of how poorly conceived his plan was because he didn't have all the information at his disposal and jumped at a perceived target of opportunity, but that's tangential to the point I'm making which you don't seem to grasp.

Looking at the big picture, which we as players have the luxury of being able to do, the decision was stupid and put everyone in the world at risk. It's not a debate about whether or not Varian knew, that is irrelevant to the decision being poor from the god's eye view which is all I've been trying to say. The original comment came from Varian being held up as some noble paragon but it is also important to remember that he makes mistakes and almost blundered his way into getting everyone killed. That's it. That he didn't know what he was doing doesn't suddenly change his actions to something else.

[masterjc]

Just reminding here that Alliance attempted to wipe out the entire population of Kezan. "No witnesses".

we speak about same population, that was enslaved by soon-to-be horde leader?
and this was not whole population. it was part of cartel. and we see that there are lots of goblins in Kezan anyway.

[Haven]

we speak about same population, that was enslaved by soon-to-be horde leader?
and this was not whole population. it was part of cartel. and we see that there are lots of goblins in Kezan anyway.

Same shit as Teldrassil really.

[Tripzzz]

Same shit as Teldrassil really.

Not even close. The novellas make it clear the majority of night elves lived in Teldrassil. The goblins on that ship were a fraction of all the goblins. Gadgetzan, Rachet, Booty Bay all have tons of goblins. Not to mention the goblins on the ship weren't even killed.

[Haven]

Not even close. The novellas make it clear the majority of night elves lived in Teldrassil. The goblins on that ship were a fraction of all the goblins. Gadgetzan, Rachet, Booty Bay all have tons of goblins. Not to mention the goblins on the ship weren't even killed.

Attempted genocide is still a warcrime.