Lillian Voss, former defender of the alliance

[Evilfish]

Last I checked, Voss also never followed the Death Knights. She does follow Sylvanas and personally call for undead to be raised.

Alliance OP? The Horde shit all over them during the pre-patch apart from the Pyhrric loss at Lordaeron. The excuses are getting lamer by the minute.

Not Voss, but are there no death knights in the Alliance? There are. Or are they "nice" Death Knights? They don't raise mindless undead cause that would be... evil. Voss is simply a character who accepted her situation and puts her experience to use. In fact just today (spoiler) I watched her try to help a former kul tiran commander accept her new ... life as a Forsaken. It was NICE!

It's amusing how certain people turn against any character that supports Sylvanas. Almost looks like irrational bias.

[gcsmith]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Melos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War
the spartans did it.

Sieges are rarely good. You starve or thirst innocent people.

- - - Updated - - -

Not Voss, but are there no death knights in the Alliance? There are. Or are they "nice" Death Knights? They don't raise mindless undead cause that would be... evil. Voss is simply a character who accepted her situation and puts her experience to use. In fact just today (spoiler) I watched her try to help a former kul tiran commander accept her new ... life as a Forsaken. It was NICE!

It's amusing how certain people turn against any character that supports Sylvanas. Almost looks like irrational bias.

People are against her character because her suddent "In line with Sylvannas" shirks everything we know about her character. She hates necromancers, and is more in line with Vanilla Sylvannas than Legion/BFA sylvannas.

[Jastall]

Not Voss, but are there no death knights in the Alliance? There are. Or are they "nice" Death Knights? They don't raise mindless undead cause that would be... evil. Voss is simply a character who accepted her situation and puts her experience to use. In fact just today (spoiler) I watched her try to help a former kul tiran commander accept her new ... life as a Forsaken. It was NICE!

It's amusing how certain people turn against any character that supports Sylvanas. Almost looks like irrational bias.

There are also Death Knights in the Horde, so that excuse also doesn't work and you're running out of them quite fast. Voss was neutral and should have stayed neutral, not become a groupie like every other damn Forsaken in existence.

Yeah, wanting characters to behave in consistent ways is irrational. Why not have Sylvanas turn into a gardening hippie tomorrow morning? That shows she "matured" overnight so obviously it is good character development.

[Deleted]

There's nothing surprising about Voss joining the horde effort.
What I can't stand tho, is how they butchered Rexxar's character. He would never stand for this shit, much like Saurfang.

I dunno man. Rexxar was always the "survival of the fittest" kind of guy.

[Arrashi]

Ehm, what? When did that ever happen in canon?

I think that he means random dungeon quests who never had confirmation which side did them.

[Malikath]

Sieges are rarely good. You starve or thirst innocent people.

lysander was almost anduin level of goody-goody, especially for a spartan.
"Facing starvation and disease from the prolonged siege, Athens surrendered in 404 BC, and its allies soon surrendered as well. The democrats at Samos, loyal to the bitter last, held on slightly longer, and were allowed to flee with their lives. The surrender stripped Athens of its walls, its fleet, and all of its overseas possessions. Corinth and Thebes demanded that Athens should be destroyed and all its citizens should be enslaved. However, the Spartans announced their refusal to destroy a city that had done a good service at a time of greatest danger to Greece, and took Athens into their own system. Athens was "to have the same friends and enemies" as Sparta"

[Alex86el]

well, sure i gree that the alliance dislikes the undead, including the forsaken.
with good reason i might add, both because of arthas, and because of the forsakens' actions.

and i agree that it should not be like that.
not all forsaken are evil etc. theres good ones too.

but that whole idea that they are a "race" and that they should not die out, is absurd.

they should be treated fairly and left alone to live their remaining lives as they please,
but they should die out at some point, by natural means of course.

its like saying leppers (or whatever other condition) is a "race" and they should be "preserved". obviously not.

[Oakshana]

Your title, is that the name of the quest?

Lillian Voss was, to my knowledge, never a defender of the Alliance.

She was breed to kill the forsaken. Her father forced her to learn the arts of mages, rogues, warlocks to make her a better hunter of the undead. She was meant to be a weapon of the Crusade.

This is something I have never understood. If she was such an important member of the Crusade as her father was trying to make her out to be, WHY was she buried at Deathknell? I would think she should have been buried at Tyr's Hand at the very least.

This is always kind of been a plot device I didn't like that shoe-horns her into being raised as Forsaken for the sake of story.

[Cyanu]

i don't see why people get so frustrated when something a character says is wrong, or wrong according to them

characters should have flaws and should be wrong about some things if they're to be interesting, also it's totally cool if characters change their mind over time

Voss has a strange pov but it does make sense, the alliance historically has been all about the holy light, knights in shining armor purging the undead whenever they see them, horde on the other hand has embraced the forsaken in their ranks as equals to the point their current leader is forsaken, a token of goodwill from anduin that eventually turned into a fiasco is not enough to erase generations of humans hating the undead, in fact initially voss hated herself for being undead

Rexxar's loyalty to the horde is not that surprising either, other than his beasts it's all he has and Jaina which is the alliance target he focuses on has indeed become her father the man that Rexxar had slain in the past, it's very consistent to oppose her like her father

[Syegfryed]

I dunno man. Rexxar was always the "survival of the fittest" kind of guy.

and that nature/animal kind of guy, worshiping the Lich queen would not match too well

[Malikath]

and that nature/animal kind of guys, worshiping the Lich queen would not match too well

unless she's using her nature as a banshee to mind-control him.

[Kazmodius]

Rexxar had always unflinching Horde loyalty. Should the Horde need him, he'll answer, it was like that all the time. But it is really... weird he's now a dum dum that wants to go fight Jaina. I guess he got lobotomised so he can get killed by her, I don't know.

You're right about Rexxar, unlike the idiot you replied to that believed he wasn't loyal to the horde firsthand.

The only thing you missed at comprehending is why Rexxar want to fight Jaina. It's because he believe she went back on her words and on the friendship Jaina, Thrall and Rexxar kind of had during the events of W3 TFT.

[Deleted]

so while questing i came upon this interesting bit of dialogue.
and i quote Lillian Voss

In life, i was raised to hate the undead, trained to destroy them.

When i became Forsaken, I hated myself most of all.3

But now I see it is the Alliance that fosters this malice. The human kingdoms shun their former brothers and sisters because we remind them what's lurking beneath the facade of flesh.

Its time to end their cycle of hatred. The Alliance deserves to fall.



Its an interesting reflection upon the horde vs alliance relation.
I would add a picture of the ingame dialogue if i knew how.

And this falls entirely flat when any kind of freaking reasoning is used. Or when you read the latest book. And when you take into account the new Calia Menethil.
The Alliance was ready to die for the Forsaken and Anduin was near going to war to save some of them.

[Evilfish]

There are also Death Knights in the Horde, so that excuse also doesn't work and you're running out of them quite fast. Voss was neutral and should have stayed neutral, not become a groupie like every other damn Forsaken in existence.

Yeah, wanting characters to behave in consistent ways is irrational. Why not have Sylvanas turn into a gardening hippie tomorrow morning? That shows she "matured" overnight so obviously it is good character development.

But according to you there is no issue with raising dead in the Horde, mindless of otherwise, it never really was which is kinda your whole point... Hypocrite.

And turning Sylvanas nice is even worse than killing her. Sylvanas is popular because she's a nasty undead banshee. Voss was a Forsaken who has undergone a very difficult change, in the process being sentenced to death by her own father. She fits the Forsaken bill, being shun by the living for being what she was, adapting to her new existence. These things persists through her development. You just sound like another bitter Alliance fanboy that growls at anything that is near Sylvanas.

[Theodarzna]

so while questing i came upon this interesting bit of dialogue.
and i quote Lillian Voss

In life, i was raised to hate the undead, trained to destroy them.

When i became Forsaken, I hated myself most of all.3

But now I see it is the Alliance that fosters this malice. The human kingdoms shun their former brothers and sisters because we remind them what's lurking beneath the facade of flesh.

Its time to end their cycle of hatred. The Alliance deserves to fall.



Its an interesting reflection upon the horde vs alliance relation.
I would add a picture of the ingame dialogue if i knew how.

It also makes zero sense given the Before the Storm novel in which Humans wanted to accept them and Sylvanas killed those Forsaken. Moreover Lillian Voss hates Necromancers and Necromancy, and Sylvanas openly does Necromancy, even creating the equivalent of mindless Scourge in Battle for Lordaeron.

But Sylvanas has plot armor a mile thick and seems to be Ian's darling character so the lore will be bent into knots for her sake.

[Noradin]

"Alliance fosters the hatred" -> Alliance literally trying to arrange for Undead and Humans to reunite with their families until Sylvanas shit all over it because Forsaken suddenly realised they had a choice.

But Sylvanas killed almost everyone who knew about it, so only those who are complicit in the murders are left now, and those went along with it because they were fanatics loyal to her in the first place.

[Blodia]

You're right about Rexxar, unlike the idiot you replied to that believed he wasn't loyal to the horde firsthand.

The only thing you missed at comprehending is why Rexxar want to fight Jaina. It's because he believe she went back on her words and on the friendship Jaina, Thrall and Rexxar kind of had during the events of W3 TFT.

I wonder what could've caused her to go back on her words.

[Zuben]

Liadrin and Voss. Two characters I had disliked for a long time that BfA managed to turn into something I can appreciate (well, Liadrin got a headstart in Legion). I still don't want Voss to spring up to Sylvanas's replacement, but generally speaking I kinda like her now. Nice to have Forsaken characters with sound thoughts in the spotlight.

[shaunika123]

She was never part of the Alliance as her father was Highpriest Benedictus Voss of the Scarlet Crusade. Also she was even a boss in Scholomance "working" for Gandling.

Feels like some players are looking for scraps, trying to justify Sylvannas' actions.

Btw. I would bitchslap Saurfang for his "Honour" bullshit. There is no honour in war, killing and being killed.
I would also bitchslap Tyrande for saying "killing innocents for nothing" as it doesn't matter if its for nothing or something as killing innocents is wrong no matter what reason you are trying to justify it with.

there is for orcs, dont get why its hard for you to get that...

I dont know why people are projecting modern day morals onto characters that live in a medieval high fantasy.

there's also a difference between killing innocents for a reason and for no reason, both are "wrong" mind you, but there are degrees of it.

[Skulltaker]

I think a lot of people here like to ignore the amount of animosity that the Horde feels against the Alliance and have a tendency to dismiss the reasons for that animosity.

Firstly, the Horde is its own sovereign nation. The Alliance seems to hold this belief that it has a right to dictate to the Horde how they should conduct themselves. For example, the Alliance is very self justified in attacking the Horde and their warchief in Stormheim.

The Alliance has been openly hostile against the Horde through Legion with zero justification. If you play the Alliance Broken Shore scenario, when it ends it's pretty clear that both Genn and Jaina are out for blood, regardless of what their new king has instructed them to do. The Legion was a threat to all of Azeroth and the Horde fought and bled for Azeroth, same as the Alliance, and was totally prepared to put aside their differences for the common good. What did the Horde get in return? Alliance aggression, an attempt on the warchief, interference with Horde objectives (which were important for the survival of the Forsaken race). There was zero justification for such aggression

Yes I understand that Genn and Jaina were operating under the misapprehension, fueled by their own massive prejudice, that Sylvanas betrayed Varian and acted purposefully to get him killed. But the Horde persepective on the matter is going to be completely different. From the Horde perspective the Horde is the victim. You guys can cry all you want about how "unjustified" it was to start the war. And hell, I might even agree with you. But the simple fact is this: The Alliance provoked the Horde. And it wasn't just a single event. It was there the whole of Legion, when we were supposed to be working together to save the world from a common threat.

What happened at Teldrassil was a direct result of a long escalation of hostilities on the part of the Alliance. Don't expect members of the Horde to just hand wave all that away because things at Teldrassil went a bit too far.

People need to stop blaming Sylvanas for "starting this war". The war didn't start with the invasion of Ashenvale/Darkshore/the burning of Teldrassil. It started when Gen and Jaina decided to blame Sylvanas for the death of Varian Wrynn and used that event as a premise to initiate open hostilities.

Wait, what? The Alliance was openly aggressive towards the Horde? Members of the Horde invaded Azeroth and Alliance territory. Members of the Horde partially carved their 'sovereign nation' out of Alliance territory. Ashenvale and Lordaeron, Silverpine and Azshara. The Horde fought and bled for Azeroth? Really? While the Horde supposedly fought and bled, their warchief couldn't be bothered to fight, and instead wandered off in pursuit of her own goals, and got her nose bloodied for it good, while attempting to subjugate a sentient species, one might add.

Genn and Jaina are prejudiced against Sylvanas? What? You know it isn't prejudice when someone actually tried to murder all your people, right? Sylvanas has proven, time and time again, that she is nothing but a danger to all life on Azeroth, she has proven time and time again that she isn't trustworthy, either.

Who attacked Gilneas? Who experimented on humans to create a weapon of mass destruction? Who destroyed Theramore? Who destroyed an entire druid enclave in Stonetalon? Who keeps stealing land? And the Alliance provoked the Horde?

Give me a break.

And Lilian is just as dumb as the rest of the Forsaken. Maybe the reason the living have nothing but spite for the Forsaken is because they time and time again try to murder people and destroy the land they live in.