Is shadow the worst its ever been?

[Deleted]

Shadow also did crazy dps in TBC

In early TBC that was true, but we didn't scale well damage wise in later content. Tier 6 and Sunwell saw shadow drop off considerably, to the point they were bottom of most meters, but you still wanted two for the Mana regen

[Makabreska]

In early TBC that was true, but we didn't scale well damage wise in later content. Tier 6 and Sunwell saw shadow drop off considerably, to the point they were bottom of most meters, but you still wanted two for the Mana regen

1 spriest + 4 resto shams in one party, Sunwell memories

[sirethas]

There is no skill in shadow for legion, it was literally mash void bolt, cast mind blast when you have a charge and cast mind flay between gcd gaps of void bolt and mind blast, cast mind bender at whatever stack target your latency will allow then voiT. I never ever see top shadow players state this skill based argument, only inexperienced players who've not actually played enough to see just how shallow the gameplay was. Pretty much every varience in parses was dictated by latency and how people played the fight, not the rotation. The spec couldn't be anymore brain dead single target if it tried.

Voidform IS the problem, no matter what you do to make voidform work you will cause it to not work in other areas, legion it could only work in raids and not anywhere else, now it works for dungeons because of stupid band aid fixes and doesnt work as a concept at all anymore. This is what people who actually play the spec day in day out know and see, voidform cannot function as a mechanic for a class that has a single dps spec, its a square peg in a round hole.



https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch.../fascinate/pve

This is the armory you yourself posted.

I would argue about that skill based but that's not the point of what I'm trying to say.

Look, blizzard went this way of giving classes new identity, and they are not going back (like they almost never do, if they do it takes them 3 years). Just take roll the bones from Outlaw rogue, it received far more hate than any ability ever created and they kept polishing it, giving it tweaks and eventually it's playable if you actually give it a try.
My issue with removing void theme and void form is that it's unnecessary, I would rather see a rework than removal, even if it means drastic rework (which demands in this state).

What I consider being best solution to it while keeping void form would be making void form function as Demon form functioned for demonology warlocks pre-legion. By that you get rid of that stupid ramp up, you keep cool design and have a cd to use which won't punish you if you can't cast after using it.

[Deleted]

I would argue about that skill based but that's not the point of what I'm trying to say.

Look, blizzard went this way of giving classes new identity, and they are not going back (like they almost never do, if they do it takes them 3 years). Just take roll the bones from Outlaw rogue, it received far more hate than any ability ever created and they kept polishing it, giving it tweaks and eventually it's playable if you actually give it a try.
My issue with removing void theme and void form is that it's unnecessary, I would rather see a rework than removal, even if it means drastic rework (which demands in this state).

What I consider being best solution to it while keeping void form would be making void form function as Demon form functioned for demonology warlocks pre-legion. By that you get rid of that stupid ramp up, you keep cool design and have a cd to use which won't punish you if you can't cast after using it.

Ok let's take Roll the Bones as an example,
I am playing an Outlaw Rogue and have Roll the Bones, i detest this ability:

1. I Pick Slice and Dice talent
2. I change spec to Assassination
3. I change spec to Subtlety

I hate Voidform:

1. Quit the game
2. Reroll

See how the Voidform situation is nothing like that example? This is the part you people who play Shadow as an alt don't seem to get, we are stuck with this mechanic for EVERYTHING, we don't get to swap specs, we don't get to switch talents, we have to suck it up for this stupid mechanic that has no place on a ranged caster class in this game for every bit of content.

It's a bit contradicting that you say we can't go "back" (i am assuming this is in response to people who want shadow orbs back) yet you then suggest that they go "back" and just make Voidform an exact copy of the old demo Meta.

[Xenodrake]

Ok let's take Roll the Bones as an example,
I am playing an Outlaw Rogue and have Roll the Bones, i detest this ability:

1. I Pick Slice and Dice talent
2. I change spec to Assassination
3. I change spec Subtetly

I hate Voidform:

1. Quit the game
2. Reroll

See how the Voidform situation is nothing like that example? This is the part you people who play Shadow as an alt don't seem to get, we are stuck with this mechanic for EVERYTHING, we don't get to swap specs, we don't get to switch talents, we have to suck it up for this stupid mechanic that has no place on a ranged caster class in this game for every bit of content.

Yes Voidform is the worst. Most of the time I don't even go into voidform unless it is a boss fight.

[Deleted]

Yes Voidform is the worst. Most of the time I don't even go into voidform unless it is a boss fight.

You should still be doing it, with things like DV and SC you can get back into voidform in about 3-5 globals depending on what's off cd, take advantage of the large damage band aid fix they gave VoiEr to make it work in dungeons. It's probably the only positive thing about Voidform, the big damage explosion at the start.

[zito]

This is what what I want them to do:

- Voidform removed
- Voidbolt removed
- Insanity removed
- Mind Blast now instant cast, has two charges
- Shadow Word: Void replaces Mind Blast, reducing the cooldown per charge by 1 second and increasing the damage by X% (tuning TBD)
- Shadowy Insight grants a third charge to Mind Blast, when it procs it now adds +1 charge, instead of resetting the cooldown on the current charge
- Dark Void changed to, "When you cast Mind Sear, apply Shadow Word: Pain to all enemies hit, 20 second cooldown" (one less button, same idea)
- Mind Bomb replaced with Psychic Mastery, reduces the cooldown of Psychic Scream by 40 seconds
- Shadow Word: Death returned to baseline with only 1 charge, damage buffed by 50%
- Shadow Word: Death talent replaced with Lord of Whispers, "Shadow Word: Death now works on targets below 35% health (up from 20%), and the cooldown resets when a target dies"
- Lingering Insanity replaced with Fathomless Will, "Your damage over time ticks grant you 1% haste for 15 seconds, stacking up to 15% total haste"
- Void Torrent, cooldown increased to 60 seconds from 45, damage increased to not suck (let's say 800% over 4 seconds, from 300%)
- Mastery changed to "increases your Vampiric Touch and Shadow Word: Pain damage by X%" (so we can itemize mastery for DoT fights and Crit/Haste for single targets)
- Buff Shadowform damage to 20% from 10% (Voidform replacement)

L100 talents:

Legacy of the Void replaced with Void Eruption, "Instantly deal 190% of spellpower to all enemies within 10 yards of your target, 30 second cooldown"

Dark Ascension replaced with Devouring Despair, "A powerful DoT that deals X% damage per second for 8 seconds, and heals the Shadowpriest for damage done, 20 second cooldown"

Surrender To Madness replaced with Dark Archangel, "Gain wings (the most important part), and deal 30% increased Shadow damage for 30 seconds, 3 minute cooldown"

None of that will happen probably, but that's my dream

Missed opportunity to call devouring despair devouring plague lol

[Deleted]

Missed opportunity to call devouring despair devouring plague lol

100% positive it originally was but has been changed, either that or i subconsciously read it as plague, probably to appease those who say "my vampiric life leeching priest who tortures people's minds does not fit on the alliance" because 1 spell had the word plague in its name.

[RsinRC]

Buffs across the spec will not solve it's issues.
Right now we're good at AoE because of the bursts 3 abilities provide and ONLY if you have 2 talented. The biggest culprit is Void Eruption. When watching your meters and basic game play you will notice that after those abilities are used we start to go down in damage. A spec with sustained AoE will surpass us because that spec will most likely have a DPS cooldown to add to their sustained or talents to improve their base AoE abilities. We have to go into void form and then back out which takes 30s+. Buffing our dots will not help in AOE (sure it will in ST) because we are currently having a tough time re-applying dots to begin with because of their duration and trying to keep Mind Blast on CD. Just because you go into a dungeon and go into your first VF then SC then DA doesn't make the spec "Fine" or "working" 'cuz your numbers appear high. You will notice you start struggling to keep up at higher itm lvls with vs other specs and the frustrations will start kicking in and simply buffing out toolkit isn't going to help because of how everything is tied together, especially with how our DoTs are intertwined with all our other abilites but can't reliably keep them up.

When it comes to shadow orbs, they did work and was amazing, I agree, but ultimately we are moving away from that and we are now moving into/part of completely new lore for shadow priests and we can see it all around in game. We are not going back to orbs simple as that. We do have our mechanics brought from legion and I say we should enhance, modify, improve or mechanically change our current abilities.

When it comes to Lore, I do like that we can enter VF but I don't like that we have to give in to madness/insanity every 20-30 seconds. If Shadow priests give in to the void I believe it should be to gain ultimate power. Void Form, imo, should be a DPS cooldown that can be used at 90-100 insanity. Under this idea once in VF it will play exactly how it did in Legion where you want to fight your hardest to stay in VF to continue having access to these crazy powers.

When it comes to mechanics. We like Void Eruption and we will be staying with our Insanity resource and we should go back to orbs-like with a build/spend playstyle while in shadow form. We can still have it the way it is plus a bit of how it used to be and make the class fun and require skill.
As I said in an earlier post, Void Eruption should be it's own ability and cost Insanity. So whenever your insanity meets a certain threshold you are able to cast it. Most likely will cost a lot of resource. Void Bolt will also cost insanity but will work for ST and both VEruption and VB will extend our dots.
This will keep our current gameplay through our VF CD and we become spenders like orbs while in shadow form - we will have access to both AoE and ST baseline and no new buttons just need a bit more thinking and only by choosing whether to VErupt or VB. This will also open up our talents to hopefully more options to enhance our playstyle.

[zito]

100% positive it originally was but has been changed, either that or i subconsciously read it as plague, probably to appease those who say "my vampiric life leeching priest who tortures people's minds does not fit on the alliance" because 1 spell had the word plague in its name.

if anything the word void is the odd man out in this situation. Shadow was never about the void to begin with and they just ret con it in legion to give shadow an "identity" but the identity didn't make sense either, like why would a priest look toward the void? Shadow made sense because it's the darker side of life.

[Makabreska]

if anything the word void is the odd man out in this situation. Shadow was never about the void to begin with and they just ret con it in legion to give shadow an "identity" but the identity didn't make sense either, like why would a priest look toward the void? Shadow made sense because it's the darker side of life.

I do prefer void much more than generic shadow that was used extensively by locks and to certain extent DK's and rogues.

[zito]

I do prefer void much more than generic shadow that was used extensively by locks and to certain extent DK's and rogues.

but all shadow magic is void magic now but locks and dk's don't channel anything from the void

the whole ret con was poorly done for the sake of having an identity. You can also blame identity for having SWD as a talent now because "warriors identity is executes"

[Shaiandra]

I think with some number tweaks (which may also be solved as I get more Haste), I can probably enjoy the spec at least as much as I did in Legion. I like Dark Ascension, the new Eruption, and Shadow Crash being viable, though I think I'll always miss the Twins' Painful Touch, but Dark Void at least makes up for some of that.

I'm mostly okay with Voidform, yet I am concerned with it being baseline. I personally view it as being similar to DKs' Breath of Sindragosa, being a powerful ability if you can sustain it when you can get the most uptime. Some like it, some hate it. I did like BoS a lot during late WoD, which is a major reason why Legion Shadow looked appealing to me.

Except now imagine if DKs got Breath of Sindragosa made baseline but its CD was removed, and they lost Pillar of Frost. You can't talent out of it, you're just expected to use it as often as possible rather than waiting for ideal conditions, and you have frequent pseudo-burst that you're balanced around instead of real burst cooldowns... and that's basically where Shadow with its forced Voidform is. The current implementation is very inflexible and it doesn't surprise me that some hate it.

[Makabreska]

but all shadow magic is void magic now but locks and dk's don't channel anything from the void

the whole ret con was poorly done for the sake of having an identity. You can also blame identity for having SWD as a talent now because "warriors identity is executes"

Retcon or not, I like current shadow identity. Same with combat -> outlaw or survival transition, gave those specs better lore backbone. And regarding SW (ye great goddamn emote here :v), I don't give a crap about that spell and couldn't understand the outrage about moving it to talents. Never really liked it, didn't care that it was "iconic" and whatnot. For me it was always the poor mans Execute. I prefer playing w/o it.

[Deleted]

if anything the word void is the odd man out in this situation. Shadow was never about the void to begin with and they just ret con it in legion to give shadow an "identity" but the identity didn't make sense either, like why would a priest look toward the void? Shadow made sense because it's the darker side of life.

I agree, i really do not understand why they pushed void stuff so much, why can't shadow just be shadow, why does it HAVE to now be known as void? Chronicles state they are the same thing so why can't we just be shadow priests that use shadow magic? we all knew/speculated the old gods links for YEARS before they forced the void thing down our throats and everyone was fine with us using shadow magic and the old gods using shadow magic. Old gods serve the void lords, that's fine and all but let me just be that guy who uses shadow magic not void magic.

It doesn't bother me overly much but i would much rather we were just about shadow rather than tentacles and shit, It just doesn't really fit, especially when you think about Death Knights and warlocks who also use shadow magic, it just feels off.

Light Vs Shadow, Holy vs Void
or
Light Vs Void

Just feels too forced for the sake of emphasising blizzards new passion for the void.

I'm mostly okay with Voidform, yet I am concerned with it being baseline. I personally view it as being similar to DKs' Breath of Sindragosa, being a powerful ability if you can sustain it when you can get the most uptime. Some like it, some hate it. I did like BoS a lot during late WoD, which is a major reason why Legion Shadow looked appealing to me.

Except now imagine if DKs got Breath of Sindragosa made baseline but its CD was removed, and they lost Pillar of Frost. You can't talent out of it, you're just expected to use it as often as possible rather than waiting for ideal conditions, and you have frequent pseudo-burst that you're balanced around instead of real burst cooldowns... and that's basically where Shadow with its forced Voidform is. The current implementation is very inflexible and it doesn't surprise me that some hate it.

This is exactly the problem, we were all excited at first when we saw it since we were actually getting some radical changes to our spec which was let's face it, the first time in our history to get such massive changes to everything, until legion the biggest things we ever got was the mana battery niche and the change to shadow orbs.
The flaws were blatant in legion alpha but we were still in the honeymoon period and excited about being a whole new class.

The honeymoon is over and the majority of shadow mains want their class back. We can't opt out of voidform, it's a concept that will never work for a single dps specs main mechanic especially a caster class and should be something that is relegated to a talent option, be it in a way like my talent revamp suggestion in my sig, given to a 3 spec dps class, given to demon hunters for their meta (the way it should have been in the first place) or as a reworked demonic talent, or even just as a 3rd spec for demon hunter. It HAS to go for shadow though.

@RsinRC I agree mostly but i do not think voidform has a place for shadow priests ever and would jump at the chance to get orbs back and being content with having a proper aoe ability/mechanic that can replace all the band aid fixes they've had to add to force voidform into working for dungeons.

[Nyel]

Mark your calenders, the end of the first September week will be the moment when you'll get disappointed.

The target for the first significant balance tuning is aimed for the end of the first week in September.

- - - Updated - - -

You should still be doing it, with things like DV and SC you can get back into voidform in about 3-5 globals depending on what's off cd, take advantage of the large damage band aid fix they gave VoiEr to make it work in dungeons. It's probably the only positive thing about Voidform, the big damage explosion at the start.

But it feels so unsatisfying to cast Void Eruption... I mean seriously, I'm doing the same as @Xenodrake , I just pop Voidform when I'm facing a bunch of mobs. It's such a bad mechanic and having to cast Void Eruption makes everything worse.

[Deleted]

Mark your calenders, the end of the first September week will be the moment when you'll get disappointed.

The target for the first significant balance tuning is aimed for the end of the first week in September.

- - - Updated - - -



But it feels so unsatisfying to cast Void Eruption... I mean seriously, I'm doing the same as @Xenodrake , I just pop Voidform when I'm facing a bunch of mobs. It's such a bad mechanic and having to cast Void Eruption makes everything worse.

I know it does, but basically if you're gonna play the spec knowing how terrible it is to play you might as well play it correctly without hurting yourself and your group. While it will hardly make a difference, i think to many players shadow still has the stigma of being a terrible class to take to dungeons, so if people end up playing the class poorly that's not really helping the situation and can hurt casual players who try queuing in lfg only to be insta declined because the last spriest the leader took to a dungeon did barely any damage since they practically afk'd their way to the boss, again it won't change much in the grand scheme but every little helps.

More VoiEr cast = More damge done = Faster dungeon = More time to alt tab and/or refresh mmo champ for that elusive blue post telling us what they are going to do to shadow.

[zito]

The target for the first significant balance tuning is aimed for the end of the first week in September.

we were already told that we won't get anything til 8.1

[Ophenia]

Look, blizzard went this way of giving classes new identity, and they are not going back (like they almost never do, if they do it takes them 3 years).

Survival was the DoT distance spec, then it was the melee in total symbiosis with his pet, now it's a melee BM.

All this in 3 years.

[Nyel]

I know it does, but basically if you're gonna play the spec knowing how terrible it is to play you might as well play it correctly without hurting yourself and your group. While it will hardly make a difference, i think to many players shadow still has the stigma of being a terrible class to take to dungeons, so if people end up playing the class poorly that's not really helping the situation and can hurt casual players who try queuing in lfg only to be insta declined because the last spriest the leader took to a dungeon did barely any damage since they practically afk'd their way to the boss, again it won't change much in the grand scheme but every little helps.

More VoiEr cast = More damge done = Faster dungeon = More time to alt tab and/or refresh mmo champ for that elusive blue post telling us what they are going to do to shadow.

I wasn't talking about group content though, just open world stuff. If your core class mechanic feels more of a hindrance there's something substantially wrong with your spec.

- - - Updated - - -

Shadow priest is super strong in burst, aoe, single target and multi. The only class that beat me are outlaw rogues that it i bear every spec in every dungeons if you want to know how to be good go to twitch.tv/viexian1 and i will show you how to be good. Its not hard at all

Seriously? So Shadow is basically top of all specs?