Balance DPS feels awful...why?

[nlc]

Icy Veins and WoWhead are both good guides, don't let these people lie to you. But I will say most people get there information from the Discord servers now days.

Agree. Can't speak for other specs but the balance druid guide on Icy Veins is very good and pretty comprehensive.

and people need to l2p

After you get the basics down probably learning to move should be your biggest priority. (I guess that's what they mean by learn to play.) Getting movement wrong has a very high impact on your output. The Icy Veins guide has a section on how to do this in theory but applying it to a boss fight takes a fair bit of practise. Although with haste levels being so low at the moment (and therefore long GCDs) there will never be an easier time to learn

[Shifterstorm]

People keep mentioning how wowhead and icy veins are not good guides, and people need to l2p. As a novice balance druid, where do i go for proper information?

What I had been stating earlier and comparing that to Icyveins and wowhead being bad guides is definitely not what I was going for. These are both great guides to get you started, but your dps will be more heavily effected if you are not playing the game correctly to begin with. You have to learn how to dodge the fire, stutter step, pre-position better, and know the fight mechanics before you can top the charts. Knowing the rotation and best talents is one thing. Doing your rotation while also knowing the fight and squeezing the most out of your dps for the fight is another.

[shaunika123]

I get that, but a lot of "complaints" about dps being an issue is normally from people who are not skilled enough to push themselves to the limit of the spec. Sure you can look at sims from robots playing 100% perfectly but no one is going to even come close to those numbers. A skilled player playing the lowest simed spec against a bad skilled highest simed spec player will overtake them 100%. People are too easy to rush "This spec is bad" before getting past the denial of "I am a low skilled player". I get people want a balanced class system but it will never work. Not because "math is hard" but because "being a skilled player is hard and requires work and effort to reach the levels of play you can actually achieve". So posts like these trigger me without explanation backed up regardless if its proven with logs or not.

I have a feeling this is a lost cause so will just prob move on. Good luck to the OP.

I'M not sure that "good players on this spec beat bad players on another therefore the spec is good" is good logic.

[Demonpuke]

Agree. Can't speak for other specs but the balance druid guide on Icy Veins is very good and pretty comprehensive.



After you get the basics down probably learning to move should be your biggest priority. (I guess that's what they mean by learn to play.) Getting movement wrong has a very high impact on your output. The Icy Veins guide has a section on how to do this in theory but applying it to a boss fight takes a fair bit of practise. Although with haste levels being so low at the moment (and therefore long GCDs) there will never be an easier time to learn

balance is just like any other class that uses resources: save your resources for when you need them. either you need them so you can instant cast and not lose dps during movement phases or you need them for priority target burst. if you spend all your astral on starsurges three seconds before a boss mechanic makes you run around then you just lost a massive amount of damage and most likely one of your empowerments is also going to over cap. if you spend all your astral on starsurges right before the boss drops adds on you then you just lost so much damage that i cant even put a number on it.

that is most likely what people mean when they say learn to play. those are basic dungeon/raid skills and if you dont apply them in practice you are going to see the results on your meters. basic skills like that translate to every single class/spec in the game in some way.

[branbib]

I would have to say it is you not doing the rotation right. I was 310 Ilvl yesterday before I started running Mythic Dungeons (337 now). I would recommend looking at Icy Veins or some guide on Boomkin. But the talent setup I use is 2321122. So far in BFA I notice that most classes have a hard time beating me in Single Target and no one can top me in AoE. I ran Mythics with a mythic raiding Frost mage who was about 7Ilvl higher than me and I was doing 5k+ more on AoE and we did the same single target dps. Boomkin seems to be in a very good spot.

Your subjective experience is the wrong way to measure if we're in a good spot or not, because moonkin is very trait dependant in current mythics (short boss fights, large aoe pulls). Without streaking stars - your ST dps will suffer tremendously (20-25% easily). Same with the frostmage in your example. Mb he doesn't have his ST traits. 7ilvls higher is not a whole lot of information either.

On the other hand - simcraft has proven that we're dead last on ST when everyone has their desired traits. That's a fact.

[Deleted]

It's not the dps i find boring, is the rotation.

[Demonpuke]

Your subjective experience is the wrong way to measure if we're in a good spot or not, because moonkin is very trait dependant in current mythics (short boss fights, large aoe pulls). Without streaking stars - your ST dps will suffer tremendously (20-25% easily). Same with the frostmage in your example. Mb he doesn't have his ST traits. 7ilvls higher is not a whole lot of information either.

On the other hand - simcraft has proven that we're dead last on ST when everyone has their desired traits. That's a fact.

you need to look more closely at the rank list that simcraft has on their homepage, which i know is where you are getting this ignorant "look at the sims" argument.

they are using the wrong azurite traits, which in turn means they are using the wrong apl, which in turn means any other azurite trait you try to sim will still use that same apl.

hell, the opening rotation isnt even set up correctly. i bet if i spend another five minutes ill find another five things wrong with balance sims alone.

simulation craft is not accurate when an expansion launches until the first raid comes out. there simply isnt any data to extrapolate from. add in the very confusing and rotation changing azurite traits that are in game now and simcraft is all but useless at this point. wait two weeks and watch all of that change.

so tired of this "look at the sims" argument.

[Chemii]

I have three streaking stars pieces and leave most people in the dust in the opener other than possibly frost mage, fights aren't really long enough to gauge how it would go otherwise but I think you need to re-think some stuff, sims are not accurate.

[Rhaxus]

I have three streaking stars pieces and leave most people in the dust in the opener other than possibly frost mage, fights aren't really long enough to gauge how it would go otherwise but I think you need to re-think some stuff, sims are not accurate.

i really hate the idea of building all my damage around these 3 minute windows, so streaking stars can go to hell imho

[Kluian05]

I have three streaking stars pieces and leave most people in the dust in the opener other than possibly frost mage, fights aren't really long enough to gauge how it would go otherwise but I think you need to re-think some stuff, sims are not accurate.

Streaking stars is amazing on short burst fights like 5 man where the encounter only lasts 60 seconds. But extend that out to 3 minutes and see how moonkins fare against other classes. Right now I only have 1 piece with it, I can only imagine how absurd it looks like with 3.

[Chemii]

Streaking stars is amazing on short burst fights like 5 man where the encounter only lasts 60 seconds. But extend that out to 3 minutes and see how moonkins fare against other classes. Right now I only have 1 piece with it, I can only imagine how absurd it looks like with 3.

I would say that in the mythic dungeons I've done typically a warrior can catch up in the very short execute phase on a single target. It's just too early for me to say my dps is good or bad, I feel like I'm doing fine - certainly not bad by any means. The only time I feel really weak is with a mage or warrior destroying burst aoe.

[azka]

I'm happy with my boomy so far. I'm 339 and run along a 342 fury warrior, a 336 frost mage and a 342 monk tank in my group. I don't feel I'm behind any of them at all. Probably they are not so happy with my hability to pull extra trash but that's life (I tell them). On execute phase the warrior catches up and gets ahead but other than that I feel good.

I don't pug that much, but the only M pug I went in, the lock was complaining very hard how boomys were broken because I was ahead of him for a good chunk (I was like... seriously?).

Anyway, it's too early to say. But it doesn't look weak to me.

[MCitra]

I'm happy with my boomy so far. I'm 339 and run along a 342 fury warrior, a 336 frost mage and a 342 monk tank in my group. I don't feel I'm behind any of them at all. Probably they are not so happy with my hability to pull extra trash but that's life (I tell them). On execute phase the warrior catches up and gets ahead but other than that I feel good.

I don't pug that much, but the only M pug I went in, the lock was complaining very hard how boomys were broken because I was ahead of him for a good chunk (I was like... seriously?).

Anyway, it's too early to say. But it doesn't look weak to me.

If they are behind you, they are doing something wrong.

[Deicoy]

I'd love to see the logs from the few people in here saying they have no problem beating everyone, especially the guy who said no one can top him in AOE, a frost mage with frozen orb up which it almost always is shouldn't have any issues beating you.

After playing my DH i can tell you Boomkin AOE isn't even in the same ballpark.

[eXtOphius]

After a couple of weeks of running all Mythic Dungeons, I feel safe to say that Balance is going to need some tuning after next week's raids. I am currently 342 iLvl and have ran with mostly the same group for the last two weeks, clearing them easily. I only have one PotM piece, and one High Noon trait, so I can't comment on those playstyles. I do have two SS traits, so I've been focused more on ST/boss damage. A couple of things I've noticed:

Trash:
I started doing dungeons with ~10% Haste, and am around 14% currently. At these low levels, it just feels awful to play the spec right now. I've been running with a Leather group mostly, and their up front damage on trash is insanely ridiculous right now (including our well geared DH tanking). If the pull isn't a fuckton of mobs, I can't do much damage without the proper AoE Azerite Traits & Talents. If it is a fresh mob pack (no AsP going into the pull), most packs are almost dead by the time I've had time to throw up MF/SF/hard cast Lunar Strike to be able to Starfall. If I can go into a pack with some AsP banked, I can usually do some decent damage, but generally trash just feels bad as Boomkin right now.

Bosses:
ST damage is solid using (FoN/SotF/TM/FoE). I have used Incarnation and it's nice, but 50 AsP for Starfall feels terrible. My damage looks pretty solid right now, because these bosses are so shortly lived. Having two SS Azerite Traits ties my damage to CA so much, any mechanic during this feels horrible and completely ruins your DPS. But if you can avoid that, you can pump out some pretty heavy damage.

It honestly feels as if Balance DPS is too heavily tied to certain Traits right now. I really wish I had some PotM/HN traits to try out their playstyle, to see if the AoE is so lackluster as it is having to run SS. Obviously it will be nice to see what happens once raids open, but I expect Balance's ST damage to look pretty paltry once fights have extended for long periods outside of our opener. I'll reserve more judgement on AoE for pushing M+ keys, as with Affliction, I'd expect us to be much stronger once the trash packs stay alive through melee's first three globals.

This is my first tier playing Balance, so take anything with a grain of salt. I'm definitely not playing 100% optimally, learning the class and dungeon mechanics at the same time.

[Deleted]

After a couple of weeks of running all Mythic Dungeons, I feel safe to say that Balance is going to need some tuning after next week's raids. I am currently 342 iLvl and have ran with mostly the same group for the last two weeks, clearing them easily. I only have one PotM piece, and one High Noon trait, so I can't comment on those playstyles. I do have two SS traits, so I've been focused more on ST/boss damage. A couple of things I've noticed:

Trash:
I started doing dungeons with ~10% Haste, and am around 14% currently. At these low levels, it just feels awful to play the spec right now. I've been running with a Leather group mostly, and their up front damage on trash is insanely ridiculous right now (including our well geared DH tanking). If the pull isn't a fuckton of mobs, I can't do much damage without the proper AoE Azerite Traits & Talents. If it is a fresh mob pack (no AsP going into the pull), most packs are almost dead by the time I've had time to throw up MF/SF/hard cast Lunar Strike to be able to Starfall. If I can go into a pack with some AsP banked, I can usually do some decent damage, but generally trash just feels bad as Boomkin right now.

Bosses:
ST damage is solid using (FoN/SotF/TM/FoE). I have used Incarnation and it's nice, but 50 AsP for Starfall feels terrible. My damage looks pretty solid right now, because these bosses are so shortly lived. Having two SS Azerite Traits ties my damage to CA so much, any mechanic during this feels horrible and completely ruins your DPS. But if you can avoid that, you can pump out some pretty heavy damage.

It honestly feels as if Balance DPS is too heavily tied to certain Traits right now. I really wish I had some PotM/HN traits to try out their playstyle, to see if the AoE is so lackluster as it is having to run SS. Obviously it will be nice to see what happens once raids open, but I expect Balance's ST damage to look pretty paltry once fights have extended for long periods outside of our opener. I'll reserve more judgement on AoE for pushing M+ keys, as with Affliction, I'd expect us to be much stronger once the trash packs stay alive through melee's first three globals.

This is my first tier playing Balance, so take anything with a grain of salt. I'm definitely not playing 100% optimally, learning the class and dungeon mechanics at the same time.

Yup, sums up a lot of whats going on right now with balance as a spec.

We look good (even amazing) on ST dungeon boss fights if we have SS traits and go incarnation because we frontload so much of our damage and dungeon bosses dont live long enough for it to even out. Our AoE is so lackluster when things arnt staying alive for dot duration. In higher m+ im pretty sure we can do very well overall with the right traits (3x PotM). Because with this trait movement doesnt impact us much at all, while right now we get gutted by movement. Im simming close to 11K on single target with my current gear setup which is 100 % single target focused which isnt horrible but its not great either.

[Aggrophobic]

If they are behind you, they are doing something wrong.

Sorry to say it but your friends probably can't play their classes very well.

[joltcola1234]

It's not the dps i find boring, is the rotation.

Agree with this 100%. The rotation isn't greatly changed from Legion, but I'm finding it mind numbing boring right now. It's borderline unplayable for me, and I've been maining a Balance Druid since Lich King. The loss of artifact weapon cast (moon moon) and the game play alterations offered from legendaries has really had more impact then I thought they would. I honestly don't know at this point if I'll stick with Balance through BfA, and that's something I never thought I'd be saying.

I also agree with some points made about our damage being to heavily tied to azerite traits. The azerite traits themselves are also boring and terrible.

[Deleted]

Agree with this 100%. The rotation isn't greatly changed from Legion, but I'm finding it mind numbing boring right now. It's borderline unplayable for me, and I've been maining a Balance Druid since Lich King. The loss of artifact weapon cast (moon moon) and the game play alterations offered from legendaries has really had more impact then I thought they would. I honestly don't know at this point if I'll stick with Balance through BfA, and that's something I never thought I'd be saying.

I also agree with some points made about our damage being to heavily tied to azerite traits. The azerite traits themselves are also boring and terrible.

I agree with most of the things but I find SS atleast somewhat fun since it changes how we play a lil bit atleast and bursting is allways fun!

[Bhorin]

Let's be real, Balance is bad at current gear levels. Look at the sims. Let's not pretend anyone doing poorly is a bad player.

http://simulationcraft.org/reports/PR_Raid.html (hint: for those that can't read a graph, Balance is dead last in ilvl 340 sims)

Maybe you do well compared to your friends because your friends are actually bad and you are better.