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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "I havnt played it, but i know it is shit because I say so"
    people like you are the only reason I hope classic is not actually going to be classic and it is going to fail.
    I do visit several gaming sites and forums almost daily so i'm very well aware of not only current WoW but other MMOs as well. I no longer have to play a new MMO game, i can see what works and what doesn't by just reading about them.

    That being said, there hasn't happened any significant changes in WoW gameplay since Cataclysm. There is linear and boring questing, and aoe fest dungeons to bring you to max level where you can start raiding in various difficulty levels. Everything else are just mini games you can dabble with when you're not raiding.

    And it's always good to hear i'm someone's only reason for something.

  2. #302
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deniter View Post
    I do visit several gaming sites and forums almost daily so i'm very well aware of not only current WoW but other MMOs as well. I no longer have to play a new MMO game, i can see what works and what doesn't by just reading about them.

    That being said, there hasn't happened any significant changes in WoW gameplay since Cataclysm. There is linear and boring questing, and aoe fest dungeons to bring you to max level where you can start raiding in various difficulty levels. Everything else are just mini games you can dabble with when you're not raiding.

    And it's always good to hear i'm someone's only reason for something.
    "there hasn't happened any significant changes in WoW gameplay since Cataclysm."
    how to literally confirm you have not played wow at all since cataclysm.
    and no its not just you its the classic community who love classic so much they decide to do nothing but shit on current wow 24/7 to justify to themselves that it will be worth playing and paying for something 14 years old you have already played many times before and will play for many years to come.
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  3. #303
    whoever says "vanilla rotation was only 1-2 buttons"

    never played vanilla and like the current WoW development teams fails to understand a massive important issue.

    Raiding is NOT 100% of WoWs content. Vanilla actually had spells outside of just cooldowns and instant cast spells.

    Do hunters still scatter shot/ ice trap mobs like they did in Zul Gurub? Rarely if ever.

    Concuss shot/wing clip to kite mobs etc? Not everything has to be "OMG DAMAGE" sometimes stunning the mob about to kill a healer is more important, like back in vanilla.

    The game was much more well rounded and enjoyable. Not only was there more enjoyable content outside of raids where your class spells were helpful but the other content was challenging because your class wasnt a 5 button class so they can tune mythic raid encounters into a ping pong fight where you dart around from soak to soak and made the class bare bones so players can still achieve/complete the higher complexity in one raid difficulty instead of balancing out class complexity so all content is more interesting.
    Last edited by RobertoCarlos; 2018-08-23 at 07:18 PM.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by mich4el View Post
    "Vanilla rotation was only 1-2 buttons" – and!?


    You think memorizing a 5-7 button rotations is hard? Not It's not and most people do it while leveling…
    there is nothing hard or impressive about memorizing a 5-7 button rotation.
    This is dumbest thing I've ever heard; It literally takes 5 hours to master it.

    While in Vanilla and TBC! You had to think ahead and manage your resources –that is what actually takes skill– and doing that would take months
    you would have the illusion that you've mastered your class, but you didn't.


    Key things that you are missing when you think about vanilla
    – Resource management
    – Timing
    – Thinking ahead
    Which are not vital to game right now at all or not present altogether…

    Vanilla & TBC gameplay was more strategy and RPG like, while modern wow is flat out action game.
    you got to be joking at this point but your signature suggests otherwise...

    what kind of 'resource management' does it take to spam frostbolt or shadow bolt?...

    unless you mean the soul shards you had to farm 2hrs before the raid started... that is technically resource management, it's highly recommended to have a young sibling (preferably 10-14) that will happily farm them for you if you let him sit on the 'big pc'...

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "there hasn't happened any significant changes in WoW gameplay since Cataclysm."
    how to literally confirm you have not played wow at all since cataclysm.
    and no its not just you its the classic community who love classic so much they decide to do nothing but shit on current wow 24/7 to justify to themselves that it will be worth playing and paying for something 14 years old you have already played many times before and will play for many years to come.
    I don't shit on anything, but people have different tastes when it comes to playing games. I don't play SWtOR, GW2 or ESO either, mostly for the same reasons i don't play modern WoW. I really, really wish there was a better and more fresh game i could move to from vanilla WoW but there isn't, so my only option atm is to keep playing vanilla and eventually classic when it launches.

    Pantheon looks promising so far but it's still in distant future.

  6. #306
    Gameplay was at its very simplest in Classic and TBC. Even with the classpruning and slowed down gameplay of BFA, it's still extremely complex compared to that of those expansions. I'm sure you could play 3 different Mages at the same time, alt tabbing between different accounts in a Classic raid.

    Classes first became properly designed with complex rotations in WotLK, and Cata/MoP was the height of classdesign, both in terms of "fun", size of toolkit and rotational complexity. WoD and Legion was a small step back with slight pruning and removal of interesting mechanics like snapshotting. Now BFA takes another step back, with even more pruning and putting lots of CDs (both offensive and defensive) and utilty spells back on the GCD. Spells that haven't been on the GCD since TBC. There was a GOOD reason for removing them from the GCD in the first place...

    But even with that, BFA gameplay is still extremely complicated compared to Classic and TBC gameplay.

    It's okay for you to prefer those expansions (TBC is still my fav), but the above statements are absolute facts, and if you disagree with them, your memory is shit and/or you outright and utterly wrong.
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  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    Although I agree with you in principle, there’s a massive gap between getting the basics down and getting anywhere approaching simmed performance out of a class while dodging boss mechanics and watching debuffs and raid timers. There’s a group of players who basically got left behind somewhere along the way, and the people still playing the game essentially took the attitude of “good riddance.” Over the course of 5 expansions, I watched some of my closest friends essentially hit the limit of their mental bandwidth. Everyone has their own personal wall where they simply can’t play any better. The issue is that most raid bosses are tuned in such a ways that everyone in the raid is theoretically getting 80% (or whatever) performance out of their character. When you have a raid of people only getting 60% for whatever reason, the guild essentially reaches a breaking point where poor performers are either let go or the raid part of the game is essentially killed. The ever escalating levels of difficulty in the retail version essentially makes sure that most everyone playing is going to get the chance to see their own personal wall. These people will become disappointed and disinterested for a myriad of reasons. Perhaps they just get angry because they realize they can’t get past a certain personal best. Or perhaps they feel bad for letting their raid team down. Whatever the reason eventually these people move on because the game becomes a very unpleasant experience to them. Based on my experiences with my friends, the downhill slide started in wrath, but really started to take effect in cata. By MoP, most all of my “casual” friends had completely left the game, and never came back, even though they spoke fondly of it. The game had simply reached a point where these people could no longer participate in the social experiences the game had to offer. Even the few who came back, they only participated in story content, and never joined back into content that the rest of the guild was doing.
    This is the reason multiple difficulties exist. Anyone who was capable of raiding in earlier expansions will be able handle normal mode raids just fine.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by BillyWayneRuddick View Post
    whoever says "vanilla rotation was only 1-2 buttons"

    never played vanilla and like the current WoW development teams fails to understand a massive important issue.

    Raiding is NOT 100% of WoWs content. Vanilla actually had spells outside of just cooldowns and instant cast spells.

    Do hunters still scatter shot/ ice trap mobs like they did in Zul Gurub? Rarely if ever.

    Concuss shot/wing clip to kite mobs etc? Not everything has to be "OMG DAMAGE" sometimes stunning the mob about to kill a healer is more important, like back in vanilla.

    The game was much more well rounded and enjoyable. Not only was there more enjoyable content outside of raids where your class spells were helpful but the other content was challenging because your class wasnt a 5 button class so they can tune mythic raid encounters into a ping pong fight where you dart around from soak to soak and made the class bare bones so players can still achieve/complete the higher complexity in one raid difficulty instead of balancing out class complexity so all content is more interesting.
    There was not high complexity in vanilla. None, maintaining a CC is not difficult. I can tell you played a hunter which did take some skill you, if you count downloading a swing timer addon and weaving shots between auto's......But as for kiting, Frost trapping, etc it was easy, I could do it as a lock as well, it was almost a joke. As for stunning a mob before it hit your healer that rarely came up at all. You got an addon that monitored debuffs(they existed in vanilla, i had one for lock to manage curses), and when it got low you would reaply the CC or hunters had it even easier because they coul place the frost trap in the path of the mob early and forget about it......... People keep talking about more content then current wow outside of raids but there was nothing but dungeons, raids, AH and PVP in vanilla what other things were there......the limited number of quests that had no true story.......farming chops for kicken chops......World Bosses were just raids that took place at random times...and if you try to say there was any complexity to Vanilla raiding I call BS, the most complex thing in Vanilla raiding was finding 40 people that had enough of a brain to move out of the one mechanic per fight, there was no raid difficulty beyond the idiot checks, resist checks and DPS checks.......The game now is significantly more well rounded, you have balanced classes, quality dungeons, world quests, war mode, expeditions, engaging raid mechanics, BG's, Arena's, more then one tanking class, Hybrids can DPS and be respectable......do I need to continue.........As for CC it will be back for the M+ 10 affix.....

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    This is the reason multiple difficulties exist. Anyone who was capable of raiding in earlier expansions will be able handle normal mode raids just fine.
    I understand that, but think about it like this. You go to an amusement park and there’s a wide variety of rides available. Your friends hit all the rides, some coming back with great prizes and stories about how fun it was. You can’t go on all the rides, and even if go on some you’re not supposed to, the experience is pretty terrible and you throw up, eventually forcing you to not do those rides anymore. You can still go to the park now, but you basically feel excluded, and your friends don’t particularly care whether you’re there or not anymore. You see them occasionally but whatever you are doing isn’t fun for them, and they talk about it negatively, if they talk about it at all, which is usually the case.

    Some people will keep going by themselves. Some people will find new friends. Most? Will probably just quit after they realize every time the park comes back into town (ie new expansions), there’s more and more rides that they can’t go on. Even their old friends start to find themselves cut off from the group somewhere along the way, stuck somewhere in the middle between you and the main group. Those people don’t want to go hang out with you anymore, and even if they do, they sort of resent having to and never really feel satisfied with it.

    I could go on, but hopefully you get it.
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  10. #310
    People who think modern rotations require any more real thought are deluding themselves.

    Here, I can sum up what pretty much everyone does.

    Spam buttons until BIG FLASHING ANIMATION appears on the screen and press corresponding button.

    It's all reactive. That's why I hate how prevalent procs became in rotations.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Wewlad View Post
    People who think modern rotations require any more real thought are deluding themselves.

    Here, I can sum up what pretty much everyone does.

    Spam buttons until BIG FLASHING ANIMATION appears on the screen and press corresponding button.

    It's all reactive. That's why I hate how prevalent procs became in rotations.
    If you want to be horrible at your role you can play like that, if you want to be a good player there is a lot more to your rotation and you also have to deal with more fight mechanics while doing them.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by mich4el View Post
    "Vanilla rotation was only 1-2 buttons" – and!?


    You think memorizing a 5-7 button rotations is hard? Not It's not and most people do it while leveling…
    Hard is never the intention of designing things like rotations.

    If a rotation is hard (extremely rare), it's probably because the design broke.
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  13. #313
    Bloodsail Admiral digichi's Avatar
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    Its just a different game. Vanilla was way more relaxing compared to today's game imo. It used to be a big challenge to just get out of one patch of fire, or stand in a specific spot. It was a huge 'oh shit' moment and then you were back to chillin.

    Now you're literally dancing in most encounters and on your toes the entire time, because there is no down time once you engage most boss fights. Raiding has stepped up the game in mythic, there is just so much going on and a lot of it rides on reaction time just to keep you on your toes. I did some mythic ToS and mythic hasnt drawn me back because i play WoW to relax and it was the least relaxing thing i've ever done in the game. It's not hard if you can get ppl who can read a journal and anticipate things / stay engaged to react to stuff, but the hard part is getting ppl not to screw up. That's pretty much it, sounds simple on paper but not in practice.

    Part of vanilla's allure was its simplicity, cause it was easy to pick up and easy to chill with.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Wewlad View Post
    People who think modern rotations require any more real thought are deluding themselves.
    Modern rotations are much more complex and so are the fights themselves.

    Vanilla raiding was brain dead easy. Easier than LFR. That's the truth. The major challenge was attunements and farming consumables.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanu View Post
    you got to be joking at this point but your signature suggests otherwise...

    what kind of 'resource management' does it take to spam frostbolt or shadow bolt?...

    unless you mean the soul shards you had to farm 2hrs before the raid started... that is technically resource management, it's highly recommended to have a young sibling (preferably 10-14) that will happily farm them for you if you let him sit on the 'big pc'...
    He could be referring to healers. We had whopping several ranks of few spells bound and had to deal with that massive level of complexity. Back in days there even was the mana conserve feature in ct raid assist (automatic interrupt for cast if the target was at full enough health) so you could mindlessly spam the spell of your choice. To make it even more challenging, if you were raid healing, you could have had the same addon targeting the lowest HP player for the cast.
    Even after they killed those features, I wouldn't say healing was that complex. Downranking added some slight aspect of such, but then again the total quantity of spells to deal with wasn't much. Additional resource management on top of that was just chaining whatever consumables there was on the table, should the encounter require so.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by ifrah View Post
    He could be referring to healers. We had whopping several ranks of few spells bound and had to deal with that massive level of complexity. Back in days there even was the mana conserve feature in ct raid assist (automatic interrupt for cast if the target was at full enough health) so you could mindlessly spam the spell of your choice. To make it even more challenging, if you were raid healing, you could have had the same addon targeting the lowest HP player for the cast.
    Even after they killed those features, I wouldn't say healing was that complex. Downranking added some slight aspect of such, but then again the total quantity of spells to deal with wasn't much. Additional resource management on top of that was just chaining whatever consumables there was on the table, should the encounter require so.
    even if we agree that healing was more complicated (tbh i consider this more like unintended behaviour and find it silly that spells have ranks but nvm that)

    does it erase the fact that i can top the meters by pressing '2' every time my bar fills up?

    as for pre-combat consumables imo it's a chore not depth, it's just a matter of having the money to buy them and clicking on their icon when they expire, it has nothing to do with skill

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    There’s a group of players who basically got left behind somewhere along the way, and the people still playing the game essentially took the attitude of “good riddance.” Over the course of 5 expansions, I watched some of my closest friends essentially hit the limit of their mental bandwidth. Everyone has their own personal wall where they simply can’t play any better. . . . Based on my experiences with my friends, the downhill slide started in wrath, but really started to take effect in cata.
    I did a double-take to make sure I hadn't actually written this. This is exactly what happened to many original/older members of my guild, what burned me out as a raid leader, and what contributed to my quitting WoW two years ago.

    There seems to have been turnover or a change to executive direction in the encounter design team between Wrath and Mists. Cataclysm, of course, increased overall difficulty that the healthy, enthusiastic 3.3-plus player base hit like a egg against a brick wall. But two years later, raid bosses had more and more simultaneously active mechanics, especially ones that visually and spatially overlapped — and painfully, ones that heavily emphasized group punishment for failure. We held onto our best guild members and kept numbers steady, but about half of the guild from 2009 and earlier dropped out when they clearly wouldn't have otherwise.

    As a 25-man normal guild in Wrath, we maintained trajectory by running heroics in Warlords. We managed to clear with AoTC until Archimonde, when the number of boss abilities, environmental hazards and movement queues in Phase 3 — there are 10overwhelmed half of the guild's working memory. Otherwise smart people and decent players could not keep all they had to do in their brain, even with me calling it out. Even with all the gear upgrades. At one point I joined a pug on grounds that a raid leader was as good as AoTC, and one-shot the boss in the top 5 DPS. The kill didn't really matter, though, because I couldn't enjoy it with my friends and gaming family.

  18. #318
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich4el View Post
    How am I suppose to know which one of the 10000th videos on youtube you're talking about?
    Give me a link
    It's simple...all of Vanilla was like that...if you think Vanilla was complex (It obviously wasn't) then live is extreme super hardcore. But look who I'm talking to...another person with that stupid sig...did you hear? BfA has the most opening sales of WoW's expansion history...where is Vanilla to take all of those subs?

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Bennett View Post
    Time to stand still for 5 seconds because my mana is running low/ my threat is too high. Sounds fun to me
    ) i can so relate to that and yes it was "so so fun"

  20. #320
    Deleted
    I loved the time we could use different ranks of spells and still had the 5-seconds rule on my Priest (TBC). It took real skill to downrank and know when you could stop casting for a while to get mana to prepare for damage spikes. Now I can just heal until the fight ends and still have mana left over. It's easier and boring.

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