Horde lost in the Battle for the Undercity

[Deleted]

The few times she did go to Silvermoon is when she threatened to destroy it by withdrawing her troops if the BE don't send soldiers to Northend after they said they have no soldiers to spare. Most of the time the Undercity is mentioned when talking about her home, she even wants to leave Ogrimmar and return back if it wasn't for the Warchief title that holds her to Ogrimmar.

She didn't threaten to destroy it, she threatened to withdraw her support of the Forsaken - a world of difference. To quote WowPedia:

With the Horde now dedicated to a Northrend campaign, Lady Sylvanas and a group of Royal Dreadguards traveled to Sunfury Spire to gain the support of the blood elves towards the war effort. She was met by her old comrade, Lor'themar Theron, Regent Lord of Quel'Thalas, along with Grand Magister Rommath and the current Ranger-general of Silvermoon, Halduron Brightwing. Sylvanas instructed Lor'themar to send a force of blood elves -- magisters, Farstriders and Blood Knights—to Northrend, though Lor'themar was apprehensive, reasoning that he had only just overcome the war on Quel'Danas. Sylvanas noted that the blood elves are a part of the Horde only by her hand and that if they do not mobilize they would surely lose its support - and Forsaken support in their lands. With his arm twisted, Lor'themar relented, and agreed to send a contingent of blood elves to the Undercity.

If you can't make a point without using hyperbole and outright lying then you had no point to begin with.

[ausoin]

No, it's not. Sylvanas at no point makes it a point that she wants to lose the city to the Alliance.

Where are just gonna keep repeating ourselves, in short, did Sylvanas wanted to lose her city? No.
Did she intent to not keep it from the get go as part of some mastermind? No, again have the last resort option doesn't mean you wanted to use that option from the start.

[ausoin]

She didn't threaten to destroy it, she threatened to withdraw her support of the Forsaken - a world of difference. To quote WowPedia:

With the Horde now dedicated to a Northrend campaign, Lady Sylvanas and a group of Royal Dreadguards traveled to Sunfury Spire to gain the support of the blood elves towards the war effort. She was met by her old comrade, Lor'themar Theron, Regent Lord of Quel'Thalas, along with Grand Magister Rommath and the current Ranger-general of Silvermoon, Halduron Brightwing. Sylvanas instructed Lor'themar to send a force of blood elves -- magisters, Farstriders, and Blood Knights—to Northrend, though Lor'themar was apprehensive, reasoning that he had only just overcome the war on Quel'Danas. Sylvanas noted that the blood elves are a part of the Horde only by her hand and that if they do not mobilize they would surely lose its support - and Forsaken support in their lands. With his arm twisted, Lor'themar relented, and agreed to send a contingent of blood elves to the Undercity.

If you can't make a point without using hyperbole and outright lying then you had no point, to begin with.

Withdrawing her troops would mean certain destruction from the undead. Just because the Horde stoped being allies doesn't mean Sylvanas will be forced to do the same, at that time she and the Forsaken did stuff like creating a plague and had no interference from the rest of the Horde because they were so far away, the Horde had no say in Forsaken decions and actions.

I am on the Horde side and Sylvannas fan boy. I don't think horde won the Undercity but they didn't lose it either. I think Alliance lost it more than the Horde did. I mean they came there to fight and win back the Undercity and put to an end "Sylvannas crusade" but they ended up empty handed.

Yes they did, it was a pyhric victory for the Alliance just like War of Thorns was for the Horde, the Horde lost their biggest military centre in the continent.

[Tripzzz]

Slyvanus didnt plan for Jaina at all. So her plan to kill the Alliance leadership was a complete failure from the beginning. For someone who is said to be a "genius" she sure lacked the foresight to predict something as obvious as Jaina( or the Vindicaar for that matter). The horde were protected by plot armor.

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I am on the Horde side and Sylvannas fan boy. I don't think horde won the Undercity but they didn't lose it either. I think Alliance lost it more than the Horde did. I mean they came there to fight and win back the Undercity and put to an end "Sylvannas crusade" but they ended up empty handed.

Not exactly. We arrested Saurfang.

[Deleted]

Where are just gonna keep repeating ourselves, in short, did Sylvanas wanted to lose her city? No.
Did she intent to not keep it from the get go as part of some mastermind? No, again have the last resort option doesn't mean you wanted to use that option from the start.

If you wanna play that game again then - did the Alliance want to retake the city? Yes. Did they achieve it? No. Did they capture Sylvanas? No. Did she plan on losing it after Teldrassil? Yes. Did Sylvanas retreat to draw the Alliance in? Yes. Did they fall for this and head in? Yes. Did she lay a trap for the Alliance leaders ahead of time in the event this would happen? Yes. Did they walk into that trap too? Yes.

If she had planned on losing Undercity from the start because she knew what the Alliance's response would be, then the fact that it's a last resort is utterly irrelevant and a blatant strawman - the point is, she planned to lose it immediately after Teldrassil, rigged the city as such, deployed the blight to inflict as many Alliance casualties while retreating (purposely to draw the Alliance in), and ultimately got away, leaving them with nothing to show for it. Everything objective the Alliance went in there with they failed, and every objective the Horde planned for (excluding Saurfang's suicide mission) they succeeded. That is the bare-faced truth you cannot seem to accept because it ultimately just embarrasses the Alliance, because that is what most people will remember even if neither side actually won.

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Withdrawing her troops would mean certain destruction from the undead. Just because the Horde stoped being allies doesn't mean Sylvanas will be forced to do the same, at that time she and the Forsaken did stuff like creating a plague and had no interference from the rest of the Horde because they were so far away, the Horde had no say in Forsaken decions and actions

So basically you're relying on hyperbole and headcanon to make a point because the actual truth doesn't make Sylvanas look as bad as you want her too, I get it. No wonder nobody takes your "points" seriously...

[Tripzzz]

If you wanna play that game again then - did the Alliance want to retake the city? Yes. Did they achieve it? No. Did they capture Sylvanas? No. Did she plan on losing it after Teldrassil? Yes. Did Sylvanas retreat to draw the Alliance in? Yes. Did they fall for this and head in? Yes. Did she lay a trap for the Alliance leaders ahead of time in the event this would happen? Yes. Did they walk into that trap too? Yes.

If she had planned on losing Undercity from the start because she knew what the Alliance's response would be, then the fact that it's a last resort is utterly irrelevant and a blatant strawman - the point is, she planned to lose it immediately after Teldrassil, rigged the city as such, deployed the blight to inflict as many Alliance casualties while retreating (purposely to draw the Alliance in), and ultimately got away, leaving them with nothing to show for it. Everything objective the Alliance went in there with they failed, and every objective the Horde planned for (excluding Saurfang's suicide mission) they succeeded. That is the bare-faced truth you cannot seem to accept because it ultimately just embarrasses the Alliance, because that is what most people will remember even if neither side actually won.

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So basically you're relying on hyperbole and headcanon to make a point because the actual truth doesn't make Sylvanas look as bad as you want her too, I get it. No wonder nobody takes your "points" seriously...

Forcing the Forsaken to abandon Undercity, completely obliterating Brill, and capturing Saurfang is "nothing"? Too funny.

[Deleted]

Slyvanus didnt plan for Jaina at all. So her plan to kill the Alliance leadership was a complete failure from the beginning. For someone who is said to be a "genius" she sure lacked the foresight to predict something as obvious as Jaina( or the Vindicaar for that matter). The horde were protected by plot armor.

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Not exactly. We arrested Saurfang.

Yeah because Sylvanas should have totally anticipated a mage who hasn't been seen for an entire expansion to show up just at exactly the right time with Deus Ex Machina abilities just when the Alliance were getting slaughtered, yeah of course

If we're talking lack of foresight, then why don't we also mention the Alliance's utter stupidity in not anticipating the Horde's use of any blight even though they have been using it since WOTLK? All those veteran leaders, tens of thousands of soldiers, and not one of them thought to expect blight to be used? Please. You wanna talk about plot armour, what was it exactly that saved your 4 dumbass leaders walking into a room rigged with blight and nearly getting owned all at once? Yup, rock solid plot armour.

Next...

[ausoin]

If you wanna play that game again then - did the Alliance want to retake the city? Yes. Did they achieve it? No. Did they capture Sylvanas? No. Did she plan on losing it after Teldrassil? Yes. Did Sylvanas retreat to draw the Alliance in? Yes. Did they fall for this and head in? Yes. Did she lay a trap for the Alliance leaders ahead of time in the event this would happen? Yes. Did they walk into that trap too? Yes.

If she had planned on losing Undercity from the start because she knew what the Alliance's response would be, then the fact that it's a last resort is utterly irrelevant and a blatant strawman - the point is, she planned to lose it immediately after Teldrassil, rigged the city as such, deployed the blight to inflict as many Alliance casualties while retreating (purposely to draw the Alliance in), and ultimately got away, leaving them with nothing to show for it. Everything objective the Alliance went in there with they failed, and every objective the Horde planned for (excluding Saurfang's suicide mission) they succeeded. That is the bare-faced truth you cannot seem to accept because it ultimately just embarrasses the Alliance, because that is what most people will remember even if neither side actually won.

Purposely to draw the Alliance in? How is blighting the entire area in front of the walls gonna draw them in? That only forced them to retreat. If it wasn't for Jaina they wouldn't have been able to enter the city. So cleary Sylvnas did not want them to enter the city.

Every objective the Horde went into the War or Thorns was also a complete failure, that way it was a pyhricc victory same as the Alliance, or you can say nobody won the battles, but then that means in the War of Thorns also nobody won the battle. Can you accept that?

The Horde objective was to WIN! Did you watch the opening cinematic, where the army charges out and almost wins, did you see the whole chokepoint guarded by a massive army meant to rout the enemy which would have happened if it wasn't for Alleria? Also, Sylavnas planned to kill off the Alliance leadership to win the battle, that's what Surfang was talking about when he discovered the plot, and hence "if you return", it was a tactic to win the battle, that's in game, she wanted to win, that was her intent.

Yeah because Sylvanas should have totally anticipated a mage who hasn't been seen for an entire expansion to show up just at exactly the right time with Deus Ex Machina abilities just when the Alliance were getting slaughtered, yeah of course

If we're talking lack of foresight, then why don't we also mention the Alliance's utter stupidity in not anticipating the Horde's use of any blight even though they have been using it since WOTLK? All those veteran leaders, tens of thousands of soldiers, and not one of them thought to expect blight to be used? Please. You wanna talk about plot armour, what was it exactly that saved your 4 dumbass leaders walking into a room rigged with blight and nearly getting owned all at once? Yup, rock solid plot armour.

Next...

Why didnt Jaina just ice blocked Sylvanas the second they entered? Like she did in the Undercity before? Yeah they are not the only ones with plot armor.

So basically you're relying on hyperbole and headcanon to make a point because the actual truth doesn't make Sylvanas look as bad as you want her too, I get it. No wonder nobody takes your "points" seriously...

Keep talking to yourself if it makes you fell better, nobody takes my points seriously? Yeah sure ,again keep convicing yourself everybody who dissagess with you is in the minority and you are so right.

[eurojust]

The whole point of this battle was to show us how Anduin and the rest of the alliance military are just dumb and incompetent. "God damn it they used blight, we weren't expecting that at all!!!"
And i'm not even mentionning the moment they meet Sylvanas in the throne room and expect her to surrender which is beyond retarded.

[Florena]

I see both battles as only partial victories.

Sylvanas torched Teldrassil, but this was not her initial plan. She failed to break the night elf fight spirit and failed to divide the alliance, and had to burn Teldrassil rather than using it.

The Alliance claims the area around Undercity but the city itself is left unusable and Sylvanas gets away. They won the military fight but failed to catch Sylvanas. Likewise, Sylvanas' plan also failed because of Jaina getting the Alliance leaders out of the room, and a good chunk of the alliance forces withdrawing to Brill beforehand. We know Mekkatorque's forces must have made it out okay because he's not dead, and so did the alliance forces with Saurfang. All of this on top of the fact that Sylvanas wasn't able to hold her own city. Some alliance forces were lost but the horde army there was also routed.

Nobody really wins, everybody loses. Such is the price of the faction war.

[Tripzzz]

Yeah because Sylvanas should have totally anticipated a mage who hasn't been seen for an entire expansion to show up just at exactly the right time with Deus Ex Machina abilities just when the Alliance were getting slaughtered, yeah of course

If we're talking lack of foresight, then why don't we also mention the Alliance's utter stupidity in not anticipating the Horde's use of any blight even though they have been using it since WOTLK? All those veteran leaders, tens of thousands of soldiers, and not one of them thought to expect blight to be used? Please. You wanna talk about plot armour, what was it exactly that saved your 4 dumbass leaders walking into a room rigged with blight and nearly getting owned all at once? Yup, rock solid plot armour.

Next...

Does Slyvanus not know mages can teleport? And the fact the Alliance didnt plan for the blight is plot armor in the horde's favor. The Alliance should have used the Vindicaar to literally fly over the blighted ground and zap undead with holy light. But Blizzard said they didn't use the Vindicaar because that isn't the story they wanted to tell, because the Horde is being protected by plot armor.

Vindicaar + Lightforged warframes = dead Horde. That's a fact.

[Deleted]

Forcing the Forsaken to abandon Undercity, completely obliterating Brill, and capturing Saurfang is "nothing"? Too funny.

Ahh another desperate Alliance fanboy trying to spin strategic a plan to lose Undercity as being "forced to abandon" in a desperate attempt to deflect attention from:

1 - Their leaders walking into a trap and needing Deus Ex Jaina to save them
2 - Also losing Lordaeron
3 - Suffering heavy casualties because they were too stupid to not anticipate the use of blight

You state "Decimation of Brill" like it was some heroic victory? It was a zeppelin tower and a handful of houses with no military support - really nothing to shout about, although it does further expose your desperation to make it look like the Alliance actually got something from this.

Good for you, you captured Saurfang - has he proved to be of anything useful? He doesn't like the Horde any more than he does the Alliance so all he's doing for you right now is taking up one especially large cell in the Stockades doing sweet nothing. Again though, I can see your desperate to paint this as some kind of win for the Alliance even though in reality it amounts to nothing...just like the rest of the entire battle for the Alliance.

Seriously, I've seen these same old arguments time and time again, it's getting quite tedious repeating the same facts to debunk them over and over.

[Tripzzz]

Ahh another desperate Alliance fanboy trying to spin strategic a plan to lose Undercity as being "forced to abandon" in a desperate attempt to deflect attention from:

1 - Their leaders walking into a trap and needing Deus Ex Jaina to save them
2 - Also losing Lordaeron
3 - Suffering heavy casualties because they were too stupid to not anticipate the use of blight

You state "Decimation of Brill" like it was some heroic victory? It was a zeppelin tower and a handful of houses with no military support - really nothing to shout about, although it does further expose your desperation to make it look like the Alliance actually got something from this.

Good for you, you captured Saurfang - has he proved to be of anything useful? He doesn't like the Horde any more than he does the Alliance so all he's doing for you right now is taking up one especially large cell in the Stockades doing sweet nothing. Again though, I can see your desperate to paint this as some kind of win for the Alliance even though in reality it amounts to nothing...just like the rest of the entire battle for the Alliance.

Seriously, I've seen these same old arguments time and time again, it's getting quite tedious repeating the same facts to debunk them over and over.

Slyvanus was forced to abandon Undercity. Just because she accepts it as necessary doesn't mean she wasnt forced.

1. Her trap failed to kill the leaders.
2. Slyvanus still gave up Undercity.
3. Blizzard nerfed the Alliance by not using the Vindicaar for no reason.
4. Slyvanus was still too stupid to not plan for Jaina.

Brill was actually fairly important. It's rubble now.

Saurfang was a high ranking horde member. Him leaving the Horde as a direct result of the battle for lordaeron is good for the Alliance. Many horde members look up to Saurfang, having him leaving Slyvanus' horde will start to divide the horde.

[Deleted]

*sigh* Certain people on this thread is a shining example of why so many Alliance have a reputation for being crybaby's with hero complexes - because even in the face of all the cinematic and lore and historic evidence that shows they win nothing, they simply must have it they won something, because they are so used to having their own way. Even if it means the Horde gain nothing either and a battle ultimately ended in a draw for both sides, this is not enough - it has to be that they still come out of it with more than the Horde, and it can absolutely never be the case that the Horde outsmarted them even if they come out of it with nothing either. There is no compromise for some people, and no reasoning with them - it has to absolute clear-cut "Win for Alliance, loss for Horde" and not an iota less, and if the fact that this merry-go-round thread has lasted 21 pages now is not clear cut proof of that, I don't know what is. Even a vast majority of Alliance fans on here and on the EU and US forums are begrudgingly admitting that it was a draw for both factions even if the Horde come out of it looking the better but just a few bad apples on here can't even take that, such are their unrelenting bias and fragile faction egos. If they were to hold their hands up and accept what a vast majority of people on BOTH sides are saying, which is that neither faction won, then I would happily accept that and move on - that's all me and so many others have been arguing for. It wouldn't take much, but for a select number of individuals that is simply too much pride to swallow, and that is why we are still here going round in circles. It's so utterly pointless.

[Tripzzz]

*sigh* Certain people on this thread is a shining example of why so many Alliance have a reputation for being crybaby's with hero complexes - because even in the face of all the cinematic and lore and historic evidence that shows they win nothing, they simply must have it they won something, because they are so used to having their own way. Even if it means the Horde gain nothing either and a battle ultimately ended in a draw for both sides, this is not enough - it has to be that they still come out of it with more than the Horde, and it can absolutely never be the case that the Horde outsmarted them even if they come out of it with nothing either. There is no compromise for some people, and no reasoning with them - it has to absolute clear-cut "Win for Alliance, loss for Horde" and not an iota less, and if the fact that this merry-go-round thread has lasted 21 pages now is not clear cut proof of that, I don't know what is. Even a vast majority of Alliance fans on here and on the EU and US forums are begrudgingly admitting that it was a draw for both factions even if the Horde come out of it looking the better but just a few bad apples on here can't even take that, such are their unrelenting bias and fragile faction egos. If they were to hold their hands up and accept what a vast majority of people on BOTH sides are saying, which is that neither faction won, then I would happily accept that and move on - that's all me and so many others have been arguing for. It wouldn't take much, but for a select number of individuals that is simply too much pride to swallow, and that is why we are still here going round in circles. It's so utterly pointless.

Lmao. I never said it was a win for the Alliance. I argued against your claim the Alliance had nothing to show for it. Brill was wiped out. Undercity was abandoned. Saurfang left the Horde. These are simply the facts.

[Bigbazz]

Did you really just compare an old fictional orc to a real life orc and somehow think that was a viable comparison? Saurfang is old by orc standards. Hes been around forever. He is at this point more likely to die from old age than combat. Dispute it all you want, but comparing him to trump in any fashion other than odd skin color is just off.

Yes I did, because they are both leaders/potential leaders... It's ridiculous that you think a wise 60 year old muscle monster is too old to lead, meanwhile a 72 year old decrepid buffoon leads the real world. Saurfang is one of the strongest orcs still, they stay strong and physically capable until old age, and 60 isn't that old.

[Ielenia]

Then tell me... Why she didn't want to keep her city? Why she couldn't fight with the Alliance? Why she didn't fight as long as possible? Why she LOST her home?

That is irrelevant to the question at hand. We're not talking about "why she didn't want to keep her city" (which is a huge strawman in its own right, btw) or "why she couldn't fight the Alliance".

So, if my objective is to die - does that mean I win? Even if my opponent objective is to kill me?
Nice logics there.

We're talking about Sylvanas, not Saurfang, here.

Just answer me - they won or lost?
Because you're good at avoiding that question.

Because it's an irrelevant question. We're talking about Sylvanas and the battle for Lordaeron, not real life history battles.

[SherriMayim]

The fact is that Blizzard has to nerf Alliance in these situations or Horde cries favoritism.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

If this is how the Horde "loses" something, then the faction bias is pretty clear in the story telling.

[Jastall]

It seems a lot of what she does is unknown to anyone but Blizzard right now. The pre=patch events lean toward her thinking she could win with the blight, but then Jaina shows up. I think at that point her contingency plan was to kill the Alliance leadership with her trap in the throne room but Jaina again. At this point I don't know if it's part of her plan or she is getting thwarted so I'll just throw my hands up and say I have no fucking idea.

To me it just seems like she had backup plans. The Azerite war machine was plan A, it got rekt. Blight was plan B, Jaina mucked that up. The ambush in the city was plan C (or maybe improvised after seeing the Alliance entered via 1 choke point), Alleria countered it. Now that the Alliance has taken the field, the Horde withdraws and plan D is the scorched earth policy that hopefully kills several important Alliance leaders and denies the Alliance their prize.

Obviously the ideal scenario was not to lose the Undercity. But unlike Anduin she planned for things going south with multiple contingencies. There's a reason Undercity was evacuated.