Bloomberg: The U.S. Can’t Bring Russia ‘to Its Knees’

[Shalcker]

Frankly, the world's already in crisis. Russian aggression is a large factor in that crisis.

Possible. World have been strained for a while due to US reckless behavior.

Also, some of us grew up when the USSR was still a "thing"; the world does not "need" Russia in any respect whatsoever. The "crisis" would just require some rejiggering of energy production. Sure, it would cost some money, but that's all we're talking about. And the Western world isn't hurting that bad for money.

I think you're underestimating how much "rejiggering" it would require, as well as how long it takes to get things going in energy sector.

Decades at least.

All while Russia will happily sell that same oil to China at inflated prices.

We've entered a global state where warfare isn't fought with violence, it's largely fought with economics and information. What you're describing is Russia trying to start such a war, and that the rest of the Western world has to decide whether to fight back in the same manner, or capitulate. And suggesting we won't fight, because it's hard.

Trying to start such war? Where exactly?

Oh, you mean information war? While US does economic war?

Why exactly do you think Russia should not respond in such war, given that there is no benefit in surrendering at all?

That's an argument that's basically never worked out.

Look, it's simple. If you actually succeed, there will be hot war. No two ways about it.

If you're ready to do hot war if that's what it takes to keep Russia down, then sure, go ahead.

Don't assume you'll manage to get Russia down before it plays out though.

Especially when modern Russia is far weaker than the USSR was. The USSR was a superpower, able to go toe-to-toe with the USA. Russia is not. It's economy is struggling (GDP per capita sitting right around that of Greece, whose economy famously crashed). Russia desperately does not want an economic war, because it cannot afford to lose one.

Why are you linking PPP per capita if in actual inter-country weight comparison GDP PPP is a lot more relevant, and there Russia is right behind Germany?

Do you think Germany is irrelevant today?

[Ulmita]

There is no way in hell that US can bring Russia's economy down if they don't manage to drag them in a spending spree, like lets say an arms race.

Putin is aware of this, he has said publicly multiple times that they wont get drawn in one, and they will just secure their borders with bigger and badder WMOs (which they are doing and its working).

Russia, as the wealthiest country (from natural resources pov) can only grow from here. The only thing they are missing is the population, which they can solve by immigration.

Lastly, economics now days are politics. We are witnessing how Europe gives zero fracks about the Americans barking (Germany in particular). They WILL buy their natural gas and oil if the price is good enough to keep their products getting produced cheaper and their economies growing.

Lastly, i want to point something out here. In my honest opinion USA is doing a HUGE MISTAKE that weaponises its currency. USD as the biggest world reserve currency its loosing HUGELY its credibility (and has already lost quite a bit of its status post Trump era). There are already loud calls throughout Europe calling for creating different payment systems than Swift and IMF, as well as, countries have started stockpilling and repatriating gold, and starting to trade with alternate currencies.

If Donald does a miscalculation in his external politics especially concerning Europe (like imposing taxes to EU cars as he said), most propably he will set in motion events that will lead to USD dropping from world currency, whatever that means for global economy as we know it.

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Hey Endus, China is around 30 places behind Russia and Greece in GDPPC.

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just leaving this for sht and giggles
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-urges-...nce/a-45242528

Wanna see Trump imposing 25% tax to EU cars

[xChurch]

Russia has a lower GDP than Italy, they are already on their knee's and just refuse to accept it. It's fine though, they can continue to waste money on a military that would never compete with the US anyway and Nukes that will most likely never get used.

[Theodarzna]

Well I mean they already tried via installing Yeltsin and then helping Oligarchs rape the country near to death in the 90's, so Idk what else America can do other than invade which given the Russians have a nuclear arsenal is not going to happen.

[Shalcker]

Russia has a lower GDP than Italy, they are already on their knee's and just refuse to accept it.

Why should we accept defeat if we cannot be forced to do that?

What kind of defeat is that anyway if we keep doing same thing we did before being "defeated"?

It's fine though, they can continue to waste money on a military that would never compete with the US anyway and Nukes that will most likely never get used.

Yes, it'll keep being World #2 military for a while.

...also, speaking of waste, USA is certainly #1 in that regard as well.

[Deleted]

Many of us believe that it would be of FAR greater interest to instead of sanctioning Russia, going after oligarchs and their fortunes, most of which are assets in Western democracies.

Russia demanded you do so for years, but you wanted the stolen money..because you careeee soooo much for the Russian people and what exactly do you intend to do with said money? steal it?

[xChurch]

Why should we accept defeat if we cannot be forced to do that?

What kind of defeat is that anyway if we keep doing same thing we did before being "defeated"?

I mean...maybe because the war Russia is fighting ended decades ago?

Yes, it'll keep being World #2 military for a while.

...also, speaking of waste, USA is certainly #1 in that regard as well.

#2 in numbers maybe, but I feel Russia's military isn't exactly in tip-top shape given their financial problems. We're still waiting for a lot of the new stuff Russia has promised since before the cold war ended...

[Theodarzna]

I mean...maybe because the war Russia is fighting ended decades ago?



#2 in numbers maybe, but I feel Russia's military isn't exactly in tip-top shape given their financial problems. We're still waiting for a lot of the new stuff Russia has promised since before the cold war ended...

Versus the current Cold War 2: Electric Boogaloo being conjured by the establishment media and congresscritters?

[Deleted]

-snip-

btw, if I were you I'd ignore Felya since he has spammed to reach 38k posts (!!!) you are just feeding the lil' monster that got nothing better to do.

Skroe, is at least amusing. I would never put him on ignore!

[xChurch]

Versus the current Cold War 2: Electric Boogaloo being conjured by the establishment media and congresscritters?

You mean the Cold War the Russian's have been trying to kick back up with their land snatching and widespread election/cultural interference? The West won, I'd imagine most people couldn't have cared less about Russia afterwards, unfortunately they have had a harder time accepting their loss. For years now the avg. Russian has cared most about how Russia looks to the world than how well they are actually doing, it's a recipe for where we are now.

[Theodarzna]

You mean the Cold War the Russian's have been trying to kick back up with their land snatching and widespread election/cultural interference? The West won, I'd imagine most people couldn't have cared less about Russia afterwards, unfortunately they have had a harder time accepting their loss. For years now the avg. Russian has cared most about how Russia looks to the world than how well they are actually doing, it's a recipe for where we are now.

Coming from the US that accusation seems horrifically hypocritical.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Versus the current Cold War 2: Electric Boogaloo being conjured by the establishment media and congresscritters?

"How many stupid right wing dog whistles and conspiracies can you fit into one hyperbole", truly a work of art.

[xChurch]

Coming from the US that accusation seems horrifically hypocritical.

I'm not saying that as an American, I'm saying that as a concerned member of the West. Regardless of what America has done, it doesn't justify what Russia is doing now. Considering Russia's rapid decline following the Cold War, most people probably would have been content to just ignore them, but no, they have to keep acting like a super power even though that status only ever belonged to the USSR.

[Shalcker]

I mean...maybe because the war Russia is fighting ended decades ago?

Exactly. Why you cannot accept it and move on rather then keeping up Russian boogieman image?

It should be noted that this "old war" didn't end up with Russian defeat as far as Russian opinion is concerned.

#2 in numbers maybe, but I feel Russia's military isn't exactly in tip-top shape given their financial problems. We're still waiting for a lot of the new stuff Russia has promised since before the cold war ended...

It is #2 overall not because it's "almost-equal-to-USA", but because noone else has both decades of focused scientific progress for latest toys AND willingness to make an effort.

China has manpower and willingness, but still catching up on science.

[xChurch]

Exactly. Why you cannot accept it and move on rather then keeping up Russian boogieman image?

It should be noted that this "old war" didn't end up with Russian defeat as far as Russian opinion is concerned.

You just contradicted yourself there. Either it's the West that didn't move on or Russia doesn't think they lost and the war is over, it can't be both. As it stands though it is Russia who has grabbed chunks of land from other sovereign nations and Russia who has engaged in widespread disinformation campaigns throughout the West. Seems pretty clear who can't let go of the cold war to me.

It is #2 overall not because it's "almost-equal-to-USA", but because noone else has both decades of focused scientific progress for latest toys AND willingness to make an effort.

China has manpower and willingness, but still catching up on science.

As I said before, we're still waiting for all that fancy tech you guys have been promising since before the cold war ended. Or even the stuff Putin has personally promised like their Stealth nuke that...has failed every test so far and is still years out inspite of politicians trying their damnest to force it. Face it, Russia doesn't even have close to the money to support a high tech military. This was true during the USSR days and things haven't magically gotten easier since...maybe if you guys lose all those nukes? hmm...

[Theodarzna]

I'm not saying that as an American, I'm saying that as a concerned member of the West. Regardless of what America has done, it doesn't justify what Russia is doing now. Considering Russia's rapid decline following the Cold War, most people probably would have been content to just ignore them, but no, they have to keep acting like a super power even though that status only ever belonged to the USSR.

So, wanting to remake the entire planet in ones image is not interference and the legions of horrible acts by western powers to interfere in other countries is fine?

[Cthulhu 2020]

As I said before, we're still waiting for all that fancy tech you guys have been promising since before the cold war ended. Or even the stuff Putin has personally promised like their Stealth nuke that...has failed every test so far and is still years out inspite of politicians trying their damnest to force it. Face it, Russia doesn't even have close to the money to support a high tech military. This was true during the USSR days and things haven't magically gotten easier since...maybe if you guys lose all those nukes? hmm...

Gotta love how the Russiabots keep declaring Russian tech is so amazing, and then a demo of some amazing new tech is announced to occur soon and then is canceled or never happens for mysterious reasons. Every. Single. Time.

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So, wanting to remake the entire planet in ones image is not interference and the legions of horrible acts by western powers to interfere in other countries is fine?

The fact that you give a pass to Russia literally annexing sovereign countries and bitch about American "imperialism" tells anyone all they really need to know about how little you actually know and how much of a hypocrite you are.

[xChurch]

So, wanting to remake the entire planet in ones image is not interference and the legions of horrible acts by western powers to interfere in other countries is fine?

Welcome to humanity. There are no good guys here and there have never been. Every major country or grouping is trying to remake the world in some sense or another. At the end of the day, you have to pick a side and I'm more comfortable on the side of Liberty and Democracy than I am on the side of Dictators and Order. You can still call a spade a spade, but you still have to choose which way of doing things is overall the most advantageous and historically, our current way has provided us with unprecedented advancement and peace so it gets my vote.

Gotta love how the Russiabots keep declaring Russian tech is so amazing, and then a demo of some amazing new tech is announced to occur soon and then is canceled or never happens for mysterious reasons. Every. Single. Time.

The best part is that this has been going on decades at this point. The US is already working on upgrades to the level of stuff the Russians have yet to even deploy on mass. It'd be sad if it wasn't so damn hilarious.

[Felya]

Coming from the US that accusation seems horrifically hypocritical.

Only if you don’t know what Russia has been doing for the last 20 years.

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So, wanting to remake the entire planet in ones image is not interference and the legions of horrible acts by western powers to interfere in other countries is fine?

No, they are also bad. What’s with the moral relativism?

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The best part is that this has been going on decades at this point. The US is already working on upgrades to the level of stuff the Russians have yet to even deploy on mass. It'd be sad if it wasn't so damn hilarious.

In large part because most of you don’t speak Russian. You cannot know what Russia has been saying about the US for the last 20 years. Well... actually you do... listen to Theo... it’s that, but also blaming US and the west for every problem Russia has.

Edit: Sorry for the edit. But, no we are not doing the bold. Russia is using subversion, because it’s easier to subvert a free information society, than it is to win any war. The only way to fight subversion or the tact Russia is using, is education. Something that is objectively not being upgraded, with Nacy DeVos at the head of education and rhetoric of evil professors. You cannot say anything is being upgraded, at the height of the alternative facts era.

[Shalcker]

You just contradicted yourself there. Either it's the West that didn't move on or Russia doesn't think they lost and the war is over, it can't be both. As it stands though it is Russia who has grabbed chunks of land from other sovereign nations and Russia who has engaged in widespread disinformation campaigns throughout the West. Seems pretty clear who can't let go of the cold war to me.

War was over because Russia walked out of it on it's own volition.
You promoted your way heavily, and so Russians decided "Screw war, let's try it Western way". That is all. There was no "defeat". We went capitalism and eventually got pretty decent at it.

Meanwhile West/US never moved on from that war and still tried to fight it - expanding NATO, leaving ABM treaties and so on.
For a while Russia went "Are you dumb? Hello, it's not USSR anymore! We can just work together on common security and be friends, or at least keep competition just to economics."
And then eventually it was accepted that you simply cannot imagine your existence without keeping that war alive. Sad, but true. That you would want Russia down no matter if we'd were fully "compatible" with West, fully communist, fully authoritarian, or fully democratic. You would always find some excuse.

Do you know that, for example, Jackson-Vanik amendment was enacted specifically over restriction of migration from USSR (mostly jews) - restriction that was lifted in 1991! ... and then it still stayed for 20 more years, and only was brought down when they could replace it with new one, Magnistky Act.

Now you're trying to claim that old victory and bend us to your will over your supposed 20-year-old "win" that never happened. Since ending war was our decision, not yours, that is hilarious.

What would we gain, even theoretically, from admitting defeat? You certainly cannot be relied on your promises - not that you ever promised us anything but our destruction lately, it's all stick no carrot.

And since there is no upside here, there is no downside going against your wishes either.

As I said before, we're still waiting for all that fancy tech you guys have been promising since before the cold war ended. Or even the stuff Putin has personally promised like their Stealth nuke that...has failed every test so far and is still years out inspite of politicians trying their damnest to force it. Face it, Russia doesn't even have close to the money to support a high tech military. This was true during the USSR days and things haven't magically gotten easier since...maybe if you guys lose all those nukes? hmm...

Face it, Russia has and will be having enough money to support high-tech military.

Exactly because military is not going to get all the money all the time, unlike in US. Things will be developed, improved, and then mass-produced when they are ready for it, and when economy can support them.