Rogue: hate RtB? Would this help?

[Muguin]

RTB is not interactive..... you just press the same button 5 cp later because you didn't roll well. If there was a meter that popped up with like red, blue and green zones and red was a 1 buff, blue a 2, and green a 3 buff then that would be interactive and reward a skilled player. The argument that it is interactive and you have to adapt to your buff is a load of crap. RTB was fine in legion beta and then they nerfed it to shit. RTB was terrible all the way to Antorus and then in Antorus SND was better. The outlaw discord was ran by someone for all of legion that hated snd and that why snd is a meme there.

[Sephiroso]

RTB is not interactive..... you just press the same button 5 cp later because you didn't roll well. If there was a meter that popped up with like red, blue and green zones and red was a 1 buff, blue a 2, and green a 3 buff then that would be interactive and reward a skilled player. The argument that it is interactive and you have to adapt to your buff is a load of crap. RTB was fine in legion beta and then they nerfed it to shit. RTB was terrible all the way to Antorus and then in Antorus SND was better. The outlaw discord was ran by someone for all of legion that hated snd and that why snd is a meme there.

if you don't think the buffs don't change up what you do then you're a subpar player. Broadsides changes how you play(using finishers at 3(with opportunity and quick draw or 4 cp). The crit one changes what you do(using BtE on cd). Grand Melee even to an extent changes what you could otherwise survive.

[LilSaihah]

I don't like RtB so I play SnD+Paradise Lost. I don't care much for fishing and constantly rolling 1buff, 1buff, 1buff until the end of time is the worst.

I don't think the OP's suggestion would ever happen as it appears that fishing is the intended playstyle.

[Muguin]

If you think using your finisher 1 cp sooner or using BTE instead of Dispatch once or twice is "interactive" you may be the sub player. RTB is just a hindrance on the consistency of the spec disguised as a new and innovative ability. They need to move RTB where loaded dice is and make loaded baseline with RTB. Moving MfD where slice is and replacing mfd with the combo storage of 5 would work.

[Sephiroso]

If you think using your finisher 1 cp sooner or using BTE instead of Dispatch once or twice is "interactive" you may be the sub player. RTB is just a hindrance on the consistency of the spec disguised as a new and innovative ability. They need to move RTB where loaded dice is and make loaded baseline with RTB. Moving MfD where slice is and replacing mfd with the combo storage of 5 would work.

Right, i'm the subpar player when you're the one complaining about Outlaw despite it being very strong right now and not at all comparable to how it was in legion numbers wise.

[Muguin]

Where did i say anything about outlaw not being strong right now?

[Wnderful Weeknd]

Here to chime in on the argument about RtB being engaging and fun.

It's all subjective but I'd love to see a poll with a large sample size to see who actually enjoys it. Personally, I love RtB and I like, conceptually, the different buffs and how they can affect your playstyle but I feel like in the current state that simply doesn't function properly.

The fact of the matter is your choices are:

1. Roll and get Grand Melee/Ruthless Precision/2 Buffs - Keep it and DPS
2. Roll, get anything outside of what was stated above - roll again

That is flat out the optimal way to play the spec. Problem with that is some buff combinations don't exactly -Feel- powerful or impacting. Rolling and getting True Bearing + Buried Treasure doesn't feel good. What feels even worse is a situation where you have to spend the first 20-30 seconds of a pull re-rolling because you keep getting solo True Bearing or Buried treasure. Personally, while the high of getting a 5 buff roll is definitely one of the most enjoyable feelings in WoW, I don't think that'd be diminished if they made combo rolls/specific combinations more likely. Having to re-roll more than 2 times, 3 times at maximum feels horrible, but as long as it stays completely RNG that's unavoidable at times. I'd definitely like to see some sort of change otherwise I'll be swapping to SnD if it's ever stronger/even with RtB.

[Xahz]

SnD should not be a talent, it hugely disadvantages players who don't like rtb. They should be two baseline abilities for the player to choose between, although the idea of giving players a choice of playstyles probably gives blizzard nightmares.

What the hell do you think talents are for?

Also, Outlaw without RtB is probably the most braindead, boring spec in the game - it's literally a two button rotation with one proc and one maintenance buff. As far as I'm concerned picking SnD should gimp you since you're opting into removing the only skill/random element the spec has.

[Sephiroso]

Where did i say anything about outlaw not being strong right now?

Not so much in those words but you're clearly whining about RTB thinking it's just as shit as it was in Legion when it isn't.

[Lex Icon]

Here to chime in on the argument about RtB being engaging and fun.

It's all subjective but I'd love to see a poll with a large sample size to see who actually enjoys it. Personally, I love RtB and I like, conceptually, the different buffs and how they can affect your playstyle but I feel like in the current state that simply doesn't function properly.

The fact of the matter is your choices are:

1. Roll and get Grand Melee/Ruthless Precision/2 Buffs - Keep it and DPS
2. Roll, get anything outside of what was stated above - roll again

That is flat out the optimal way to play the spec. Problem with that is some buff combinations don't exactly -Feel- powerful or impacting. Rolling and getting True Bearing + Buried Treasure doesn't feel good. What feels even worse is a situation where you have to spend the first 20-30 seconds of a pull re-rolling because you keep getting solo True Bearing or Buried treasure. Personally, while the high of getting a 5 buff roll is definitely one of the most enjoyable feelings in WoW, I don't think that'd be diminished if they made combo rolls/specific combinations more likely. Having to re-roll more than 2 times, 3 times at maximum feels horrible, but as long as it stays completely RNG that's unavoidable at times. I'd definitely like to see some sort of change otherwise I'll be swapping to SnD if it's ever stronger/even with RtB.

most people are probably in the "eh" camp meaning they don't love it or hate it. everyone should be used to RNG by now so them making specs revolve around it should come to no surprise.

[Mafic]

RTB is not interactive..... you just press the same button 5 cp later because you didn't roll well. If there was a meter that popped up with like red, blue and green zones and red was a 1 buff, blue a 2, and green a 3 buff then that would be interactive and reward a skilled player. The argument that it is interactive and you have to adapt to your buff is a load of crap. RTB was fine in legion beta and then they nerfed it to shit. RTB was terrible all the way to Antorus and then in Antorus SND was better. The outlaw discord was ran by someone for all of legion that hated snd and that why snd is a meme there.

RTB stopped being interactive when they nerfed all the rolls to the ground to be honest.

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Right, i'm the subpar player when you're the one complaining about Outlaw despite it being very strong right now and not at all comparable to how it was in legion numbers wise.

RTB at the start of the Legion was better than the current dumpster fire now. Now you fish for GM and/or Ruthless Precision which is the definition of brain dead game play.

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What the hell do you think talents are for?

Also, Outlaw without RtB is probably the most braindead, boring spec in the game - it's literally a two button rotation with one proc and one maintenance buff. As far as I'm concerned picking SnD should gimp you since you're opting into removing the only skill/random element the spec has.

Well that would force the devs to make Sub and Outlaw more interesting than the current brain dead specs that they are.

[Sephiroso]

So much whining about an ability that still lets you put out decent numbers unlike last expansion. People will literally whine about anything these days. I don't like the randomness of it either, but we're still ridiculously strong and aren't dependant on 5 rolls to do good damage like we used to be.

[shaunika123]

So much whining about an ability that still lets you put out decent numbers unlike last expansion. People will literally whine about anything these days. I don't like the randomness of it either, but we're still ridiculously strong and aren't dependant on 5 rolls to do good damage like we used to be.

just wait till heroic week when both sub and outlaw get the stick

[Varolyn]

I think it's funny that people are saying that outlaw is somehow "braindead" compared to what it was in the past. SnD was/is a very boring finisher, and no, swapping to revealing strike to hold off on proccing red insight is not depth, it's unintended gameplay and is literally just swapping your spammy filler to another spammy filler. If anything outlaw has more depth than what it has had in the past with pistol shot procs or using BtE to set up deadshot.

[shaunika123]

I think it's funny that people are saying that outlaw is somehow "braindead" compared to what it was in the past. SnD was/is a very boring finisher, and no, swapping to revealing strike to hold off on proccing red insight is not depth, it's unintended gameplay and is literally just swapping your spammy filler to another spammy filler. If anything outlaw has more depth than what it has had in the past with pistol shot procs or using BtE to set up deadshot.

they're in denial. outlaw has way more depth than combat ever did(then again combat always had the depth of a small puddle, but still)

they can be frustrated with RTB and rightfully so (even though I do like RTB a lot personally), but calling it more braindead than combat is just delusional

[Mafic]

I think it's funny that people are saying that outlaw is somehow "braindead" compared to what it was in the past. SnD was/is a very boring finisher, and no, swapping to revealing strike to hold off on proccing red insight is not depth, it's unintended gameplay and is literally just swapping your spammy filler to another spammy filler. If anything outlaw has more depth than what it has had in the past with pistol shot procs or using BtE to set up deadshot.

Unintended game play and nuances is what defines and makes Rogues fun.

BFA Outlaw is more brain dead than Legion Outlaw and I am surprised people are clutching their pearls when it is pointed out. Whatever depth Outlaw had it lost going from Legion ----> BFA with another round of pruning. Same thing happened to Sub going from Legion----> BFA.

• BFA rolls from RTB are nerfed and neutered down versions of Legion rolls of RTB at the start of Legion.
• Pistol shot procs in BFA which are nerfed compared to Pistol Procs/Blunderbuss of Legion.
• Dispatch in BFA is just a finisher while in Legion Run Through actually had Greed Procs
• Loaded Dice was baseline and could be used when needed most by putting control into players hand's instead of RNG

.

I could go on and on but the bottom line is that BFA Outlaw is an inferior version of Legion Outlaw in most ways.

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they're in denial. outlaw has way more depth than combat ever did(then again combat always had the depth of a small puddle, but still)

they can be frustrated with RTB and rightfully so (even though I do like RTB a lot personally), but calling it more braindead than combat is just delusional

The denial is clearly with PVE players that think pruning half of finishers from Rogues, poisons, additional utility and then on top introducing a finisher that generate large variance in game play experience and performance.

So are you going to advocate for the snake eyes build if it sims the best or argue it is not intended because RTB is "intended" game play?

[shaunika123]

Unintended game play and nuances is what defines and makes Rogues fun.

BFA Outlaw is more brain dead than Legion Outlaw and I am surprised people are clutching their pearls when it is pointed out. Whatever depth Outlaw had it lost going from Legion ----> BFA with another round of pruning. Same thing happened to Sub going from Legion----> BFA.

• BFA rolls from RTB are nerfed and neutered down versions of Legion rolls of RTB at the start of Legion.
• Pistol shot procs in BFA which are nerfed compared to Pistol Procs/Blunderbuss of Legion.
• Dispatch in BFA is just a finisher while in Legion Run Through actually had Greed Procs
• Loaded Dice was baseline and could be used when needed most by putting control into players hand's instead of RNG

.

I could go on and on but the bottom line is that BFA Outlaw is an inferior version of Legion Outlaw in most ways.

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The denial is clearly with PVE players that think pruning half of finishers from Rogues, poisons, additional utility and then on top introducing a finisher that generate large variance in game play experience and performance.

So are you going to advocate for the snake eyes build if it sims the best or argue it is not intended because RTB is "intended" game play?

why the fuck would I or anyone advocate for that abomination lol....

and pruning has nothing to do with this

you use more abilities actively in your PVE(IMPORTANT DISTINCTION) rotation, than you did before
it was literally SS evis like 85% of the time with occasionally refreshing revealing strike and maintaining SND

RTB rerolls, PS procs and BTE and blade rush being part of the rotation makes it a lot more dynamic and engaging.

poisons are just a passive dmg proc that added nothing to the spec ever since they pruned them like 8 years ago

as for the whole "legion vs bfa thing"

loaded dice made the spec more brainless, since all you did was roll for 2 buffs EVERY SINGLE TIME thanks to cof, it made rtb basically pointless since it became just another "maintain every 40 seconds" buff

greed was fun but ultimately it was just another passive proc and didnt affect in ANY way how you played.

I'll give you blunderbuss, but even that only mattered cos of greenskins

dont compare it to sub, sub literally lost THE ability that made it into an engaging spec, outlaw didnt lose anything substantial and RTB got massively improved and it got better azerite traits and talents

the rolls might be weaker, but they're also closer to each other, in legion it was "TB or die" for a very long time
now every 2nd roll on average is something you keep.

plus they made them better in a lot of ways, the crit roll for example is much more interesting since it interacts with BTE now etc.


of course pruning a ton of the rogue toolkit was bad
but that's not an outlaw vs combat problem
that's an old wow vs new wow problem.

[Zyky]

Imagine talent like this:

your Roll the Bones now always rolls at least 2 buffs, but it's now on CD for the same duration as the buffs.
1 point : 12 seconds cd
2 points: 18 seconds cd
3 points: 24 seconds cd
4 points: 30 seconds cd
5 points: 36 seconds cd
6 points: 42 seconds cd

basically you cannot reroll, whatever you have - that's it.
could replace slice and dice talent :P

TBH just make it a 45 sec duration and a 45 sec cd and require 5 combo points to even use, make it always roll 2 buff with a small chance to roll more.

[Deleted]

I play Outlaw as main this expansion, Slice and Dice all the way. The advantage of raiding non-mythic, you can play however you want

[Tokas]

TBH just make it a 45 sec duration and a 45 sec cd and require 5 combo points to even use, make it always roll 2 buff with a small chance to roll more.

well or that, yes

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I play Outlaw as main this expansion, Slice and Dice all the way. The advantage of raiding non-mythic, you can play however you want

I wonder how much less dps it does tho?
Still waiting for non-biased comparison.