Current state of DK's (UH/Frost)

[Galathir]

Well if DK doesn't have the highest burst AoE dps in the game then the class must be unplayable garbage. We all know the entire game revolves around 10 second fights against mid sized groups of mobs when all cooldowns are available. It is utterly unacceptable that our class not be incredibly strong in this highly specific scenario which was cherry picked to make the class look bad!

This "highly specific scenario" is a big part of Mythic+ and you make it sound as if we had stronger single target damage and outclassed others in boss fights to compensate which we don't.

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Agreed, with UH I have been sitting on top of the meters throughout mythics.

I doubt that. Best I managed in Unholy so far was around 20k peak aoe dps. I have seen several other classes pull either this much dps consistently on every aoe pack or 2-3 times as much in certain situations.

[Sulika]

This "highly specific scenario" is a big part of Mythic+ and you make it sound as if we had stronger single target damage and outclassed others in boss fights to compensate which we don't.

Blowing all cooldowns on a low health trash pack is not a common scenario in any sort of meaningful content.

[Galathir]

Blowing all cooldowns on a low health trash pack is not a common scenario in any sort of meaningful content.

First: If you are playing Mythic+, especially in "Fortified" weeks, without using any cooldowns on trash you are doing it wrong.
Second: As I also stated even without any cooldowns several classes (rogues, dhs, warris, occasionally hunters, apparently Frost mages, I can't remember being grouped up with one of those however) completely destroy us in aoe and are at worst on par with us in st.

I can hardly believe Blizzard even nerfed Unholy towards the end of beta...

[Sulika]

First: If you are playing Mythic+, especially in "Fortified" weeks, without using any cooldowns on trash you are doing it wrong.
Second: As I also stated even without any cooldowns several classes (rogues, dhs, warris, occasionally hunters, apparently Frost mages, I can't remember being grouped up with one of those however) completely destroy us in aoe and are at worst on par with us in st.

I can hardly believe Blizzard even nerfed Unholy towards the end of beta...

Would you classify fortified mythic+ trash packs as being low health?

[Galathir]

Would you classify fortified mythic+ trash packs as being low health?

Neither more nor less than current Mythic trash is at appropriate gear levels.

[Sulika]

Neither more nor less than current Mythic trash is at appropriate gear levels.

Let me be even more specific then so you have less wiggle room to dodge the question. When I referred to "low health trash", did you think I was referring to fortified mythic trash, and if not, why did you answer as if I was?

[Galathir]

Let me be even more specific then so you have less wiggle room to dodge the question. When I referred to "low health trash", did you think I was referring to fortified mythic trash, and if not, why did you answer as if I was?

Then please explain what you refer to as "low health trash" in current Mythic context. There's pretty much two kinds of mobs I have seen. Small packs that die withing 3-4 seconds of aoe and bigger mobs that take around 10-15 seconds to kill.

If you are referring to the first then I have never seen anyone pop cooldowns on those. Should you refer to the second kind then that is indeed comparable to fortified M+ trash. This is the kind of mobs I was talking about.

P.s. and there is no reason for me to guess what you think. If you use unclear terminology without references you should explain and clarify and not play "Guess what I mean".

[Acidbaron]

Numbers have yet to be tweaked fully and will be a work in progress for a while. Look more at class utility and fun. If you dislike many buttons to do high speed DMG best to look at another class.

[Sulika]

Then please explain what you refer to as "low health trash" in current Mythic context. There's pretty much two kinds of mobs I have seen. Small packs that die withing 3-4 seconds of aoe and bigger mobs that take around 10-15 seconds to kill.

To use the words from the first post of mine you replied to: "[Trash that dies in] 10 second fights against mid sized groups of mobs when all cooldowns are available".

I was very specific, because my whole point was that you can't use numbers that only really matter in that sort of highly constrained situation as a meaningful benchmark for balance comparions. Right now, we have very little content and the content we have is quite easy, that skews things a lot and the guy I was replying to was claiming a figure of Arms warriors bursting 50-60k AoE dps as if it was somehow a meaningful figure when it comes to balance. To do that is as silly as it would have been to take the damage legion Unholy DKs could do in the first 40 seconds of a fight and then complain that some other class with other strengths couldn't burst that high. It would be a completely cherry picked and therefore meaningless comparison.

[Galathir]

To use the words from the first post of mine you replied to: "[Trash that dies in] 10 second fights against mid sized groups of mobs when all cooldowns are available".

Then to answer your question: Yes, I think this trash is comparable to fortified M+ trash unless you run +25 or something like that.

P.s. Tell us Unholy's strengths. I already went into that above:

As I also stated even without any cooldowns several classes (rogues, dhs, warris, occasionally hunters, apparently Frost mages, I can't remember being grouped up with one of those however) completely destroy us in aoe and are at worst on par with us in st.

Unholy's only strength is that you can go to the toilet or get a coffee while waiting till you can press a skill again because you're resource starved for so long.

[Sulika]

Unholy's only strength is that you can go to the toilet or get a coffee while waiting till you can press a skill again because you're resource starved for so long.

I actually wasn't saying anything about the state of Unholy, I was just saying that comparing it to another specs strongest moment is a meaningless comparison.

If you're wondering though my own experience with it is that it's fine. It's strength is really that it is so consistent. You can do the same numbers fight after fight after fight. They're never going to skyrocket because of cooldowns but equally it will never drop off because it has nothing left. It plays well, AoE is a lot smoother than it was. Numbers wise it feels fine, I'm not leaving other specs in the dust but nor do I find myself falling behind and when I do it is usually because I made a mistake (using up all my runes when Virulent Plague is expiring or something like that). It is definitely slower than it was which kind of sucks but I'm happy to put that down to relatively poor gear we have right now, but that just makes planning ahead more important. I like Epidemic, I like the Soul Reaper changes, I like Death Pact, I hate needing 30 runic power to combat res, I dislike Death Grip being on the GCD as it makes it really awkward to use it as an interrupt / ghetto stun, I'm not a big fan of Unholy Frenzy as it is now, it just feels like a fairly lackluster cooldown, I miss having Gargoyle baseline.

Overall I think it's in a pretty good place. The changes I like more than dislike. The numbers are there or thereabouts and other than being a bit slow it plays just fine.

[Deleted]

i realy do not feel the starvation of resoruces. Now with UF and SR i might get in a 2 - 3 second window of starvation in a 3-4 minute fight. you just need to weave SR and DC's correctly

[Factcheck]

I doubt that. Best I managed in Unholy so far was around 20k peak aoe dps. I have seen several other classes pull either this much dps consistently on every aoe pack or 2-3 times as much in certain situations.

Have you considered we might have done mythics with different group compositions and that it is quite rude to just blindly dismiss someones personal experiences just because you personally have not seen it yourself?

[Galathir]

Have you considered we might have done mythics with different group compositions and that it is quite rude to just blindly dismiss someones personal experiences just because you personally have not seen it yourself?

You were making a general point about the state of the specc, "Unholy is fine because I top meters". I disputed this point saying that other speccs do several times our damage in certain situations. That has nothing to do with me being rude.

So please, if you want to prove your point, provide evidence. A screenshot of your damagemeter with you pulling ~40-60k dps in a dungeon for example.

[Awfulist]

Welcome to the class: When we preform fine in Pve, we get no buffs for survivability.

[slime]

Is blood actually that good? I haven't tanked on a blood dk since cata, but decided to revisit it this time because i'm fucking sick of queues and unholy feels clunky as shit, and it only feels okayish to me. Death Strike healing seems low, and runic power generation seems slow. The second point will probably get better with more haste, but death strike still feels a lot weaker than it used to be.

you won't be a dps machine, but you won't take damage either. I normally pull all mobs in an area 6-8 mobs and aoe them down - w/o any danger of dying.

[Factcheck]

You were making a general point about the state of the specc, "Unholy is fine because I top meters". I disputed this point saying that other speccs do several times our damage in certain situations. That has nothing to do with me being rude.

So please, if you want to prove your point, provide evidence. A screenshot of your damagemeter with you pulling ~40-60k dps in a dungeon for example.

Now you're just inserting your own argument into the discussion to be combative, rude and a generally unpleasant person. I was agreeing with someone else that Unholy is fun and seems to be doing well from my personal experience of topping meters in the groups that I have run.

[Galathir]

Now you're just inserting your own argument into the discussion to be combative, rude and a generally unpleasant person. I was agreeing with someone else that Unholy is fun and seems to be doing well from my personal experience of topping meters in the groups that I have run.

Would you please stop the ad hominems and dispute my arguments? You say Unholy does well when compared with other classes. Provide evidence.

[Factcheck]

Would you please stop the ad hominems and dispute my arguments? Provide evidence.

Ad hominem only applies when someone exclusively attacks your character and not the argument.

You're an idiot.
That's an ad hominem. Thank you and good bye.

[Deleted]

Would you please stop the ad hominems and dispute my arguments? You say Unholy does well when compared with other classes. Provide evidence.

Have you actually done mythics so far? Because you have no evidence for unholy being shit-tier either.