I don't really want lfr to be released...

[Coffer]

This is me as well. I've been with the game for a number of years and for the last two expansions I've been much happier being able to say "I don't want to play tonight" or even "I don't want to play this week, I've got a book I'd rather read". Concurrent with that there are times when I have logged on that I was more in the mood to either play alone or with a couple of friends.

Those that like that are fine and I hope they enjoy organized raiding as much as I did during WotLK and Tier 11 of Cataclysm. But it's not me any longer and I have to wonder if it's even a completely healthy thing to have your week regimented in such a way. But everyone is different and that's fine.

I skipped WoD and Legion and have been pushing decently hard on my own since BfA came out, but once LFR is out this will most likely be my philosophy as well. I see no need to burn myself out pushing myself to play something far beyond the point where I know I'm not enjoying it anymore. I made that mistake with EU4 recently and I don't intend to repeat it with a game that I still see in a very positive light by returning to scheduled, super serious raiding. LFR is great for taking it easy like that, and while I derided it before, I've more than come around to it now that I've properly settled into my current job. I'd be happy to join a guild that can accommodate me even better than that, but LFR is more than satisfactory until then, and I wouldn't want it to disappear just because some people are, reasonably or otherwise, unhappy with how it will affect the gear balance of the overall community.

[rda]

You're wrong about the drop-off. Most LFR people simple don't want to raid in an organized setting for a variety of reasons. Take it away and we simply won't bother. I've done the raiding bit, starting in Kara and mostly ending in MoP. I CAN do scheduled raids. My guild has let me know I'm welcome. But I flat out don't want to commit to spending an entire evening raiding. Sometimes I'd get into that. Sometimes I get to that evening and just don't want to.

This is me as well. I've been with the game for a number of years and for the last two expansions I've been much happier being able to say "I don't want to play tonight" or even "I don't want to play this week, I've got a book I'd rather read". Concurrent with that there are times when I have logged on that I was more in the mood to either play alone or with a couple of friends.

Same here.

I plain don't care enough about anything in WoW (or in games in general) to be organizing my time around it. If something has an automatic queue, I'll do it. If something does not have an automatic queue, I won't do it. It's not a question of the difficulty. If mythic+ was on queue with minimum gear requirements, I'd be climbing it, gearing up / perfecting pulls / etc. It's just a question of there being an automatic queue.

[Zigrifid]

I want LFR to be released so my 4 enchanters can run through it and DE the items for material and AHing :v

[Mr chub]

Same here.

I plain don't care enough about anything in WoW (or in games in general) to be organizing my time around it. If something has an automatic queue, I'll do it. If something does not have an automatic queue, I won't do it. It's not a question of the difficulty. If mythic+ was on queue with minimum gear requirements, I'd be climbing it, gearing up / perfecting pulls / etc. It's just a question of there being an automatic queue.

Do you think it's possible you simply outgrew mmo's and rather then move on you demanded the game be shaped into something it was never intended to be to satisfy yourself rather then let new players enjoy it?

[Coffer]

Do you think it's possible you simply outgrew mmo's and rather then move on you demanded the game be shaped into something it was never intended to be to satisfy yourself rather then let new players enjoy it?

I'm torn between calling this a good point and pointing out the irony in it.

[rda]

Do you think it's possible you simply outgrew mmo's and rather then move on you demanded the game be shaped into something it was never intended to be to satisfy yourself rather then let new players enjoy it?

There is no such thing as "this game has to be such and such", games morph.

I have an idea of what kind of things I like and I am going to tell what I want done in the game that I am paying for. Simples.

[Mr chub]

There is no such thing as "this game has to be such and such", games morph.

Not many do... it is something that I don't think a lot of people consider. Wow has changed drastically and its changed from a greater emphasis on farming rather then skill. That is fine if you enjoy it but it must be kept in mind that when you change the game to cater to a different crowd you move away from the original one. I think that is where the divide started. People who have grow to expect a highly rewarding spectator mode similar to a story game and those who wish to return to a game where there is a decent chance of failure and success is earned by playing well and as part of a group.

[crusadernero]

Dunno why we even have LFR and mythic. It should be normal & Heroic. Less time spendt on tuning 4 modes on raiding, more time to create bigger/more raids each tier and content outside of raids.

Tune normal like it is now and maybe buff HC a bit.

Im saying this as someone who has been, and are, without a raiding guild for several years and done pugs or just didnt bother raiding.

[Coffer]

Not many do... it is something that I don't think a lot of people consider. Wow has changed drastically and its changed from a greater emphasis on farming rather then skill. That is fine if you enjoy it but it must be kept in mind that when you change the game to cater to a different crowd you move away from the original one. I think that is where the divide started. People who have grow to expect a highly rewarding spectator mode similar to a story game and those who wish to return to a game where there is a decent chance of failure and success is earned by playing well and as part of a group.

On the contrary, most do. It's just that the transition is usually gradual (for obvious reasons), so a lot of people won't notice it until a significant amount of time has passed.

And how is "returning" to a past iteration not in itself a change? Especially in WoW's case, now that so much time has passed that few people who were playing back in Vanilla, BC etc are still playing anymore, making those who are happy with the current options given by the game the norm rather than the exception. The way you're wording the two categories that make up the divide denotes a strong bias towards the latter too, which further taints your point.

[Kanegasi]

Why do people have so much of a problem with LFR? I can’t think of a single objective reason.

Obligation to run it: subjective, your own decision

Messes up gear hierarchy: subjective, toxic (don’t-want-non-raiders-to-have-gear mentality)

Detrimental to game: subjective, no one has an actual explanation for this

LFR was expected even before it was heard of. The content difficulty curve was eventually going to be smoothed out. Instead of the sharp incline of old, we have several difficulties of instances that anyone can be comfortable with.

[Coffer]

Messes up gear hierarchy: subjective, toxic (don’t-want-non-raiders-to-have-gear mentality)

I think it goes a bit beyond simple toxicity. With WoW being a social game, you'll always interact with people, at least when doing most things that pertain to acquiring better gear. This extends to pug runs. Things like LFR, or anything that allows for obtaining gear in an easier fashion than any previous equivalents of similar power levels, make it so that gear itself can no longer be (as accurately as before, at least) used to judge whether someone you're either already in a group with or are considering grouping up with (for, say, a Mythic+ run) has the skill needed to perform to your standards, which people will attempt to counteract by raising the minimum gear cap when leading future groups.

That's about the only reasonable argument I can personally think of though, and it's not exactly a strong one.

[Mr chub]

On the contrary, most do. It's just that the transition is usually gradual (for obvious reasons), so a lot of people won't notice it until a significant amount of time has passed.

And how is "returning" to a past iteration not in itself a change? Especially in WoW's case, now that so much time has passed that few people who were playing back in Vanilla, BC etc are still playing anymore, making those who are happy with the current options given by the game the norm rather than the exception. The way you're wording the two categories that make up the divide denotes a strong bias towards the latter too, which further taints your point.

A different point of view isn't "tainted" that being said you do have a point. It is very possible that the old crowd the one that built up wow for the most part are gone. I don't know if that is a good thing or if the new crowd is better but what used to be has changed. I miss the old progression system the long climb and careful selective farming more then the grindfest of current wow. That said there is still enough of what I enjoy to stay.

[Coffer]

A different point of view isn't "tainted" that being said you do have a point. It is very possible that the old crowd the one that built up wow for the most part are gone. I don't know if that is a good thing or if the new crowd is better but what used to be has changed. I miss the old progression system the long climb and careful selective farming more then the grindfest of current wow. That said there is still enough of what I enjoy to stay.

There's no such thing as a "better" or "worse" crowd. I myself have fallen into the same trap many times before through my own biases (cough British and Dutch F1 fanbases cough), but at the end of the day it's just whichever community you identify best with, and which community you feel suits what you feel the product should be like, both of which are subjective.

As for what you miss, you should still be able to get most of that through raiding. It just means the buildup to it will get simpler in time to allow more people to experience that and determine whether it is for them and how far they are willing to go. I think it's completely fine the way it is precisely because of that, regardless of the potential shortcomings I mentioned in an earlier post. Naturally, different people are going to be okay with it on different levels (less or more), but that's natural with a game that's ~18 years old which has evolved way past its starting point. If you're still happy enough with how things are to continue playing, then it's ultimately up to you to make the most of it. If not, there are other options out there. That's just how it is. Whether things are going to change further and to which extent that will happen is anybody's guess.

[ebah]

I'd say go with the older raidtypes with the following order:
1. Ulduar type hardmodes being the harder content.
2. Normal/Heroic.
3. Only one difficulty.

LFR+Normal+Heroic+Mythic is just way too much same raid with different diffuculties rehashing the current content....

[Soxoffender]

Of course becuase you more or less have to do it. That does not make it fun however.

Who is this true for? By the time LFR has been fully released Normal and above raiding and M+ will be in full swing and give much better gear. You can already get 340 gear from M0 and my backwater server's AH is swimming with BOE and crafted 350 items.

38% of respondents to this poll are saying that they're already at 340 https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...7#post49995717 Unless there's some Unstable Arcanocrystal style OP trinket there's already nothing those people are going to want from a single LFR boss.

There aren't even set bonuses or a chance at a legendary anymore to make it something that people still progressing Normal raids or above will be interested in. LFR has never been less appealing from a gearing perspective and I honestly don't understand who these players are that feel "you more or less have to do it" if they don't want to.

I mean, even blizzard recogises that LFR cheapens their raids, wich is why they stagger it's release.

Counterpoint - the staggering is a sop to those who like to complain about LFR and it doesn't tell us anything about what Blizzard employees actually think of it.

[Aggrophobic]

Who is this true for? By the time LFR has been fully released Normal and above raiding and M+ will be in full swing and give much better gear. You can already get 340 gear from M0 and my backwater server's AH is swimming with BOE and crafted 350 items.

38% of respondents to this poll are saying that they're already at 340 https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...7#post49995717 Unless there's some Unstable Arcanocrystal style OP trinket there's already nothing those people are going to want from a single LFR boss.

There aren't even set bonuses or a chance at a legendary anymore to make it something that people still progressing Normal raids or above will be interested in. LFR has never been less appealing from a gearing perspective and I honestly don't understand who these players are that feel "you more or less have to do it" if they don't want to.


Counterpoint - the staggering is a sop to those who like to complain about LFR and it doesn't tell us anything about what Blizzard employees actually think of it.

There is still the chance of getting war/titanforged gear and as some traits are worth far, far more than ilvl and getting them is random you will need to farm every source for them if you're unlucky.

[SirBeef]

Counterpoint - the staggering is a sop to those who like to complain about LFR and it doesn't tell us anything about what Blizzard employees actually think of it.

Staggering is done for two reasons so casual players have something to look forward to and so heroic/mythic raiders are not "compelled" to run LFR for gear.

[xpose]

Messes up gear hierarchy: subjective, toxic (don’t-want-non-raiders-to-have-gear mentality)

Item level would actually carry some weight if gear hierarchy existed and thats not a bad thing.

- - - Updated - - -

Imagine going to work everyday and you get a nice bonus for completing tasks based on the difficulty with a small shot at getting a huge bonus!

Now imagine the intern walks in with the lowest skill level in the company and does the bare minimum and BOOM Hits that nice massive jackpot. Do you not see how this would irritate people that are having to put in considerable more work only to have the intern hit a bigger payday?

[Soxoffender]

There is still the chance of getting war/titanforged gear and as some traits are worth far, far more than ilvl and getting them is random you will need to farm every source for them if you're unlucky.

Ok but by that measure everyone is also going to have to run Heroic Dungeons, M0 and clear every gear-WQ too since those also have a chance to proc titanforged items. The time investment for facerolling through these is going to be less per boss than queuing and running LFR, so why is LFR the problem? If you're any good then you're going to be pushing high M+ keys and/or clearing Heroic and Mythic raids by the time all the LFR wings have been opened, so you'll have had 2-3 weeks of picking up 370-385 base-level items. You're going to need a lot of super-high titanforges from LFR to compete with that. On the Azerite front, Blizz have already begun nerfing the OP traits which will hopefully close the gap a bit but are there combinations that are exclusive to LFR or do they drop in other difficulties/different locations? I genuinely don't know the answer to that one and I'd definitely agree it's bad design if there's a 340 LFR headpiece with an exclusive combination of traits that out-performs the equivalent 355 Normal one.

Honestly, unless it's your end game then the incentives to bother with it have never been lower. Right now, unless Blizzard tag on some ludicrous Azerite gain from LFR bosses/wings then I fully expect to run it once and otherwise stick to M+.

Staggering is done for two reasons so casual players have something to look forward to and so heroic/mythic raiders are not "compelled" to run LFR for gear.

Have Blizzard definitely confirmed this because some Heroic/Mythic raiders were running LFR in Legion as a result of the additional chance at legendaries and they did very little to address that and just let it it solve itself when people capped out on them.

[Deleted]

Item level would actually carry some weight if gear hierarchy existed and thats not a bad thing.

- - - Updated - - -

Imagine going to work everyday and you get a nice bonus for completing tasks based on the difficulty with a small shot at getting a huge bonus!

Now imagine the intern walks in with the lowest skill level in the company and does the bare minimum and BOOM Hits that nice massive jackpot. Do you not see how this would irritate people that are having to put in considerable more work only to have the intern hit a bigger payday?

Comparing WoW to a job sounds unhealthy, are you ok?