Best/Worst Tanks?

[kooz]

I forgot to mention that I pugged motherlode with a brew of ilvl 300 last week, so far it was the best pugged tank I came across in mythics.

[Saverem]

You don't understand the word mitigation if you think that is a strong point of Brewmaster. Their mitigation is the worst of any tanks, and shows why that term is so worthless to begin with and thrown around by people who don't understand what it means.

I'm sorry you're still running last resort in 2018 and think VDH has no CDs tho...

Go tell that to Shakib who runs Last Resort in 2018. I'm sure he'll love to get some random guy on MMO-C's input on how to play a top tier VDH.


And no tank can soak damage as well as a BrM, call it whatever semantic you kids want these days, they know how to take a beating.

- - - Updated - - -

BrMs have good mitigation?

mit·i·ga·tion
ˌmidəˈɡāSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.


Maybe "mitigation" means something else in Norway. But in FREEDOMLAND, you know, where the game was made, it means that. And yes, BrMs are THE BEST at it. They may take more damage overall, but they mitigate it the best.

[Krawu]

As a healer I completely dislike Blood DKs. Their self healing is enormous but their massive HP drops within half a second give me little heart attacks every time. I very much like Druids and Paladins though, seem to be able to deal with high damage the best.

Our guild was doing some Mythics recently with the newest undergeared alts, and our 290 Healer was having a similar problem. Eventually he gave up on trying to heal me to full at all and simply kept me around 50-60% health, letting Will of the Necropolis and Vampiric Blood work for him. And now that the DK has some gear it's not even a problem at all any more.

[Simulacrum]

Maybe "mitigation" means something else in Norway. But in FREEDOMLAND, you know, where the game was made, it means that. And yes, BrMs are THE BEST at it. They may take more damage overall, but they mitigate it the best.

Let me help you out there. What you're trying to say - without admitting that you were wrong - is, BrMs have the worst mitigation.

Only thing they're good at is not getting oneshot. Which is nice for the highest-tier content, mostly because it makes your healers feel better, but garbage everywhere else.

[Saverem]

Let me help you out there. What you're trying to say - without admitting that you were wrong - is, BrMs have the worst mitigation.

Only thing they're good at is not getting oneshot. Which is nice for the highest-tier content, mostly because it makes your healers feel better, but garbage everywhere else.

WRONG. They are the best at mitigation. Their entire mechanic revolves around mitigating damage and turning it into an easily handled dot. It's why they have the worst self healing of all the tanks and yet are still at the top.

You're the one thinking one dimensionaly about how damage is mitigated.

[Simulacrum]

WRONG. They are the best at mitigation. Their entire mechanic revolves around mitigating damage and turning it into an easily handled dot. It's why they have the worst self healing of all the tanks and yet are still at the top.

You're the one thinking one dimensionaly about how damage is mitigated.

So... you've redefined not mitigation damage into mitigating damage, as a clumsy rhetorical trick?

Hopefully, nobody buys into this pathetic, desperate attempt at persuasion. About the only compelling part of it is the shamelessness with which you espouse it, which suggests to an ignorant observer that you're right because why else would you do something so shameful? And pathetic? Now you should understand why people who predict the end of the world wake up the day after they predicted the world would end to say that this actually means they were right all along. They've dug themselves so far down they have no choice but to keep going.

Don't be that guy. Face reality. You can do it. I have faith in you.

Heh, just kidding, I've seen your posts in the monk subforum.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

So... you've redefined not mitigation damage into mitigating damage, as a clumsy rhetorical trick?

Hopefully, nobody buys into this pathetic, desperate attempt at persuasion. About the only compelling part of it is the shamelessness with which you espouse it, which suggests to an ignorant observer that you're right because why else would you do something so shameful? And pathetic? Now you should understand why people who predict the end of the world wake up the day after they predicted the world would end to say that this actually means they were right all along. They've dug themselves so far down they have no choice but to keep going.

Don't be that guy. Face reality. You can do it. I have faith in you.

Heh, just kidding, I've seen your posts in the monk subforum.

Sounds like you are stuck on a very limited idea of mitigation? As in only applying that term to damage reduction? ISB is BrM's active mitigation. It checks the box for boss abilities that depend on whether AM is up. Just because staggered damage could eventually affect you, does not mean the damage is not mitigated when staggered. The damage is made less dangerous, both by being delayed and by being smoothed. Both effects reduce "the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something". And a good BrM will purify when stagger is high enough, so a good bit of that damage does go away.

Saverem and I don't agree on everything, but he's right on this one. I'll go a step further and say BrM has one of the best AM toolkits because our AM is up 100% of the time. It's not even hard keeping ISB up 100%. Which means, unlike VDH, we almost never get caught off guard. There are legitimate reasons BrM has been rated #1 progression raid tank by almost every expert going into BfA, including Sco, who has main tanked almost every WF mythic clear for years now, and Preach, who has been tanking and clearing mythic* raids since Vanilla.

*or whatever the highest difficulty was at the time, you know what I mean.

[Tech614]

Sounds like you are stuck on a very limited idea of mitigation? As in only applying that term to damage reduction? ISB is BrM's active mitigation. It checks the box for boss abilities that depend on whether AM is up. Just because staggered damage could eventually affect you, does not mean the damage is not mitigated when staggered. The damage is made less dangerous, both by being delayed and by being smoothed. Both effects reduce "the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something". And a good BrM will purify when stagger is high enough, so a good bit of that damage does go away.

Saverem and I don't agree on everything, but he's right on this one. I'll go a step further and say BrM has one of the best AM toolkits because our AM is up 100% of the time. It's not even hard keeping ISB up 100%. Which means, unlike VDH, we almost never get caught off guard. There are legitimate reasons BrM has been rated #1 progression raid tank by almost every expert going into BfA.

Using the argument that someone's mitigation is based on an AM boss check is quite laughable since for BDK that is literally a buff called "Recently used Death Strike". That buff that does nothing other then meet AM checks is quite the mitigation lmfao.

Purify is a brewmasters mitigation. ISB only smooths out damage, it doesn't mitigate any of it. That is a literal fact. It just go's to show how Saverem and others fall into a trap of hearing something said and think it's true. Brewmasters are not good because they mitigate damage well, they are good because they smooth burst damage out. In terms of actual mitigation Wars and Pals especially mitigate way more damage then a brewmaster but Prot War is not that great right now which go's to show making a blanket statement like "lol better mitigation" means jack shit in the game.

It's the same reason he can't tell anyone why Last Resort is good he just says "lol Shakib uses it method player btw" without even trying to understand why Shakib is using it. He doesn't understand the tank classes and is trying to talk about them like he does.

[Ifeanychukwu]

Let me help you out there. What you're trying to say - without admitting that you were wrong - is, BrMs have the worst mitigation.

Only thing they're good at is not getting oneshot. Which is nice for the highest-tier content, mostly because it makes your healers feel better, but garbage everywhere else.

Yeah I'm with Sav here. Not only do monks delay the damage they take they can also purify their stagger to reduce the dot. Good BRMs know how to use both fortifying and purifying brews to keep their damage intake nice and smooth. I would rather heal a good BRM than a BDK any day. Stagger isn't all they have, AoE interrupts and mobility for days are major tools in their kit and using everything together is what makes a good BRM.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I play all the tanks, and these guys do too. They aren't always right about everything, but I do like to see what they're thinking because they've accomplished more in-game than I have. So in case you've missed it, here are some thoughts on best/worst tanks going into BfA:

[Rammus]

In your opinion what is the difference from a good BrM and a bad one (excluding general tank expectations)?

Is it more using the their abilities to kite more efficient? Just over better uptime with their brews?

It is a combination of what you said. Managing brews correctly and kiting along with knowing the class well and use all the tools available to them (e.g. detox).
If a BrM knows what he is doing it is easily noticeable to a healer, they hardly need any more healing than the average dps in the group.

[Saverem]

So... you've redefined not mitigation damage into mitigating damage, as a clumsy rhetorical trick?

Hopefully, nobody buys into this pathetic, desperate attempt at persuasion. About the only compelling part of it is the shamelessness with which you espouse it, which suggests to an ignorant observer that you're right because why else would you do something so shameful? And pathetic? Now you should understand why people who predict the end of the world wake up the day after they predicted the world would end to say that this actually means they were right all along. They've dug themselves so far down they have no choice but to keep going.

Don't be that guy. Face reality. You can do it. I have faith in you.

Heh, just kidding, I've seen your posts in the monk subforum.

Bro, I don't know what to tell you. I literally linked you the definition of what mitigation is and you choose to believe whatever the hell your definition is. I'm done with you, you aren't worth the wear I'm putting on my keyboard by typing these replies.

You and trollmaster Tech are the only 2 people here who thinks BrMs aren't good at mitigating. It's NOT good when you find yourself on Tech's side of the argument. It means you've lost. Bow out now and save face.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I think this is just being pedantic.
BrM has exceptional mitigation it is just two-step; you smooth the damage with stagger (which is not mitigation) and then you remove the stagger DoT (which could be called healing but it actually is mitigation and the most significant one available).

It is really just people misunderstanding the word 'mitigation', trying to insist on a limited definition that doesn't match the way it's used in game terms OR the way it's defined in dictionaries. The dictionary definition of mitigation is making the consequences of an event less severe; the game definition (for tanks) of 'active mitigation' is "a single, specific ability that a Tank must use as a counter to specific Boss abilities." Brewmaster's active mitigation is, by Blizz's definition, Ironskin Brew. Ironskin Brew also meets the dictionary definition because it greatly reduces the immediate impact of incoming attacks, thereby reducing the associated risks and giving you and your healer time to cope with them.

Anyone can come along and make up their own definitions for words, but insisting that the rest of us accept those definitions is unreasonable.

[Deleted]

From a resto druid perspective my best to heal DK > Bear > Monk - Pala > DH > Warrior

[Aydinx2]

Worst tank I've pugged with this xpac was a Warrior.
Best tank I know is a Warrior too.

It all depends on the player.

[Acidbaron]

As a blood dk the first week at lowgear I could survive quite a bit. Now geared to 340+ mythic feels easy can compensate for team fuck ups. And heroic well pull the whole room and bonestorm.

Feel little difference now compared to legion only have to use DS smarter that's it.

[Deleted]

From a resto druid perspective my best to heal DK > Bear > Monk - Pala > DH > Warrior

I wonder if you've played with some bad DH tanks as I find I generally feel safest as DH when a Druid is healing me. The very nature of the HOTs works really well alongside the DH's own healing sources.

Monk healers are great too but I suspect they are fairly overpowered right now given I've had several asking me to pull more if I want as they are bored. The problem with this always though is healers quite often don't appreciate that you then have 6 casters spaced over 30 yards all casting constantly and absolutely wrecking the group

In general though you are looking for a tank with good awareness over anything else. There's quite a few bad tanks that don't react to changes to incoming damage and somehow instead think it's up to healer to deal with all the bad stuff on their own.

[Arazen]

It is really just people misunderstanding the word 'mitigation', trying to insist on a limited definition that doesn't match the way it's used in game terms OR the way it's defined in dictionaries. The dictionary definition of mitigation is making the consequences of an event less severe; the game definition (for tanks) of 'active mitigation' is "a single, specific ability that a Tank must use as a counter to specific Boss abilities." Brewmaster's active mitigation is, by Blizz's definition, Ironskin Brew. Ironskin Brew also meets the dictionary definition because it greatly reduces the immediate impact of incoming attacks, thereby reducing the associated risks and giving you and your healer time to cope with them.

Anyone can come along and make up their own definitions for words, but insisting that the rest of us accept those definitions is unreasonable.

Depends on the time you spend fighting. If we are fighting for 3 seconds, Ironskin Brew is mitigation. If we have already been fighting for like 30 seconds, Ironskin Brew is not mitigation, not even by your definition, because the "immediate impact of incoming attacks" may be reduced, but your healers still have to deal with the DoT from the last 10-13 seconds prior to the spike damage occuring, which means they won't notice any difference at all and thus are not "given time to cope" with the damage.

Not sure why you are being so insistent on this, when "correct" language doesn't matter. You should use the definition that everyone else uses lest you risk misunderstandings. Theory is born from praxis and not the other way around.

[Arikus]

So lets say that Ironskin Brew in combination with Purifying Brew is a form of mitigation?
A BRM can get a heavy hit with ISB active and then remove a portion of that generated stagger with PB. The result is that the heavy hit had a much smaller impact on the BRM than without both brews.

Lets say a 200k hit after armor would strike the BRM, with only 80% going into stagger the hit would do 40k damage to him directly and 160k into stagger. Then the BRM immediately uses PB to reduce the stagger to 80k. That'd mean the BRM has avoided 80k damage of that 200k hit with his brews. I'd call this active mitigation.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Depends on the time you spend fighting. If we are fighting for 3 seconds, Ironskin Brew is mitigation. If we have already been fighting for like 30 seconds, Ironskin Brew is not mitigation, not even by your definition, because the "immediate impact of incoming attacks" may be reduced, but your healers still have to deal with the DoT from the last 10-13 seconds prior to the spike damage occuring, which means they won't notice any difference at all and thus are not "given time to cope" with the damage.

Not sure why you are being so insistent on this, when "correct" language doesn't matter. You should use the definition that everyone else uses lest you risk misunderstandings. Theory is born from praxis and not the other way around.

"...which means they won't notice any difference at all and thus are not "given time to cope" with the damage."

Nonsense. Healer will still notice a difference between a regular dot vs spiky damage, and that's only one of the differences. If BrM takes a big hit, most of it goes to stagger, after which...

• They can purify a big chunk of it away.
• They can kite the slowed mobs to give healer a chance to catch up.
• They can decide whether to use Fortifying Brew to slow damage for a bit.
• They can Ring of Peace or Legsweep for an additional break.
• They can Expel Harm, or even roll away and Effuse.

All of these options are possible because they did not take all of that damage right away; instead they mitigated the damage, taking only a small %. The rest is only potential damage, that will be taken slowly over time if they do nothing to prevent it. Giving them options to either reduce the staggered damage (purify) or limit other damage until the staggered damage is taken and healed. Just because BrM doesn't mitigate in the same way as Prot Warrior or Paladin does not mean they are not mitigating. They are still softening the blow and reducing the danger of incoming damage.

"You should use the definition that everyone else uses lest you risk misunderstandings."

How about we all use the definition Blizz uses since they made the game?

Every Tank in Legion has only one ability that counts as "Active Mitigation" against Mitigation Checks.

Vengeance Demon Hunter — Demon Spikes
Guardian Druid — Ironfur
Brewmaster Monk — Ironskin Brew
Protection Paladin — Shield of the Righteous
Protection Warrior — Shield Block
Blood Death Knight — Blood Shield / Death Strike / Marrowrend ("recently used Death Strike" buff gained after using Death Strike or Marrowrend)