Is the Warcraft 3's 'Game Manual' considered canon? If so...

[Techno-Druid]

You're confusing keep/castle with kingdom. The name of the kingdom was retconned.

The publication history of the name of the kingdom is documented here:

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Stormwind_%...9#cite_note-25

Stormwind was basically retconned into being the name of the kingdom, Azeroth was changed into being the 'subcontinent' of the Eastern Kingdoms that Stormwind geographically resides on, hence why 'Azeroth' and 'Lordaeron' are as large in font as Kalimdor and Northrend are.

[Beloren]

1. She was called a princess by some people after she took power. She said she is not, but it does not mean people wouldn't call her that. Imagine this, you live for hundreads of years with a queen and suddenly all your race, identity etc is shattered and some priestess takes power. You'd call her princess too at least to feel that a bit hasn't changed. That being said, this is the only thing that has changed somewhat.
.

Tyrande could actually be a princess though, but not acknowledge the honorific as you cut all former allegiances when you become an acolyte of Elune, I'm just saying it may not necessarily be a retcon at all. If she takes her vows seriously, as high priestess, she wouldn't be accepting being called a pricness. We see royals do that from time to time, tyrande is more intriguing as a princess that gave up royalty for the priesthood, than she is just a priestess.

[DemonHunter18]

Since when was WC3 manual not canon? I thought it is canon unless later lore overides it or supercedes, unliike the RPG books which aren't canon period (thank God, b/c while the detail was nice, the actual game lore is far better in so many areas.)

I always preferred RPG books.

I honestly don't follow lore much anymore.

every expansion, new info, changes etc.

[Techno-Druid]

I always preferred RPG books.

I honestly don't follow lore much anymore.

every expansion, new info, changes etc.

Honestly the RPG Books had the most in-depth lore, at least in regards to the races.

[DemonHunter18]

Honestly the RPG Books had the most in-depth lore, at least in regards to the races.

Ikr

ahhhh good old days

[Techno-Druid]

To be honest, i have never seen it mentioned she was lowborne, this really is an assumption people have just assumed, like they assume all the night elves that fought Azshara were lowborne, which is not what i read, Kur'talos Ravencrest for starters was not lowborne, he was in line to the throne. A lot of people just answer with what they feel is lore.

Kur’talos was not a Highborne, but was implied to be of a higher caste than lowborne kaldorei.

The Ravencrest clan was a noble one, but it was not of the Highborne caste. On the contrary, Kur'talos, like most of the night elf populace, regarded the Highborne with suspicion and dislike.

I also don't think Kur’talos was ever the heir to the Kaldorei Empire, given that he wasn't related to Azshara (and disliked her) and was not of the Highborne caste.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Why was this 3 year old thread necroed?

[chazus]

The islands on the right are the Dragon Isles.

Doubt it. Dragon Isles has always been considered just off the coast of WPL and Quel Thalas, in the north.

[Kathranis]

The actual Kezan is between the Maelstrom and Kalimdor. Why would Thrall sail to the bottom of the map and then circle back passed Alliance territory to get to the Maelstrom?

This is the early prototype map for the world. One of them, anyway. Staats said that the original plan for the first expansion was South Seas, but was changed to Draenor later. He also suggested that goblins were considered as a potential playable race for the first expansion. We also know they originally considered pandaren for the Alliance race before settling on draenei, and they showed the prototype pandaren model at Blizzcon 2011.

Obviously the southernmost continent was originally intended to be Kezan, though they never went through with officially labeling it as such, and they eventually used that landmass, with the shape almost identical, for Pandaria. You can even clearly see what became the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle.

The two islands NW of the Maelstrom became Kezan and the Lost Isles. No idea what they would have originally been.

The island east of Zandalar was most likely meant to be Balor from WC2, and along with Tel'Abim (SW islands) and Zul'Dare (missing island in the Kul Tiras chain) it is now MIA. It could also potentially be the Darkspear Islands, based on the WC3 loadscreen. It's roughly where Vashj'ir wound up.

Plunder Isle was likely not meant to be one of those locations, and when shown in the manhwa, it was shown to basically be a rocky outcropping in the ocean just large enough for a pirate stronghold.

Blizzard originally said Kul Tiras moved due to tectonic shifting during the Cataclysm, but Chronicle indicates they've just retconned it to always being in the current location. Obviously Too Barad was near it.

Also, to whoever mentioned the Dragon Isles: no. Those were going to be north of Tirisfal, were scrapped very early in WoW, and were never mentioned or depicted anywhere officially outside of concept art. The concept seemed to become the basis for the Dragonshrines in Dragonblight, and a version of the old god temple made it into BFA as the Shrine of the Storm.

NE-most islands are of course the Broken Isles, as they were actually visited in WC2-3.


Keep in mind that development of WoW and WC3 overlapped for close to two years.


In the end, they managed to actually make the final game map surprisingly close, all things considered, even if it's not all exactly as it was planned. Still hoping Tel'Abim shows up at some point, and I'd still like to know what became of Balor and Zul'dare.

[Aucald]

I am going to leave this thread open because the topic itself is rather timeless, but please in the future check the date of the last post before resurrecting a long-dormant thread.

[viridian-716]

There's a handful of questions regarding a few specific lines throughout it's pages that I have, such as...


1. Tyrande Whisperwind - "Tyrande is an ancient night elven princess and high-priestess of the moon goddess, Elune." - Page 149, Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos Game Manual

- If she's a princess, who are her royal parents and is her blood-line special in any way? Has there ever been quests in WoW or anything written in the books to supplement this statement?



2. Mutant Murlocs - "Though Murlocs abound along the rugged coastal regions of Kalimdor, there is a mutant strain of the race that has emerged in recent months. Though it is unclear what has caused the creature's strange mutations, many agree that something dark and sinister is awakening deep beneath the raging Maelstrom. The mutant Murlocs have been so corrupted that they have been known to turn on their own brethren under duress. - Page 143, Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos Game Manual

- Something had to be asleep in order for it to awaken. Has N'zoth been awake and seemingly active since Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos? If not N'zoth, what else is capable of corrupting an entire strain of a race from deep under the Maelstrom?



3. Dryads/Keepers of the Grove - "The enchanted Dryads are the daughters of the Demi-God, Cenarius." and "The enchanted Keepers are the favored sons of the Demi-God, Cenarius." - Page 117 and 120 respectively, Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos Game Manual.

- I'll go out on a limb and say Cenarius isn't asexual. Who's the mother, to the first of these Dryads and Keepers of the Grove?



4. Nerubians - "Though the Nerubians were immune to his plague, Ner'zhul's growing necromantic powers allowed him to raise the spider-warriors' corpses and bend them to his will. As a testament to their tenacity and fearlessness, Ner'zhul adopted the Nerubians' distinctive architectural style for his own fortresses and structures. Though there are few pockets of Nerubian warriors left, they still seek to gain vengeance upon Ner’zhul and reclaim their subterranean kingdom. - Page 141, Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos Game Manual.

- Are there any known *living*, free, independant, establishments of Nerubians ever being mentioned about or shown in any books or WoW itself?



5. Warcraft 3's depiction of the World Map - Page 128 and 129, Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos Game Manual

- Is this just a grossly outdated map or is there anything to be construed out of these proposed islands dotting the open seas?

The overall "bigger picture" story is canon, specific/minor details are not. Metzen and other Blizzard execs/Dev have said this time and time again. Think treat it as you would book/film adaptations or different comic series of the same hero.

[therealbowser]

1. Princess was probably typo. She has never been referred to as such.
2. It could be anything. Old god stuff didn't show up until TFT, and it was vague even then.
3. Don't think about it it too heavily. Cenarius himself is the son of Malorne + Elune, and we don't even truly know what Elune is.
4. Yeah, there are. The quest chains for the dungeons in WotLK are led by living Nerubians.
5. It's a vague map. Don't lose any sleep over it. That said, Blizzard does seem to be using islands for continents in many of their general locations.

Lore from Warcraft III is largely outdated. The game has evolved significantly since then. Worry less about the lore in the book as being canon or not, and look more into the actual story in the games.

[viridian-716]

Tyrande could actually be a princess though, but not acknowledge the honorific as you cut all former allegiances when you become an acolyte of Elune, I'm just saying it may not necessarily be a retcon at all. If she takes her vows seriously, as high priestess, she wouldn't be accepting being called a pricness. We see royals do that from time to time, tyrande is more intriguing as a princess that gave up royalty for the priesthood, than she is just a priestess.

Every thing that mentioned her past (post WC3) has been that she came from a humble upbringing and was not of nobility or royalty. Now, it was more likely that out of habitual social norms the Nelfs may have wanted a monarch but Blizz later decided against this story line.

[therealbowser]

Still hoping Tel'Abim shows up at some point, and I'd still like to know what became of Balor and Zul'dare.

Good post, I wanted to add that we might see this area as content in BFA. It would make sense to me if a place like Zul'dare became the "Broken Shore" of BFA.

[Beloren]

Every thing that mentioned her past (post WC3) has been that she came from a humble upbringing and was not of nobility or royalty. Now, it was more likely that out of habitual social norms the Nelfs may have wanted a monarch but Blizz later decided against this story line.

I disagree, her past is never mentioned, I think it is just one thing her demanour and associations lead us to assume, but even though i may be wrong, there is nothing that actually states she came from humble beginnings. I haven't read the material in a while, but, I am discovering the night elves to be a lot trickier than they appear, the way they write them makes assumption so either, but there is actually a lot more to it.

Sometime i think we jump to retcon very quickly rather than give the benefit of the doubt or maybe stumble across another warcraft secrte, or fail to account the this is just new lore expanding old. But then again, every now and then it is exactly that, a retcon.

- - - Updated - - -

Kur’talos was not a Highborne, but was implied to be of a higher caste than lowborne kaldorei.

I also don't think Kur’talos was ever the heir to the Kaldorei Empire, given that he wasn't related to Azshara (and disliked her) and was not of the Highborne caste.

I don't trust that source, if they don't quote a source, ignore it. I specifically read the Kur'talos was in line of succession to the throne, as was Darth'remar. I don't know if he was highborne, we shouldn't assume every noble was highborne - highborne were the Queen's special caste she made, it is possible every noble was highborne and she decreed all her family such, but it is also possible they were not and they had rival castes, none of this is specified so it remains a possibility unless the source out right states he was not highborne - but i think the people who wrote the article were influenced by the rpg books that assumed all the night elves that fought Azshara were not-highborne even though WotA implies otherwise.

I really would recheck that source. If he links a source you can verify, then fair enough.

[cparle87]

There's a handful of questions regarding a few specific lines throughout it's pages that I have, such as...

2. Mutant Murlocs - "Though Murlocs abound along the rugged coastal regions of Kalimdor, there is a mutant strain of the race that has emerged in recent months. Though it is unclear what has caused the creature's strange mutations, many agree that something dark and sinister is awakening deep beneath the raging Maelstrom. The mutant Murlocs have been so corrupted that they have been known to turn on their own brethren under duress. - Page 143, Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos Game Manual

- Something had to be asleep in order for it to awaken. Has N'zoth been awake and seemingly active since Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos? If not N'zoth, what else is capable of corrupting an entire strain of a race from deep under the Maelstrom?

4. Nerubians - "Though the Nerubians were immune to his plague, Ner'zhul's growing necromantic powers allowed him to raise the spider-warriors' corpses and bend them to his will. As a testament to their tenacity and fearlessness, Ner'zhul adopted the Nerubians' distinctive architectural style for his own fortresses and structures. Though there are few pockets of Nerubian warriors left, they still seek to gain vengeance upon Ner’zhul and reclaim their subterranean kingdom. - Page 141, Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos Game Manual.

- Are there any known *living*, free, independant, establishments of Nerubians ever being mentioned about or shown in any books or WoW itself?

I got answers for two of them. N'Zoth was the Old God who eluded capture so he's always been active. He made the naga, corrupted Deathwing, and took over the Emerald Nightmare after C'thun, who created it, was slain.

As for Nerubians, yes. The questgivers you see literally outside the entrance to Azjol-Nerub are living and free. You actually do quests for them to overthrow Azjol-Nerub and the Old Kingdom, and they move in to gather clutches of eggs they hid and reclaim their city. One of them thanks you for your service and tells you should be honored to be witness to the rebirth of a new nerubian civilization.

[Combatbutler]

I got answers for two of them. N'Zoth was the Old God who eluded capture so he's always been active. He made the naga, corrupted Deathwing, and took over the Emerald Nightmare after C'thun, who created it, was slain.

N'zoth was caught just like the rest of them according to chronicle and the Old god that created the nightmare was Yogg

[cparle87]

N'zoth was caught just like the rest of them according to chronicle and the Old god that created the nightmare was Yogg

Yeah, you're right. Yogg made it then N'Zoth took over. Don't know why I said C'thun. You're also right about him being caught. Maybe I was mistaking him for C'thun, who wasn't imprisoned because he was thought dead. Boy am I scrambled today.

[viridian-716]

I disagree, her past is never mentioned, I think it is just one thing her demanour and associations lead us to assume, but even though i may be wrong, there is nothing that actually states she came from humble beginnings. I haven't read the material in a while, but, I am discovering the night elves to be a lot trickier than they appear, the way they write them makes assumption so either, but there is actually a lot more to it.

Sometime i think we jump to retcon very quickly rather than give the benefit of the doubt or maybe stumble across another warcraft secrte, or fail to account the this is just new lore expanding old. But then again, every now and then it is exactly that, a retcon.

- - - Updated - - -


I don't trust that source, if they don't quote a source, ignore it. I specifically read the Kur'talos was in line of succession to the throne, as was Darth'remar. I don't know if he was highborne, we shouldn't assume every noble was highborne - highborne were the Queen's special caste she made, it is possible every noble was highborne and she decreed all her family such, but it is also possible they were not and they had rival castes, none of this is specified so it remains a possibility unless the source out right states he was not highborne - but i think the people who wrote the article were influenced by the rpg books that assumed all the night elves that fought Azshara were not-highborne even though WotA implies otherwise.

I really would recheck that source. If he links a source you can verify, then fair enough.

WotA book a few internal monologues from Tyrande and Malfurion concluded about how Tyrande , Malfurion, and Illidan had a different childhoods than the others fighting. The "others" being of those noble birth and who never knew what hard work was like, unlike the three of them. The three of them would hunt together as kids and in the beginning of the first book it mentioned how Malfurion's parents died when he and Illidan were young.

Kur'talos was noble per military ranking only, not birth. He was not in succession of the throne, no one was. Azshara had no heirs and no implied relatives. Given her and Lord Xavius' stated height and features, it is possible they were among the first elves to ever walk Kalimdor.

The princes and princesses are believed to simply have been appointed due to sorcery skills and politics.

[Techno-Druid]

I disagree, her past is never mentioned, I think it is just one thing her demanour and associations lead us to assume, but even though i may be wrong, there is nothing that actually states she came from humble beginnings. I haven't read the material in a while, but, I am discovering the night elves to be a lot trickier than they appear, the way they write them makes assumption so either, but there is actually a lot more to it.

Sometime i think we jump to retcon very quickly rather than give the benefit of the doubt or maybe stumble across another warcraft secrte, or fail to account the this is just new lore expanding old. But then again, every now and then it is exactly that, a retcon.

- - - Updated - - -


I don't trust that source, if they don't quote a source, ignore it. I specifically read the Kur'talos was in line of succession to the throne, as was Darth'remar. I don't know if he was highborne, we shouldn't assume every noble was highborne - highborne were the Queen's special caste she made, it is possible every noble was highborne and she decreed all her family such, but it is also possible they were not and they had rival castes, none of this is specified so it remains a possibility unless the source out right states he was not highborne - but i think the people who wrote the article were influenced by the rpg books that assumed all the night elves that fought Azshara were not-highborne even though WotA implies otherwise.

I really would recheck that source. If he links a source you can verify, then fair enough.

It's apparantly pulled directly from the Warcraft Encyclopedia:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Warcra...los_Ravencrest