Hard, non timed 5 man content

[ID811717]

The timer system sucks because it discourages people from talking and socializing. People are too busy being efficient and moving along to the next pack instead. And as you know, the ENTIRE POINT of an MMO is socializing. Obviously, it needs to removed. The thing is, there are SO many antisocial systems in the game it is a problem that is pretty far down the list.

Join discord voice together and socialize. That's what high end M+ players do all the time.
M+ is be far the most social part of my WoW experience.

[Atherions]

Most of the dungeon timers are around 30 mins, its really not much of a speed run. A timer adds much needed complexity to otherwise very easy dungeons. With no timer you could just CC every mob in a trash pack and kill them 1 at a time with hero. In order for 1 mob to be threatening and non stupid - oneshotting tanks - every trash mob would need something like 8 different casts that needs interrupting and a ton of AOE things to avoid, essentially turning every trash mob into a boss.

[Granyala]

Back in BC i used to enjoy running heroics A LOT. It wasn't timed (except for shattered halls? if you wanted extra essence of air? lol). We had to cc mobs otherwise tanks get 2shotted by trash mobs. We used to take time and enjoy the dungeon. I miss it. highly unlikely we ever see this type of gameplay again. Blizzard admitted they like dungeon to be AOE-fests (saw them say it in some Q&A)

Yes it was SH, you had to rescue hostages to get nice primal essences.
I too miss that kind of gameplay. I think TBC Heroics, MGT pre nerf (Dat glaive toss lol) and early Cata dungeons were perfect. Communication and strategy were key.

*sigh*

[MoanaLisa]

There's been some talk of efficiency which is one of my long-time dislikes.

It's a concept that comes out of engineering and is pretty much the opposite of what RPG's are about. I'm a minority opinion on this but to my mind the game is now completely over-engineered at the expense of creativity and story elements. Faster and faster beat-the-clock runs are not always better.

Nonetheless find the key level that is beatable for your group (if it's a relatively stable group) and then push ahead until you can't beat the timer playing normally. Then it's more a matter of practice. Good groups will naturally accelerate their pace as they understand what works and what doesn't. Just have fun doing it, be social and don't over-stress about whether or not you're being efficient.

[Deleted]

Bring back 2 hours of stratholm dungeons.

[Granyala]

There's been some talk of efficiency which is one of my long-time dislikes.
It's a concept that comes out of engineering and is pretty much the opposite of what RPG's are about.

It's the ONLY thing RPGs are about if said RPGs throw unfun RNG driven grinds at you in order to artificially extend playtime.

If people actually had fun in this game, they would not be so obsessed about efficiency.

[Hitei]

It's the ONLY thing RPGs are about if said RPGs throw unfun RNG driven grinds at you in order to artificially extend playtime.

If people actually had fun in this game, they would not be so obsessed about efficiency.

If people don't like efficiency and wanted to have fun, they wouldn't worry about efficiency. It has fuck all to do with RNG or grinds. Every RPG that has ever existed has had players that pushed for efficiency and those who haven't. The only difference is now people are so obsessed with the reward that they play for that rather than to enjoy what they are playing, and so feel the need to endlessly whine about how they have to get to the reward.

It's pretty easy to see the difference is with the player mentality just by looking at Vanilla, which had even worse time sinkage for arbitrary shit and was even more dependent on an incomparably slower, RNG gearing process--but did not have people feel the need to try so hard to reach the end of the line, because playing video games was about having fun playing video games.

[Granyala]

It's pretty easy to see the difference is with the player mentality just by looking at Vanilla, which had even worse time sinkage for arbitrary shit and was even more dependent on an incomparably slower, RNG gearing process--but did not have people feel the need to try so hard to reach the end of the line, because playing video games was about having fun playing video games.

Take off your rose tinted glasses, they are deceiving you.

I can't speak for Vanilla but back in TBC people were every bit as obsessed as they are now.
In the beginning when stuff was fresh, people were fun, patient and curious. Over time said obsession surfaced when content was getting older.
So where does it come from? Right: people being sick and tired of running X for Y over9000! times.

The core problem of pretty much any MMO is crap gameplay.
It'can't entertain very long on it's own (esp outside of raids, where the gameplay is horrendously mindless but even in raids, a few times downed boss is a solved problem and no longer entertaining to the brain) so the DEVs rely on endless repetition and big rewards dangled in front of people in order to maintain subscriptions and get $$$.

Don't blame the player for chasing the reward, if the reward is pretty much all there is to give most players extended fun.

[Okacz]

I don't know, maybe, ENRAGE TIMER?
Also, difficult trash in raids Nice joke. I mean, it's called trash for a reason, you know?

Didn't think I had to specify it, but yeah, that's the idea. There are many boss mechanics in the game that would discourage you from lowering your groups DPS and could be incorporated more into dungeons. They aren't right now, since instead of making bosses difficult with DPS being relevant the whole dungeon is difficult by having a timer. All I'm talking about is that dungeons could stop having timers and start having raid-like mechanics preventing you from tankstacking, and in my opinion it would be better.

Doesn't always have to be every single boss with 3 minute enrage timer. Unbound Abomination keeps spawning more pools than you can efficiently clear, which spawn adds that only DPSers can efficiently kill. Galvazzt increases his damage after every blast, forcing you to kill him as quickly as possible, before they become crazy strong. Vol'Kaal not killed quickly enough will fill the whole stage with AoE. Just examples, but here are some mechanics (easy enough right now with Mythic 0, perhaps more relevant in Mythic +) that are designed to prevent you from tank or healer stacking.

[nowish]

I mean, you dont have to do the dungeon within the timer, but if you do you are rewarded with more loot, right?
Or are you saying you want the same rewards as people who speed run when you simply jsut clear the dungeon? #entitlement

[Ange]

Tl;dr just separate timed and untimed content, I hate that 5 man content is funnelled into speed running which in my opinion fosters elitism and ilv obsessing.

Mythic+ "SPEEDRUNS" meta was dominated by SURVIVAL SPECs. If survival was not an issue for you, your difficulty setting was just to low.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Don't get me wrong I think really challenging and equal rewards to that challenge would be cool as hell for the game. I just don't know how they make it rewarding enough to those that want to do it but also at the same time not make it something people doing other content suddenly also have to do at the same time. That is kind of the brilliance behind m+ is sure most people want to do the weekly chest to get a shot at the one good item. But the last chest upon completing the m+ isn't so rewarding that endlessly grinding it is absolutely necessary due to it being really random loot table and depending on forging more often than not on top of that after the raid tier is released (unless the AP ends up being to good, that kind of happened in Legion and might happen in BFA). So its rewarding enough to people that really like that game play but not so rewarding that everyone else has to grind it the whole time (unless of course that AP thing happens). But a standard 5 man that is super challenging and equal to say mythic raid gear drops for example would suddenly put a whole new tier of rewards into the game with much more target-able loot drops and such.

[Hitei]

Take off your rose tinted glasses, they are deceiving you.

I can't speak for Vanilla but back in TBC people were every bit as obsessed as they are now.
In the beginning when stuff was fresh, people were fun, patient and curious. Over time said obsession surfaced when content was getting older.
So where does it come from? Right: people being sick and tired of running X for Y over9000! times.

What rose-tinted glasses? Did you even read my post? I literally said that Vanilla had even worse time sinks and slow, RNG-based gearing. It was shitty in basically every way possible sans profession system. The point is that people didn't fucking whine about dumb shit the way they do now. No one in BC was spamming threads bitching about how "Waaah, netherdrakes take too long and shouldn't be locked behind epic flying!" the way they whine and moan about allied races, or that leveling alts was too hard and took too much time, or that it wasn't fair that good rep items on alts still had to be grinded to. Or that it took too many boss kills to get fully geared! There was no obsession. There were hardcore people who played effeciently, and more casual people who did their own thing and made their way, much slower, through the game.

The core problem of pretty much any MMO is crap gameplay.
It'can't entertain very long on it's own (esp outside of raids, where the gameplay is horrendously mindless but even in raids, a few times downed boss is a solved problem and no longer entertaining to the brain) so the DEVs rely on endless repetition and big rewards dangled in front of people in order to maintain subscriptions and get $$$.

You are exactly what is wrong with the video game community today.

"MMOs have crap gameplay and aren't entertaining! Companies should stop making MMOs MMOs and instead cater to me, who doesn't like MMOs!" If you don't like grinding or time investment, stop playing the games based on those things and let MMO players play MMOs. Don't bitch about how MMOs need to stop being MMOs because you don't want to play them. How are you still here after playing a game you don't like for 10 years?

Don't blame the player for chasing the reward, if the reward is pretty much all there is to give most players extended fun.

I don't blame the player for chasing a reward, because there isn't anything wrong to blame on someone. I blame people bitching about having to invest time to work towards a reward in a game genre that has always been about investing time to work towards a reward, at a time when it is easier than ever and requires less time than ever to do that work. I also laugh at the notion that RNG grinds have anything, anything at all do with the prevalence of desire for efficiency in an RPG or that such a desire is somehow counter to basic RPG logic, when the genre as a whole was originally built on the idea of efficient use of your available resources to deal with challenges. And there are just as many people striving for efficiency in games with zero RNG or grind, hence speedrunning.

Because again, the problem is not efficiency, it is the people.

If you think striving for efficiency is bad, and you do not like time investment, why the fuck would you play a game where time investment is the main focus and efficiency can make you more productive and reduce the time invesment if you want to avoid grinding. If you hate water, and you don't like boats because they are just a hotfix for not dealing with water only there as a product of people trying to stay out of the water: Why are you paying monthly to rent a boat and sail around the ocean so that you can get boat show prizes? Of course I'm going to blame you for not having fun.

[Nnyco]

Key not being upgraded.

timers for +1 are so generous you dont deserve a better key if you even fail that

[Accendor]

Part of the reason that M+ has a time limit is to discourage the use of unconventional group compositions. With no clock ticking down, what's to prevent you from running three tanks and two healers?

Softenrage on bosses? E.g. more adds spawning that you can kill etc.

That being said: Why should unusual groups not be a thing in the first place?

[Miyagie]

I hate that M+ Are just bad greater rifts, and why I don't consume that content. I want to play WoW not Diablo.

Do your weekly 5-15+ Mythic dungeon and stop play them, noone is forcing you to play them.

[Granyala]

You are exactly what is wrong with the video game community today.

"MMOs have crap gameplay and aren't entertaining! Companies should stop making MMOs MMOs and instead cater to me, who doesn't like MMOs!" If you don't like grinding or time investment, stop playing the games based on those things and let MMO players play MMOs. Don't bitch about how MMOs need to stop being MMOs because you don't want to play them. How are you still here after playing a game you don't like for 10 years?

Reading comprehension test: failed.

I never demanded anything, nor would I presume to do so. I merely explain one possibility why people behave as they do.
Personally, I pick the pieces I like and leave the rest to others instead of stressing out. Much easier on the nerves in the long run.
My hardcore addict days in which I desperately played whatever Blizzard set in front of me (no matter whether I actually liked it or not) are long since past.

Again though: the problem is not efficiency and it is not people. The root cause is game design that drives people to wanting to be as efficient as possible.
Eliminate that and the other problems will diminish.

- - - Updated - - -

That being said: Why should unusual groups not be a thing in the first place?

Because it creates fringe use cases and non wanted specs.
People often forget that it was quite difficult for a lot of specs w/o CC to find a dungeon group that would take them along.
I vividly remember back in TBC Terrace days that it was all "Mage/Lock" madness and DPS warriors for instance had to sit on the sidelines because the dungeon was considerably harder the less CC you had.

[Ahlae]

Do your weekly 5-15+ Mythic dungeon and stop play them, noone is forcing you to play them.

Dislike that there are people out there that murder? Lol better stop living then! /s Get out of here please and stop harassing people over disliking a function of the game

[Deleted]

When WoD released and we were preparing for realm race, we did the Challenge Modes, because there was a weekly(daily?) to defeat one, untimed, that rewarded gear 10 lvls above heroic dungeons.

This was in the weeks before raids opened and in the first two weeks, the Challenge modes were actually very unbalanced and extremely hard to do. So we've spent usually about 2-3 hours per dungeon. It was Mythic raid lvl of hard, but extremely satisfying, as I've never enjoyed the game more ever since. Myth+ don't come anywhere near this experience, because of their timed aspect.

[Mirishka]

The Mythic+ timer just brings out the worst of the WoW community, The rushers. The GOGOGO types. It's an awful experience if you don't have four friends to run with.

Um... not sure what rock you live under but dps have played the "gogogogo omg tank pull moar" card since, like Wrath. M+ has nothing to do with it.