Now that ML is gone, how are all you GM/RL's feeling?

[kooz]

That gives me the impression there ARE guilds with the system you want. You just dont wanna go to them, because its not on your server. Well, guess what. You prioritize and make a choice. If that server is what you care about most, dont go around saying how there are no guilds with your prefered loot method

at this point it does not matter as things have changed now

I just mentioned it as some people constantly say that it was easy just to leave the guild and find what you want, it is simply not true, not easy at all or prepare to pay for transfer best case.

[JackWest]

at this point it does not matter as things have changed now

I just mentioned it as some people constantly say that it was easy just to leave the guild and find what you want, it is simply not true, not easy at all or prepare to pay for transfer best case.

Yeah, but the person stopping said people from doing it, is themselves. OK, "WAS" themselves. I mean, people could've done it. Your experience shows it WAS actually possible. People just chose NOT to, for one reason or another.

[kamuimac]

So because you are so sad you won't leave a toxic guild like that EVERYONE needs to be punished.
Jesus Christ how sad can it get.

if you see it as punishemt it only means your guild was part of problem

its called making game and community better something all should aim at.

[Deleted]

if you see it as punishemt it only means your guild was part of problem

its called making game and community better something all should aim at.

What a bunch of bullshit.

This will only get more drama going than the old system did.
If the old system felt toxic to you, that's YOUR problem because you can just leave that toxic guild.

Don't turn it around to push your fanboy agenda...

[Vorkreist]

No change in my guild other than we recruited a lot of people and will be removing from the guild any player that is not up to par , be it socially, gameplay wise or otherwise. Whist before we could tolerate some fails, people are less enclined now to keep someone in the raid to loot bosses if the raid feels they don't deserve to be there.
The guild will be keeping a close eye on how people redistribue by themselves all loot they don't need, but if we see people hanging on gear for 2nd specs or playing favourites, they will also be removed from the guild.

This keeping for off spec will cause more drama than it ever was on ML.

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if you see it as punishemt it only means your guild was part of problem

its called making game and community better something all should aim at.

You're the only part of the problem besides the turd brained wow devs who make these changes.

[JackWest]

if you see it as punishemt it only means your guild was part of problem

its called making game and community better something all should aim at.

I would love to hear how promoting selfishness, and destroying/vendoring not needed loot over giving it to someone else, creates better community

[dojichan]

Well, for once, every healer will have to be in dps loot spec to try to get dps trinkets for other raiders.

Every piece of gear that will be tradable will have to be traded to the officer who will be in charge of redistributing it to the guild.

Quality of Life change right there.

Plus people will have to check Armory to see if anyone tried the soon-to-be good old "don't loot and wait for the postmaster to send you your loot.

You can only trade loot for slots you personally have gotten an item of equal or higher level in...so this wont work

[kooz]

With all that data blizz got- punishing abusers definitely makes sense and makes a better and less toxic community at a small price.

Hopefully they are watching what's going on and if ridiculous abusing/trading somehow persists they could just take one more step and completely shut down loot trading.

[Deleted]

With all that data blizz got- punishing abusers definitely makes sense and makes a better and less toxic community at a small price.

Hopefully they are watching what's going on and if ridiculous abusing/trading somehow persists they could just take one more step and completely shut down loot trading.

I think they're doing it step by step (no ML for pugs in legion, bam! no ML for anyone in BFA)...I think this is on the horizon they just dont want to do it abruptly. I would welcome the change as getting those whispers got old long time ago.

[MidnyteTV]

EPGP worked fine for a decade. Realm 1st LK, top 200 for 10 years after. still going strong.

I've seen countless scumbags like your guild come and go, as we stayed top 1 or 3 server and top 200.

In my world well... we laugh at you.

EPGP was the best overall system for the majority of raiding guilds. Loot council was for guilds that prioritized killing the boss way above the gear.

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Getting people to stick out fights that will take a few dozen pulls to kill is going to start becoming a bigger issue for guilds. Before if you were just getting to a fight like mythic Aggramar and knew that all the guilds before you took 200 to 500 pulls to kill it and had something along those lines in store for your group, one thing that helped with that time sink was knowing you were still gaining DKP, attendance points or whatever your raid used to help with loot. Now being there for a kill is all that matters for getting loot and this will make some of the more challenging parts of raiding even worse.

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So you think 19 people are so weak minded they let 1 person control them and what they do?

100% this. Now there is zero incentive to keep people wiping on hard bosses.

That's what ML did for players, if the system was set up for longevity, they knew if they just stuck around they would get rewarded. Now players can get their rewards at Blizzard's leisure and take off when things go sour.

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On the short term? Personal loot will make the first two weeks easier for the Raid Leader. After that? Much, much harder and a bigger pain in the ass. Our group will practically throw loot at each other, so we're going to have a fine time trying to keep the raid moving while everyone tries to give everything imaginable away to everyone else in the raid. What took us 5 minutes, will probably take us more like 15 minutes.

You may not believe this, and it's your prerogative, but we MADE him go master looter from personal loot AND put him in charge as the sole person on the loot council. That's right, an entire guild just straight up told the guild leader that we trust him to divide everything appropriately and went on our merry way. To everyone in the guild, loot is a tool to getting to the next boss, and the real reward is taking bosses down among friends.

Guilds and people like you are rare. Kudos to your guild. Your guild's focus was in the right place. I wish you and your guild much success because you have the right attitude.

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Ok, I am going to make it very easy for you to understand it also on, as you called it, a 'sociological' point of view.
The decision a person has to make towards anything in life drastically changes if a) their life is endangered depending on what decision they take or b) they merely have to switch a guild in an MMORPG resulting on which decision they take. So this concludes that your analogy is very VERY poor and can't be used in that regard.

And again, people had a choice. It's simple, you don't like the loot system a guild has, you leave that guild to join a guild which uses the loot system you like. Can't find a guild who uses the loot system you have? Make your own guild. protip: that's what self-reliable people do when they encounter a problem, they try to fix it by themselves and not wait for someone else to solve their problems.

This. There was no outcry from players regarding ML. Blizzard just wanted to shut down a supposed myth.

[Kalcifur]

If there's one thing to say will change, it's that guilds will place even more emphasis than ever on finding guild members dedicated to their specific goals (whatever they may be) as you now no longer have any control over some social walking away with a maxed titanforge trinket/weapon that one of the core raiders really needed.

Rather than making raid loot some kind of utopic distribution of wealth, what's really going to happen is that raids will become more insular and more exclusive than ever before, fulfilling the prophecy of the toxic guild group from a completely different angle.

In short, nothing about this change is going to help, at all. Any design choices that eliminate player choice is bad and will forever be bad. I have no issues with Personal Loot as a system, but the removal of our right to choose it in the content we participate in is bad design and deserves no love.

[MidnyteTV]

This.
I'm RL and I have loot rules.
If someone gets loot, it's because the loot gods favored them.
If you don't need it and can trade, option it for roll and best roll wins.
Everyone's cool with it, nice and easy.
I don't have time to worry about loot, nor do I want to sit on a boss 10 minutes after it's killed distributing it.
I'm wrangling cats over here leading the group and assigning roles and discussing strategies and all that jazz, loot being a non-issue is a dream come true.

Enjoy spending more time recruiting, once guildies get loot and your guild hits a wall, there is no incentive for them to stay.

If you're ok with it now, cool. But don't come here bitching when your trials snake your gear and ditch you after two weeks for a guild that a boss or two ahead of you.

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This is an odd one for me. I think PL promotes a better community over all (at least based off of personal experience), but removing ML so that it isn't even an option without a doubt takes away a groups freedom of how to handle drops (and not all forms of using ML were bad).

Through my past guilds I have experienced both forms of distribution, and while not talking for anyone else, ML was the #1 cause of guild drama, elitism, and people building drama filled hate factions against each other within the guild. But that wasn't exclusive to ML, it was just a function that spurred more negative players to be more vocal about, abuse and have something to cause a negative experience in the game.

I think the people blaming toxic player behavior on PL vs. ML are shortsighted and missing the mark. There are crappy people out there and it isn't ML that causes them to be crappy. Its just that ML is a easy tool for crappy people to take advantage of.


When it comes down to it, if the elitists would get off their high horse, they would realize that PL isn't a 'less fair' option. Its just a option with less freedom, and honestly, easily the fairest option (how can you get more fair the dumb luck?). When you have someone controlling and dictating where loot goes, there's always going to be someone feeling slighted in some way.

I think having PL for all scenarios save for in guild raiding is perfectly fine and ideal. But I do think it was a mistake to take the freedom of ML from dedicated guilds. Let them do things however they want. If it is some garbage guild with f'd up loot rules, leave it to the members subject to those rules to berate the GL/RL and leave that guild empty. Its not like anyone is pressured to stay in a guild unless its a 'want to stick with friends' sort of thing, but even then. Talk to your group of friends, talk to your raid leader and then decide to move on.

ML could be a problem, but I dont think ever was in a guild group as every person knows what they are walking into.

PL is great on everything else.

I disagree with PL making the game more like a solo game. I don't need my rewards to be metered out to me by someone else to feel like I am playing with people. We kill things together, but I don't see any need that we loot things together (unless of course its a unanimous decision by that group).


Once again. I think it was silly Blizzard removed it, but I see the reasoning for. Funny enough, with how causal this game has gotten, I don't see why anyone really has a problem with PL. People that talk about loot priority in a guild in todays content are taking this game way to seriously, just my own thoughts. But for me, the solution isn't to remove ML, its just to not join a guild that is overly anal about a trivial thing. Its less fun, so why would I play in that guild?

I find much more enjoyment of just being relaxed about it. People get what they get and I personally, and the people in my current guild, are more then happy to help out other members with trades when ever they get the chance. Easier, less thought involved, more convenient, more fun.

But for those that want to stress over the game and worry about the right person getting just the right drop (when back in the day it would make a difference but currently, not really) put out the highest possible numbers so they can pretend they are racing someone to a boss kill. Let them. There are people that like to and there are guilds for it.

WHen it comes to ML being taken advantage of, from my experience, it gets noticed right away and kills guilds right away. The bad officers usually don't have a guild for very long if they are doing that.

The fact of the matter is every guild is different. PL may be the fairest system for certain guilds. But the freedom of choosing your loot system that best suited your guild is the real problem. PL was an option in Legion.

Some guilds want LC for rankings. Some guilds want EPGP/DKP due to attendance issues.

We lost the choice. That's the problem.

[munkeyinorbit]

Why? DO you hate your own guild and have no mates who play with you, to the point that you'd PREFER to shard items instead of passing them to them for upgrades? Or having the small moment of politeness and civility in a random where you pass someone an item you don't need and words like "please" and "thanks" get used for once?

Most guilds aren't full of arseholes, and in particular SUCCESSFULL high end raiding guilds usually aren't.

If your guild is making people hand items to someone so they can be doled out, then that group has assholes as leaders. ML was removed because Blizzard was sick of the abuse that came with it. What do you think is going to happen if guilds keep on acting like assholes? They will remove the ability to trade items. They better start with guilds first because they are the ones who ruined it in the first place.

[MidnyteTV]

This is an odd one for me. I think PL promotes a better community over all (at least based off of personal experience), but removing ML so that it isn't even an option without a doubt takes away a groups freedom of how to handle drops (and not all forms of using ML were bad).

Through my past guilds I have experienced both forms of distribution, and while not talking for anyone else, ML was the #1 cause of guild drama, elitism, and people building drama filled hate factions against each other within the guild. But that wasn't exclusive to ML, it was just a function that spurred more negative players to be more vocal about, abuse and have something to cause a negative experience in the game.

I think the people blaming toxic player behavior on PL vs. ML are shortsighted and missing the mark. There are crappy people out there and it isn't ML that causes them to be crappy. Its just that ML is a easy tool for crappy people to take advantage of.


When it comes down to it, if the elitists would get off their high horse, they would realize that PL isn't a 'less fair' option. Its just a option with less freedom, and honestly, easily the fairest option (how can you get more fair the dumb luck?). When you have someone controlling and dictating where loot goes, there's always going to be someone feeling slighted in some way.

I think having PL for all scenarios save for in guild raiding is perfectly fine and ideal. But I do think it was a mistake to take the freedom of ML from dedicated guilds. Let them do things however they want. If it is some garbage guild with f'd up loot rules, leave it to the members subject to those rules to berate the GL/RL and leave that guild empty. Its not like anyone is pressured to stay in a guild unless its a 'want to stick with friends' sort of thing, but even then. Talk to your group of friends, talk to your raid leader and then decide to move on.

ML could be a problem, but I dont think ever was in a guild group as every person knows what they are walking into.

PL is great on everything else.

I disagree with PL making the game more like a solo game. I don't need my rewards to be metered out to me by someone else to feel like I am playing with people. We kill things together, but I don't see any need that we loot things together (unless of course its a unanimous decision by that group).


Once again. I think it was silly Blizzard removed it, but I see the reasoning for. Funny enough, with how causal this game has gotten, I don't see why anyone really has a problem with PL. People that talk about loot priority in a guild in todays content are taking this game way to seriously, just my own thoughts. But for me, the solution isn't to remove ML, its just to not join a guild that is overly anal about a trivial thing. Its less fun, so why would I play in that guild?

I find much more enjoyment of just being relaxed about it. People get what they get and I personally, and the people in my current guild, are more then happy to help out other members with trades when ever they get the chance. Easier, less thought involved, more convenient, more fun.

But for those that want to stress over the game and worry about the right person getting just the right drop (when back in the day it would make a difference but currently, not really) put out the highest possible numbers so they can pretend they are racing someone to a boss kill. Let them. There are people that like to and there are guilds for it.

If there's one thing to say will change, it's that guilds will place even more emphasis than ever on finding guild members dedicated to their specific goals (whatever they may be) as you now no longer have any control over some social walking away with a maxed titanforge trinket/weapon that one of the core raiders really needed.

Rather than making raid loot some kind of utopic distribution of wealth, what's really going to happen is that raids will become more insular and more exclusive than ever before, fulfilling the prophecy of the toxic guild group from a completely different angle.

In short, nothing about this change is going to help, at all. Any design choices that eliminate player choice is bad and will forever be bad. I have no issues with Personal Loot as a system, but the removal of our right to choose it in the content we participate in is bad design and deserves no love.

I ran a guild for 3 years in which I tried mightily to find members dedicated to the guild's specific goals. I believe nearly all guilds try to find members that fit their goals. It was hard for me to do that for 3 years, i'd imagine it is now 100000% harder now that they have no control or freedom.

But you are right, any design choice that eliminates player choice is bad.

[munkeyinorbit]

What? People in raid guilds want to progress. Not being stuck at the patchwork boss cause the dps didn't get the lucky gear they needed to burn the boss fast enough.
Loot distribution happens for a reason and it's not for all the stories you might have heard off which are mostly made up by people who have no clue what is going or completely fabricated to begin with.

All this is going to do is prolong the process of loot distribution.

There is however a chance this will be reverted. They already made azerite armor tradeable. Now if they see what an utter garbage fire they started they might revert it again.

This is a red herring. Blizzard has proven time and time again that gear has less to do with reaching dps requirements than skill. Those 20 guilds killing it first week? Yeah maybe, but all of the other try-hards should just play better. That is the same whether you are doing normal or heroic as well. "Optimizing" gear was just guild leadership abusing the rest of the guild and handing loot to their friends first. The abuse had to stop. Blizzard listened and they took away ML. Now jerks are going to try and rort the system again? Incoming no loot trading in Mythic Raids.

[Faesroll]

Well, for once, every healer will have to be in dps loot spec to try to get dps trinkets for other raiders.

Every piece of gear that will be tradable will have to be traded to the officer who will be in charge of redistributing it to the guild.

Quality of Life change right there.

Plus people will have to check Armory to see if anyone tried the soon-to-be good old "don't loot and wait for the postmaster to send you your loot.

I think you may have some issues in your guild

[MidnyteTV]

If your guild is making people hand items to someone so they can be doled out, then that group has assholes as leaders. ML was removed because Blizzard was sick of the abuse that came with it. What do you think is going to happen if guilds keep on acting like assholes? They will remove the ability to trade items. They better start with guilds first because they are the ones who ruined it in the first place.

Are you delusional?

If ML was such an abuse, why did nearly 90% of guilds utilize it? Why didn't they all collapse and the former members form a guild that used PL?

The majority of guilds don't act like assholes or they wouldn't have players to fill their ranks.

I can already see with your attitude what type of player you were. If I were to guess, you were in a guild with LC and was passed up because you weren't cutting enough mustard to get the best items first. Maybe I'm wrong.

Or maybe you should've started your own guild with PL last expac. Or hell start your own guild now and see how difficult it will be with this change. I dare you.

Unfortunately this change will bring out some crap. Being "forced" to trade an item you don't need to a guild member that could use it more is probably what's best for the guild. If you have an item that you do not need and a member could use it more, that's what's best for the guild to kill future bosses. If you can't play ball with that, then you are more concerned with your own ilvl than your guild's success. At that point, you are selfish and should probably play a single-player RPG.

[munkeyinorbit]

Are you delusional?

If ML was such an abuse, why did nearly 90% of guilds utilize it? Why didn't they all collapse and the former members form a guild that used PL?

The majority of guilds don't act like assholes or they wouldn't have players to fill their ranks.

I can already see with your attitude what type of player you were. If I were to guess, you were in a guild with LC and was passed up because you weren't cutting enough mustard to get the best items first. Maybe I'm wrong.

Or maybe you should've started your own guild with PL last expac. Or hell start your own guild now and see how difficult it will be with this change. I dare you.

Unfortunately this change will bring out some crap. Being "forced" to trade an item you don't need to a guild member that could use it more is probably what's best for the guild. If you have an item that you do not need and a member could use it more, that's what's best for the guild to kill future bosses. If you can't play ball with that, then you are more concerned with your own ilvl than your guild's success. At that point, you are selfish and should probably play a single-player RPG.

Looks like we have a guild officer here folks. It has been proven on this very website that Council loot was very unpopular. Blizzard listened and took ML away from you. It was 6 months ago that we found out the news and here we are still going on about it. "Guys, how can we keep on being assholes and gear our friends first". That's the attitude that lost you ML in the first place and now you're going to get gear trading taken away as well.

If you're just going to make wild accusations and lose the plot just refrain. It's embarrassing to you, it is awkward for me, and frankly, it isn't warranted. Actually do what you want with the gear. Just don't pretend that it's a master plan and you're doing it for the "good of the guild". You are doing it to gear your friends.

[Kalcifur]

I ran a guild for 3 years in which I tried mightily to find members dedicated to the guild's specific goals. I believe nearly all guilds try to find members that fit their goals. It was hard for me to do that for 3 years, i'd imagine it is now 100000% harder now that they have no control or freedom.

But you are right, any design choice that eliminates player choice is bad.

I've been in the same guild for 11 years now. Literally grew up with it. Was made GM once, tried to get someone else to do it for a year, it got thrown back to me immediately after. I've done solo Master Looter for three expansions straight with zero loot complaints from a guild that raids low end mythic. To see the choice be taken away fills me with an anguish that I lack the words to describe sufficiently. And the sad thing, is that the guilds who have always known why these systems were in place will cope with the changes, raids will move on, we all know loot drops again.

[MidnyteTV]

Looks like we have a guild officer here folks. It has been proven on this very website that Council loot was very unpopular. Blizzard listened and took ML away from you. It was 6 months ago that we found out the news and here we are still going on about it. "Guys, how can we keep on being assholes and gear our friends first". That's the attitude that lost you ML in the first place and now you're going to get gear trading taken away as well.

If you're just going to make wild accusations and lose the plot just refrain. It's embarrassing to you, it is awkward for me, and frankly, it isn't warranted. Actually do what you want with the gear. Just don't pretend that it's a master plan and you're doing it for the "good of the guild". You are doing it to gear your friends.

My guild ran EPGP. There was no controversy because the numbers didn't lie. If you showed up, you got gear. LC would not have worked for my guild. But it worked for other guilds. This myth you are perpetuating is clearly the sign of an inferior player that was too lazy to start your own guild (since you clearly know everything about running one).

You've been on this thread spewing unsubstantiated garbage that all guilds steal gear from players. It's a lie.

The attitude that clearly didn't get you any gear from LC is the attitude you are displaying. You felt entitled to loot. You had a choice to leave those guilds and go to a guild that suited your selfish needs. It's players like you that drive GMs crazy. Selfish, bad, and entitled. I bet guilds are lining up to add you to their roster after reading this.

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I've been in the same guild for 11 years now. Literally grew up with it. Was made GM once, tried to get someone else to do it for a year, it got thrown back to me immediately after. I've done solo Master Looter for three expansions straight with zero loot complaints from a guild that raids low end mythic. To see the choice be taken away fills me with an anguish that I lack the words to describe sufficiently. And the sad thing, is that the guilds who have always known why these systems were in place will cope with the changes, raids will move on, we all know loot drops again.

Its unfortunate for the many good guilds out there like the one you are in. If your guild is strong enough, you will adapt and move on. For guilds that have baddies like munkeyinorbit in their guild, best of luck.