Hard, non timed 5 man content

[dojichan]

What exactly stops you from running the key and not care about the timer? you still get loot.

Key not being upgraded.

Keep in mind that Key being upgraded is a design to REWARD players who over gear or over cheese the content.
People will always Over gear or over cheese things. It is human nature to find the easy way to do things and it is the nature of RPGS to over gear.

Case 1:
Have mythics without timers:
Players will either outgear them(Make it faster) or players will cheese them(Make it faster)
We always have....

Case 2:
Have mythics that scale with IL:
Players will never outgear them(Definition) But will cheese them(Make it faster)
We always have...this is how the runs in MOP were done that scaled with us.

Case 3:
Have the timers but no penalty for timer
Players will either outgear them(Make it faster) or players will cheese them(Make it faster)

Case 4Current situation)
Have a timer but no gear penalty(Just no upgrade)
Players will either make the timer or not:
If they make the time then either they outgear it and thus need an upgrade to be interesting or they cheese it and need an upgrade to make it interesting
If they dont make timer then either they dont outgear it(And should keep running until they do) or they cant yet cheese it(And need to figure out better strats to upgrade)

Case 4 seems the best

[tikcol]

At the end of the day, the timer isn't really that relevant.

[Bangdingow]

If the healer has any blue on their mana bar, I'm going ham. Get 5 more players and do a heroic raid, this game already has enough difficulty levels for each type of content.

[Miyagie]

Dislike that there are people out there that murder? Lol better stop living then! /s Get out of here please and stop harassing people over disliking a function of the game

Harassing people ? You fuckboi need to go out of here, fast.

[Deleted]

Nothing. If you want to take 3 hours to clear a mythic+ I think you should be able to. Its just lazy design that every M+ is based on a timer system

But nobody is stoping you from going slow. You just dont get +1 on your key.

[Thelyron]

I completely agree. Time runs are absolute cancer.

[Deleted]

Definitely feel it should be optional, timed runs cater for those who want to min/max, formulate routes, best trash packs to pull/avoid & in that regard has its own competitive ladder.

Me, I want that 5 man challenge but without having to research every minuscule part of a dungeon layout, which trash packs have the most brutal abilities, where to use an invisibility potion, where & who should run die, res up past trash. For expansions now I've been someone who PuGs content, I like the opportunity to meet others who I haven't played with don't really know their level of skill so its always interesting. If you run with the same people know they won't mess up it gets tedious, I don't mind a challenge, I don't mind wiping, I don't mind others learning.

I'll avoid M+ this expansion because 1) Guardian Druids will not be wanted at all and 2) I don't like that play style where you rush.

[Battlebeard]

I think they should have kept Challenge Modes as a separate thing (with scaled gear, no rewards other than cosmetics etc) from M+. One did not have to rule out the other.

[Rageadon]

I'd like to have back 5-mans similar to the difficulty of Cata dungeons, but I don't think it's a direction Blizz cares to pursue.

the tears back then, you could taste the salt, no one seems to remember how "hard" those HC where.

[Accendor]

Because it creates fringe use cases and non wanted specs.
People often forget that it was quite difficult for a lot of specs w/o CC to find a dungeon group that would take them along.
I vividly remember back in TBC Terrace days that it was all "Mage/Lock" madness and DPS warriors for instance had to sit on the sidelines because the dungeon was considerably harder the less CC you had.

Non wanted speccs exist in the game right now, so that can not really be an argument.
For all other cases: Just get a guild group.

[Soon-TM]

I posted this on the WoW forums. I think speed running and 5 man mythics should be separate parts of the game. They need different skill sets, speed running is about minimaxing dps and often cheesing mechanics, normal mythics (at least when people don't overgear them) require thinking. Not to say timed runs can't be hard.

Mythic0 is already easy for most people. My idea is to make mythic0 genuinely hard and award loot 5ilvs below heroic raid gear (because forming a raid is harder than forming a group). Make them as hard as heroic raids.

Have heroic dungeons have a timed options with all the affixes we know now. What would they drop? Maybe items that helped complete dungeons faster, cosmetic/mount rewards and at very high keys maybe some BiS gear that helps in raids.

Tl;dr just separate timed and untimed content, I hate that 5 man content is funnelled into speed running which in my opinion fosters elitism and ilv obsessing.

Spot on. I think that the sweet point for dungeon difficulty were BC heroics, before you outgeared them, or pre-nerf Cata heroics (minus all those cheesy oneshot mechanics). Timed runs foster a toxic environment, of which the "gogogogo" mentality is the best exponent. Besides, they feel an awful lot like Diablo's greater rifts hamfisted into a MMO format.

[Hitei]

Reading comprehension test: failed.

I never demanded anything, nor would I presume to do so.

Again though: the problem is not efficiency and it is not people. The root cause is game design that drives people to wanting to be as efficient as possible.
Eliminate that and the other problems will diminish

Just because you fail to understand what you yourself are typing does not mean I fail at reading.

If you, on the other hand, bothered to actually read, you'd realize that I've already pointed out efficiency has absolutely nothing to do with the game's design. People strive for efficiency in minecraft, counter-strike, MOBAs, platformers, literally any game type. And again, since you somehow managed to miss it, the problem is with people, because there's nothing wrong with a system rewarding efficiency, which all systems will literally always do because that is exactly how systems work (and why every video game that has ever been made promotes efficiency)--the problem is people playing games with a large amount of efficiency to be had, and then whining about how they're """"""forced"""""" to be efficient, because that is the most efficient way to get rewards.

The only thing that needs to be eliminated here are people crying about how they decide to play a certain way despite not wanting to play that way.

[Granyala]

(and why every video game that has ever been made promotes efficiency)

When I play the Witcher III I don't give a rats ass about "efficiency". Why? Because the actual gameplay is entertaining. In fact I don't want to finish the game faster, I want to take my time.
When I do World quests, Efficiency is king, not only because I have to do them repeatedly but also because killing mobs in the overworld is absolutely mindless and bores me to tears, so I want to be done with that part of "char maintenance" it as quickly as possible in order to move on to more entertaining aspects of the game. Same goes for Dungeons after a while and eventually I can't (or rather could not) be arsed and only logged in for the remaining entertaining part: raiding.

If you cannot see the difference in design and subsequent impact on player behavior, then any discussion is moot. Psychology is very much a part of Game design, designers want to encourage certain behaviors and want to discourage others.

[Varitok]

Um... not sure what rock you live under but dps have played the "gogogogo omg tank pull moar" card since, like Wrath. M+ has nothing to do with it.

What are you talking about? Please read my post more thoroughly. It brings out the worst in the community, i'm not saying they don't exist.

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Those people that you claim to have an awful experience with, without timer, you will just have the same awful experience but just way longer o.O

I said I have an awful time with the timer, not without. I enjoy normal mythics, they are way more laid back.

[Dacien]

I have to admit, the only reason I don't like Mythic + is solely the "speedrun" aspect. I'm more of a tactical-minded player. For example when I did my first Mythic 0 this expansion, we all took it slow and methodical, neutralizing trash packs efficiently and carefully. That was fun.

For some reason the speedrun, never-stop-moving aspect of Mythic + just kills the whole experience for me. I'm sure I'm in the minority.

I wish we had a Mythic + for execution instead of speed, or something like that. Taking the least damage, doing mechanics properly, something like that. Anything but the speedrun paradigm we have now.

[Schattenlied]

Part of the reason that M+ has a time limit is to discourage the use of unconventional group compositions. With no clock ticking down, what's to prevent you from running three tanks and two healers?

enrage mechanics on the bosses would fix that right up.


As far as I'm concerned, completing a mythic+ dungeon at all should +1 the key, the timer should only be there to +2/3 and grant extra chests.

[Kwaai]

I wish we had a Mythic + for execution instead of speed, or something like that. Taking the least damage, doing mechanics properly, something like that. Anything but the speedrun paradigm we have now.

This is M+ at high keys.

[Zyky]

i'd be up for mythic+ version where it wasn't a stress test on your tanks hp, your healers mana, and dps' cooldowns. I'd much rathar take my time than just plow through a mythic. The timed runs feel like i'm playing diablo and doing greater rifts.

I mean if you're doing a 10 or 15 depending on when, it doesn't matter if you make the timer or not.

[Zanaku]

The timer system sucks because it discourages people from talking and socializing. People are too busy being efficient and moving along to the next pack instead. And as you know, the ENTIRE POINT of an MMO is socializing. Obviously, it needs to removed. The thing is, there are SO many antisocial systems in the game it is a problem that is pretty far down the list.

But keeping the timer system is a total non-starter. It must go. Period.

Why can't you use the Blizzard Voice chat (which is pretty good right now surprisingly) to socialize with your mythic groups. It does not discourage socializing. It is not conducive to type to someone and strategize while speed running. but nothing is stopping you from getting in discord or using blizzard voice, to strategize while you are doing the dungeon. where you can call out interrupts, and CC's and other utilities

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Sorry in advance for the long post. I don't necessarily agree with havin some separate dungeon based PvE system where you don't have to worry about a timer. HOWEVER, I will entertain the idea. Honestly, there are some things in the recent expansions that I wish would change that others seem to totally be against so I can understand the struggle.

Anyways. Here is my problem, unlike Raiding, The trash in Dungeons are a much bigger part of what makes them... dungeons. Let's just say for example that the way that Blizzard decided to increase the difficulty, was to give everything more health, make it do more damage, so that any casts, debuffs, or mechanics that went off were extremely deadly (like on higher keys). Also lets say that they added an affix system similar to that of mythic+. What just stops you from running only tanks and healers. What stops you from basically CC'ing every mob in a pack and just Single Targetting it down? What stops you from waiting on CDs and Bloodlust for every pull? There are so many exploits.

Maybe you can argue, that ok, only some people will run 3 tanks and 2 healers. But that just means, If i were to PuG this hypothetical PvE dungeon content, I'm going to have to fight with them to ask them to switch to dps? So then you make your own group, with guildies where you dont have to worry about that.But what stops you from just playing slower in mythic+ right now with guildies.

I just dont see how that playstyle is fun. CCing every mob in a pack and just single targetting it down 1 by 1. So maybe you are wanting bosses to be harder. That basically makes dungeons like 5 man raids. Which isn't the worst thing in the world. But as a former mythic raider that did push the hardest content. The thing that made raiding difficult was the fact that you had to have 20, 25 or 40 people (depending on timeline) basically play perfectly, for 5-20 min straight. That can be much easier to do with only 5 people, so it won't ave the same difficulty, especially if you can cheese it with group compositions and infinite rest breaks.

I don't know. I feel like if you did more high mythic+ keys with your buds, then the timer doesnt matter, unless you want to try and set faster times (usually that comes with repetition and extreme knowledge of the dungeon). Higher keys in a similar way to raids, require 5 people to play almost perfectly for 20-30 min, but with Trash thrown in the mix.

[oplawlz]

like 1 tank 4 shaman, or a druid/rogue comp stealth it all.

pull to the first boss with all trash, wipe first ankh, ress others kill boss, repeat 3 more times = all 4 bosses down.

in before someone says no you need to clear a % of trash, lol now you're going back to mythic plus you can't just pick and choose all the bits you want from mythic plus, either run that or don't.

Sure you can, why not? The only thing the Op is suggesting is harder content without the timer. As long as it's an additional mode without taking away the option to do timed stuff i don't see what the issue is.