Stat priority

[drakoncherepaxa]

Alright so,

Back in Legion we had that stat priority crit>masterty versality haste etc

Now, in BFA, all havoc dhs have to make as many speed as possible. Why?

I want to discuss the reason why speed is more important than crit for today. All guidelines say it and every dh now is haste oriented.

[Cytraz]

By speed, do you mean haste?

Also, go sim your character at raidbots.com. This will tell you exactly what stats your character needs to prioritize with your current gear/talents.

When I sim my character, the only secondary stat that seems to differentiate itself from the others is mastery. It just looks to be a bit worse than the others, whereas the other three are very close to eachother.

[Onikaroshi]

Crit isn't the "end all be all" anymore because Chaos Strike no long refunds on crit, but on a straight 40% chance.

[drakoncherepaxa]

By speed, do you mean haste?

Also, go sim your character at raidbots.com. This will tell you exactly what stats your character needs to prioritize with your current gear/talents.

When I sim my character, the only secondary stat that seems to differentiate itself from the others is mastery. It just looks to be a bit worse than the others, whereas the other three are very close to eachother.

Yeah, sorry. Sure, I mean haste.
I did some sims and the most funny thing that it seems a bit incorrect. My friend's warlock dps is lower by 2k than mine lol. When we do mythic runs, his solo target damage is way more bigger than mine. So I am quite sceptical about those new school things.

But. I actually wanted to know why priority changed. If anyone knows.

- - - Updated - - -

Crit isn't the "end all be all" anymore because Chaos Strike no long refunds on crit, but on a straight 40% chance.

That is what I was looking for! Thanks demon brother.

[Orloth]

To expand, what makes a stat really amazing is positive feedback loops, or situations where having more of the stat makes that stat, a different stat, and/or a particular ability more affective then the stated benefit of the stat itself. So for Legion, we had crit refunding fury on CS, making CS essentially cheaper there more crit we had, and on top of that CS had a ludicrous +crit dmg multiplier from our artifact. This means that crit and CS had some powerful feedback loops making them better the more of them you had. Add in demonic's own feedback loop of souls > more CS > more souls and we got why crit was king for the end of Legion.

Early on in the expansion, we won't have access to enough secondary stats to feed any of those feedback loops. Even if they haden't been mostly removed, there isn't enough fuel to make it affective.

This causes us to default to stats that just scale better naturally, which is Haste. Haste affects almost all of our damage (pretty much just leaving out Fel Rush, Vengeful Retreat, Eyebeam, and Fel Barrage) and is only 65 (iirc) rating per %, where most of the other are 85 (also iirc).

Versatility is powerful because it affects all of our damage equally and starts at 0. Where as crit and mastery each start with a higher value (11% crit and whatever 8 mastery puts you at), causing the natural diminishing returns to put them on a lower footing.

Later on, once we have access to more secondary stats (or our HoA gets high enough level) we'll start seeing the specs that rely on those feedback loops (like demonic) start to pull ahead.

And just a historical note: this is the same as it was in Legion. So long as Momentum doesn't increase duration with haste, and First Blood doesn't scale with Mastery, they'll be balanced such that they'll be stronger in early tiers than they will be in later tiers. This is all part of the current design philosophy (whether or not you agree with that philosophy is a discussion for another thread).

[Deleted]

You can't just stack haste. I tried it and it went below mastery on stat weights.
Doesn't matter how often you hit something if it's got nothing behind it.

For instance: My stats right now are 18% Crit, 15% Haste, 20% Mastery, 8% Versatility.

Stat weights from simming:

Weapon DPS 8.59
Off Hand Weapon DPS 1.96
Agility 1.87
Versatility 1.34
Critical Strike 1.33
Haste 1.07
Mastery 0.99

[i5Typical]

You can't just stack haste. I tried it and it went below mastery on stat weights.
Doesn't matter how often you hit something if it's got nothing behind it.

For instance: My stats right now are 18% Crit, 15% Haste, 20% Mastery, 8% Versatility.

Stat weights from simming:

Weapon DPS 8.59
Off Hand Weapon DPS 1.96
Agility 1.87
Versatility 1.34
Critical Strike 1.33
Haste 1.07
Mastery 0.99

OP, haste is great for me still, but like the previous stated. Just gonna have to try simming if really trying to min max.
Here are mine below, REALLY need more haste lol.

Weapon DPS 7.90
Haste 1.82
Off Hand Weapon DPS 1.78
Agility 1.71
Versatility 1.21
Critical Strike 1.17
Mastery 0.78

[Cytraz]

These are mine:

Weapon DPS 8.37
Off Hand Weapon DPS 2.05
Agility 1.87
Haste 1.38
Critical Strike 1.35
Versatility 1.30
Mastery 0.93

The take away: Sim for yourself. Everyone has different stat priorities. As I said earlier, for me, mastery is by far the worst stat atm. Probably because I have too much of it already. Once I start getting more of the other 3 stats, Mastery will probably begin to become more valuable to me.

[Khiyone]

So long as Momentum doesn't increase duration with haste, and First Blood doesn't scale with Mastery, they'll be balanced such that they'll be stronger in early tiers than they will be in later tiers. This is all part of the current design philosophy (whether or not you agree with that philosophy is a discussion for another thread).

Momentum and Nemesis don't need to have increased duration with haste, though. Haste increases the frequency of attacks within those windows and causes haste to affect them positively; it's not analogous to the situation of First Blood and mastery where mastery simply does nothing at all.

[glorf12]

All the sims and stat weights you guys are posting are meaningless if you don't say which spec you play.
Thats why your weights are all different.

- - - Updated - - -

These are my weights. I'm ilvl 344 with the following build and azerite traits. Below are my stat weights. All sims done with raidbots
3213222 Build.
2x Revolving Blades
2x Azerite Globules
1x Eyes of Rage
1x Heed My Call

Stats
Crit 17.75%
Haste 16.31%
Vers 5.85%
Mast 23.52%


Patchwerk
12,717 DPS
Weapon dps 8.64
OH dps 2.08
Agi 1.89
Haste 1.41
Vers 1.4
Crit 1.36
Mast 0.97

HecticAddCleave
20,356 DPS
Weap DPS 15.08
Agi 2.96
Vers 2.23
Haste 2.01
Crit 1.96
Mast 1.84
OH dps 1.81

[Deleted]

All the sims and stat weights you guys are posting are meaningless if you don't say which spec you play.
Thats why your weights are all different.

That's quite interesting, your ilvl and Azerite Talents should be pulling you quite ahead but I'm simming just under in single target and 1.5k over in cleave.

I'm 342 running 1311221 with Revolving Blades/Elemental Whirl, Rezan's Fury/Earthlink, Unbound Chaos/Gutripper.

Got 12,573 DPS for Single Target and 21,805 DPS for HecticAddCleave.

Considering how hellish Momentum is to play I'm quite happy with this. Guess it's not so much better after all.

[glorf12]

That's why I mentioned I used raidbots for those weights.
I've found raidbots and the simcraft program give me different results even if I'm using the newest version of each.
I'm going with the raidbots numbers.

Also my weapons are 340 and 330. With how high weapon dps scales, if you have a higher ilvl weapon you should sim higher.

[Orloth]

Momentum and Nemesis don't need to have increased duration with haste, though. Haste increases the frequency of attacks within those windows and causes haste to affect them positively; it's not analogous to the situation of First Blood and mastery where mastery simply does nothing at all.

Yeah, probably not the best example, best excuse I can give is that I main Vengeance at the moment. I hope the overall point still comes across despite my blunder.

[Cacstern]

Sim for 3211222; ilvl 345
2x Unbound Chaos
1x Revolving Blades
1x Overwhelming Power
1x Unstable Flames
1x Gutripper

Stats:
17% Crit
16% Haste
18% Mastery
9% Vers

Stat Weights:
13,049 DPS
Weapon DPS 8.81
Off Hand Weapon DPS 2.14
Agility 1.97
Critical Strike 1.49
Versatility 1.41
Haste 1.35
Mastery 1.10

Char Link

[Baroclinic]

Haste = Faster Blade Dance/Death Sweep CD. Also faster autoattacks and GCD. Revolving Blades Traits makes us happy when we gots lots of haste.
Vers = Again, a lot of our damage is not Chaos. ie Immolation, Blade Dance (the physical part), melee. Mastery really takes a backseat now. Vers maybe nearly as important as haste. Seems like haste is giving me less returns these days compared to using some Vers. But its mostly what the RNG blesses me with I suppose.

Crit cause Blade Dance/Death sweep and autoattack puts her in the #3. She does not regulate how much refunded resources anymore

Mastery, really taking the backseat. Running faster is great, and some good increase on face blasts and chaos strikes. Just doesn't hold up to vers/haste.

[Deleted]

Vers is the number one i am pretty sure overall.. tried more or less haste and it gave out lower numbers 349 ilvl now

Funny thing is haste fell way below even Crit and it's only slightly above mastery.. Crit for me is now above Vers

[kaelleria]

Crit dropped like a rock when they removed the refund component from CS critical strikes.

Generally ilvl > all and Haste ~> Verse >crit > mastery

That being said the dps difference between having the best secondary and worst secondary is only a few dps...

[Moarbacon]

It's really odd that mastery is tanking as hard as it is. Doesn't a pretty significant chunk of our damage come from trail of ruin and eye beam and such?