I will admit that I now believe beta testers had it right. (class mechanics)

[Astro420]

I feel like dungeon mechanics are a bit better, which could offset the issue with simple class rotations, but I don't think they really fine-tuned it to offset it fully. I really enjoy bosses like Mythic Tol Dagor endboss - a fun fight with interesting mechanics for a dungeon, but not all of the bosses have these. I, personally, would like to see more difficult gameplay rather than difficult rotations, but some rotations are just pure 'meh' (retri paladin, for example).

Edit: I personally think they shouldve just given some legion traits/legendary passives on the neck and make it progress like artifact weapons, instead of this weird system.

[Jimmyw]

im enjoying my Affli warlock a lot. really loving it and I can choose a more passive spec or a more spam every gcd with dots spec. And if we dive into demonology the real spam spec appears. to me its not as passive as some of you guys claim it to be, but maybe its just the warlock thats looking OK atm and every other spec is dull?

[Lei]

Eeeey, at least you are not locked into 4 gear pieces like with tier sets. It's only neck, head, shoulders, chest...

Gwahahahahhahahahhahaha.



- Blizz, what are you willing to give up to forcepush ideas that clearly don't work from the get go?
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(See Island Expeditions and pets/mounts too.)

[Jimmyw]

The fun part is that mage and rogue are the least fucked class imo .... My warlock feel so meh, so i decided to main shadow priest ... hahahahah i'm so fucked.

And i am like others, on my 4th chars to 120 because i can't find one that actually feel good to play.

see, this is a PERFECT example of different taste, different playstyle etc. I find my warlock to be incredibly awesome and I have SO much fun as affli. I do dabble in destru and hope for a demonology buff - but I just love my warlock. a lot to do and different ways to build him, want more passivity - good, take threse talents. Want more dots to keep on the target - take these talents. short gist of it is: I am very happy with my warlock.

you arent, you find it meh. and guess what? thats totally OK - thats where differnce in playstyle and taste come in. also a perfect example of how its impossible for lbizz to please everyone at once.

[vashe9]

You still fail to see that if we kept legion mechanics, we'd be playing legion again and you'd be the first one to whine. I'm sure of it.
I'm happy with the BM hunter slight changes, it's still fun to play. Maybe you rolled the wrong class.

Everyone always say that BM is easy to play, boring... but most BM hunters I see just suck...So explain that to me. How you can suck with a "brainless" class ? Because its not as brainless as you think.

[Nyel]

see, this is a PERFECT example of different taste, different playstyle etc. I find my warlock to be incredibly awesome and I have SO much fun as affli.

*snip*

Tell me, what's the real difference between Legion Affliction and BfA Affliction that makes you think the spec now is so much better than it was in Legion with artifact weapon.

- - - Updated - - -

You still fail to see that if we kept legion mechanics, we'd be playing legion again and you'd be the first one to whine.

Actually we're playing Legion again because most specs are exactly the same with minor tweaks here and there. Before BfA every expansion drastically changed classes/gameplay.

[vashe9]

Tell me, what's the real difference between Legion Affliction and BfA Affliction that makes you think the spec now is so much better than it was in Legion with artifact weapon.

- - - Updated - - -



Actually we're playing Legion again because most specs are exactly the same with minor tweaks here and there. Before BfA every expansion drastically changed classes/gameplay.

No, people here are crying because they don't have the same gameplay as legion + legs. You people are NEVER satisfied and I wonder why you still play this game

[Nyel]

No, people here are crying because they don't have the same gameplay as legion + legs. You people are NEVER satisfied and I wonder why you still play this game

Maybe we people are not satisfied by dull and boring gameplay and that's why we complain?

[Malikath]

The fun part is that mage and rogue are the least fucked class imo .... My warlock feel so meh, so i decided to main shadow priest ... hahahahah i'm so fucked.

And i am like others, on my 4th chars to 120 because i can't find one that actually feel good to play.

because blizzard has always favored those classes specs because they're the ones they actually play.

- - - Updated - - -

You still fail to see that if we kept legion mechanics, we'd be playing legion again and you'd be the first one to whine. I'm sure of it.
I'm happy with the BM hunter slight changes, it's still fun to play. Maybe you rolled the wrong class.

Everyone always say that BM is easy to play, boring... but most BM hunters I see just suck...So explain that to me. How you can suck with a "brainless" class ? Because its not as brainless as you think.

which were lacking by MoP standards.
no one gives a shit what you think.
why, is BM finally dumbed down enough for you to play?

[Deleted]

Rogues are designed with haste in mind to fix the specs. Which is the only way new talent options will open up eventually. Blizz wages war against secondary stats but players are still going to chase secondary stats over ilevels.

Try playing fire with 12% crit

[Deleted]

Expected...

Why?

Did you do the beta test? Did you provide the feedback? No.
If everyone would participate, things would be different.

It's like ever since Vanilla, 10% of the testers are actually testing. The 90% is AFKing and doing /dance once in a while.

Sorry, but not sorry for the community.

[Deleted]

Some of us mages were already playing with GS in Legion, so that's not really a new button. Comet Storm is just meteor and also was in Legion, so I'm not entirely sure I would hinge much on those two spells. Frost is Frost, it didn't really change all that much from Legion. Yeah spot here or there, but if you had it down in Legion it will be a breeze to pick up in BfA.

Frost isn't really the issue with Mages, Fire and Arcane are imo. Arcane works but is boring as heck, it's pretty simple at this point. Fire feels like dating the dumb sister of an ex, the looks are there but it lost all of it's punch. Not to mention the amount of survivability that was lost going from Legion to BfA.

Azerite gear isn't going to change much so people that keep wanting to put their hope into that system are living on false hope. Blizzard has already shown us what they are going to do, nerf all of the spec specific ones and bump up the generic ones so that they are easy to balance across classes and specs. You can take the class specific ones, but it's not going to be the optimal way to go.

I have a strange feeling we are going to look back and view BfA as the meh version of Legion. They systems are mostly the same, but something about it will end up not feeling as good as Legion, assuming of course they don't make sudden changes.

I agree on fire.
On arcane I have no comment as I was never attracted to it.
What I wanted to say that if anything, frost got better. It's nearly the same, but has couple bits added and I love how we have more than 2 talent set ups now. It's not amazing rework or anything, it is just nice now and I don't agree with OP. Lack of haste is a bit painful, but manageable, I just hate pet
For those who played GS it might be not that different, but again, if you play for the spec, not viability, why would you worry about performance of some talents. It is not terrible or unplayable choice by any means.

[Sting]

The "It's just beta! I'm SURE they'll change it, what are you even worrying about smh" crowd is finally coming to its senses I see.

[Deleted]

The "It's just beta! I'm SURE they'll change it, what are you even worrying about smh" crowd is finally coming to its senses I see.

Yeah, now you have the "it's only first patch and first raid" crowd.

[Armourboy]

I agree on fire.
On arcane I have no comment as I was never attracted to it.
What I wanted to say that if anything, frost got better. It's nearly the same, but has couple bits added and I love how we have more than 2 talent set ups now. It's not amazing rework or anything, it is just nice now and I don't agree with OP. Lack of haste is a bit painful, but manageable, I just hate pet
For those who played GS it might be not that different, but again, if you play for the spec, not viability, why would you worry about performance of some talents. It is not terrible or unplayable choice by any means.

Frost still has it's issues they never fixed going from Legion to BfA and all it takes is a nerf for those to no longer be overlooked because it's not one of the top specs anymore.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Core of the problem is they wanted the neck to replace the weapon with the fact that the weapon changed classes up with shorter cooldowns, increased power on certain abilities, new abilities, and so on with the weapon being able to be removed (with all those things) and the neck step in with the armor traits and replace it. But since the weapon gave so much and the neck gives nothing but stats and uninteresting and passive power the whole system has fallen way flatter on its face. As you leveled weapons you felt progression and gained things. The neck is just a number that raises other numbers that allows you to click on a circle every few levels if you are lucky and most the circle clicks are uninteresting and something you just look up and pick based on the current balance pass.

The neck is just the cheaper version of the weapon and it shows. Of course I am also comparing the maxed out weapon I had in Legion with what is most likely the worse version of the neck and armor for this expansion since we are talking leveling and 5 man content. The issue is that 5 man content is only going to scale with m+ up so the same uninteresting choices will be around most of the expansion outside of a few others that might release in patches. So they are kind of between a rock and a hard place with these things. But who knows as ilevel increases maybe new rings appear and so on. I guess all we can do is wait and see or bail. I am in the wait and see camp.

[Deleted]

Expected...

Why?

Did you do the beta test? Did you provide the feedback? No.
If everyone would participate, things would be different.

It's like ever since Vanilla, 10% of the testers are actually testing. The 90% is AFKing and doing /dance once in a while.

Sorry, but not sorry for the community.

Countless people raised countless concerns on beta and a vast majority of issues were flat out ignored.

As usual we also hit a wall with the Blizzdrones screaming that it's only beta and to quit if we don't like it, so yeah.

[Rascal Bob]

Frost mage here. Been playing mage since Nighthold. You are doing it wrong. Frost was literally 4 button spec. It was quite fun in NH due to race with icy veins duration, for me at least (been playing surrender 2 madness priest in EN, but since they have nerfed that it has been quite dull and simple.
AoE is now different and instead of orb on CD and spam ice lance with blizzard we are now having to plan more, use couple extra spells, make sure position is right. Burst is insane.
Single target we have 2 new spells in our rotation - comet storm and GS, which makes it better and more fun.
We now actually have talent choices to make, which was not the case in legion, again - better and more fun, as you can do different builds and not suffer on dps.
Chain Reaction was 30% increase + 2 relics, which were not BiS by any means and it is still viable now in m+. It does not sound that you played your frost mage to top performance in Legion, so I don't understand, why you would be worried about some of the talents being not so good now?

I raided Emerald Nightmare to mythic as frost, I was not realm first by any means but that's as high end as it gets I guess. Anyways you chose to play with a 4 button spec, here is a video of someone going over the ray of frost build, the rotation is explained around 6:50. Back then I got my idea for this build from someone else but I cant find that particular video, this video is close to the release of nighthold. It was not for everyone because it was hard to pull off but if you came close to perfection your numbers were insane and at this point in time frost was kinda flying under the radar because it was pretty OP so you would beat way better geared people on boss damage with this build.

Throughout legion people already played glacial spike and ray of frost builds, that's nothing new really. Also Chain reaction got nerfed as of patch 7.1.5 https://www.wowhead.com/spell=195419/chain-reaction you'll see that if you look at the changelog it used to be 20% for each stack. This was done so that the trait wasn't as important to keep up and the spec overall would become more forgiving, in exchange they buffed ice lance damage. In my opinion those kind of changes are kinda meh. Everything that has been done now is make frost easier. I mean AoE rotations are for most classes a joke anyways and it's not hard to play around cometstorm/pet nova and or ice nova, it is fun doing insane AoE damage but I'm a raider and dungeons and AoE comes second to single target.

I agree on fire.
On arcane I have no comment as I was never attracted to it.
What I wanted to say that if anything, frost got better. It's nearly the same, but has couple bits added and I love how we have more than 2 talent set ups now. It's not amazing rework or anything, it is just nice now and I don't agree with OP. Lack of haste is a bit painful, but manageable, I just hate pet
For those who played GS it might be not that different, but again, if you play for the spec, not viability, why would you worry about performance of some talents. It is not terrible or unplayable choice by any means.

The glacial spike spec was I think a solid contender for best or at least close to best frost mage spec during some periods of legion, it was just that most people weren't geared toward it in legion, since it prioritized mastery quite a bit. Maybe for everyone who played the most passive frost mage build throughout legion it feels like an improvement but for me it doesn't, I guess it just depends on what you've played and if you enjoyed the use of Rune of Power. But you are right frost is not in a terrible state, I did not try to make it look like it but it might've come off that way. There are definitely specs in a worse state out there, all I tried to say with my OP was that frost is dumbed down from the legion version and I don't like to play it as much.

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A bit off topic
Wasn't the tuning patch coming out today or was it tomorrow?

[losmarios]

You actually can't compare classes currently vs. end of Legion.
What you can do is comparing the current state with the start of Legion.

There wasn't any set bonus in EN. There was no netherlight crucible / traits. Classes felt slow and less fun because of missing secondary stats.

This are the same things that we are missing now. There is room for new things, I'm sure this space will be used for some shiny new traits in the coming months.

[Rascal Bob]

Expected...

Why?

Did you do the beta test? Did you provide the feedback? No.
If everyone would participate, things would be different.

It's like ever since Vanilla, 10% of the testers are actually testing. The 90% is AFKing and doing /dance once in a while.

Sorry, but not sorry for the community.

I've applied every beta(didn't do the buy so much game time and get a beta pass thingy) but I never got in, providing feedback while not being in the beta is not really as it should go I think.

You actually can't compare classes currently vs. end of Legion.
What you can do is comparing the current state with the start of Legion.

There wasn't any set bonus in EN. There was no netherlight crucible / traits. Classes felt slow and less fun because of missing secondary stats.

This are the same things that we are missing now. There is room for new things, I'm sure this space will be used for some shiny new traits in the coming months.

Well I'm mostly comparing my frost mage experience from Emerald nightmare which was basically the start of legion without set bonuses but with legendaries and traits and overall for me that felt better, but each spec could've been different I imagine. But the problem mostly is we won't be getting as much of the secondary stats as quick plus we won't be getting set bonuses. And I hope you're right on the shiny traits part, because in Legion we knew all the traits from the get go and now we have no clue about what's to come.