Resto Niche is super strong

[Nyel]

With the new numbers for HW and HS I don't feel like Surge should be spammed in that situation.

Echo, Flash Flood and Undulation in combo with our Mastery means Healing Wave works well to keep Tanks up through heavy damage.

Yeah except it's doesn't... and I am playing a pure Mastery build (ILVL 346 at the moment). I don't see how that can keep a tank alive in M6 or higher and it really doesn't matter if you use HW or HS, both have similar values. In emergency situations the crit chance on a buffed HS is just a lot more reliable than the faster (but slightly stronger) HW. The base value for our spammables is just too low and even with Mastery in a lot of situations it's luck if the tank stays alive or dies (other group members CCing, tank using CDs or self heals etc.). In a group that's playing together for a long time this synergies exist but besides that... I'm very sceptical. You're just spamming Riptide -> HS/HW -> Riptide -> HS/HW -> HS/HW etc. and it barely heals for the damage a tank gets in that situation. Again, maybe all of the healers struggle with this (although I think Monks have the best way to counter it with Enveloping Mist which is incredibly strong with its 40% healing buff on the target).

The thing is, "high" group damage is easier to heal than very high burst damage on the tank imho. The easiest for me to heal are pure melee groups due to Healing Rain / Wellspring etc.

[themaster24]

It's already a slow ticking HoT on the target though.

I think for Resto it just needs a Buff to the Healing Bonus.

Eh, it would have to be one hell of a buff to the healing bonus for me to consider taking it over Echo or Deluge in it's current form. In my experience, it doesn't heal for very much, practically serving as a vessel for the increased healing. This wouldn't be much of an issue if we didn't find ourselves frequently needing to use every GCD to keep someone alive. Spending a GCD to put ES back up so my next heal can be 10% stronger...I could just use riptide and fish for a Surge crit and get more benefit from it. So it becomes a battle of GCD's for when to put ES back up. An alternative would be to remove charges and just make it a buff, you know, kind of like Beacon. There's already a CD for the heal, it really wouldn't be so crazy if they just made it a 30 minute buff. It costs mana to apply, so I'm still punished in that sense if I want to swap it frequently. If it continues to use the charge system, however, I will never go back to using it, because I know they will never make the healing % anything more than 15%.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah except it's doesn't... and I am playing a pure Mastery build (ILVL 346 at the moment). I don't see how that can keep a tank alive in M6 or higher and it really doesn't matter if you use HW or HS, both have similar values. In emergency situations the crit chance on a buffed HS is just a lot more reliable than the faster (but slightly stronger) HW. The base value for our spammables is just too low and even with Mastery in a lot of situations it's luck if the tank stays alive or dies (other group members CCing, tank using CDs or self heals etc.). In a group that's playing together for a long time this synergies exist but besides that... I'm very sceptical. You're just spamming Riptide -> HS/HW -> Riptide -> HS/HW -> HS/HW etc. and it barely heals for the damage a tank gets in that situation. Again, maybe all of the healers struggle with this (although I think Monks have the best way to counter it with Enveloping Mist which is incredibly strong with its 40% healing buff on the target).

The thing is, "high" group damage is easier to heal than very high burst damage on the tank imho. The easiest for me to heal are pure melee groups due to Healing Rain / Wellspring etc.

This is one reason I highly despise our mastery. I understand contextually that it is "strong", but I just don't like it. For one, it has blizz design us around it, which is silly. Our heals shouldn't be made weak, based on that fact that we get a huge boost when they're low. It makes us have a very difficult time topping people off, especially when mastery values are sooooo bad right now. This is why I always preferred stacking crit over mastery. Not only does it bring in more mana regen, but it works with HS/TW (mattered more WoD/BfA than Legion, but still), but once you get to certain levels of crit, despite it being "random", I felt more reliability in it.

In a world where tanks have lost much of their own Active Mitigation and spikey damage, having healing that is dependent on a player being low hp is incredibly poor design. I can get a TW, Undulation Crit HS on a ~10% HP tank, and heal them to ~50%, and they immediately get hit back down to 20-30%. Sure, they're low again, but now I don't have Undulation up for 3 more heals, so even if I get another HS crit, it's only not going to be as effective (a. they aren't as low, b. no 50% buff from undulation). Nothing we have really, truly helps with this, not even talents (closest thing is flash flood with undulation). And heaven forbid you have to deal with that tank situation and anyone else taking serious dmg.

[mkultra55]

Yeah except it's doesn't... and I am playing a pure Mastery build (ILVL 346 at the moment). I don't see how that can keep a tank alive in M6 or higher and it really doesn't matter if you use HW or HS, both have similar values. In emergency situations the crit chance on a buffed HS is just a lot more reliable than the faster (but slightly stronger) HW.....

/shrug. I healed a plus 7 last night and it was fine, Maybe it was my Tank (DH).

I don't know how you can say HS is more reliable than HW BTW. Even under Tidal Waves Surge is only going to be around a 50% chane to crit in current gear.For a Tank under duress I'll choose double HW's in a 5 man instead of a 50/50 dice roll that my heal is going to be strong. It's a different story for a Raid where the duration will smooth out bad luck spikes.

- - - Updated - - -

Eh, it would have to be one hell of a buff to the healing bonus for me to consider taking it over Echo or Deluge....

It would. I'd say as high as a 50% bonus to the target to make up for the GCD spent recasting AND the loss of Echo.

[themaster24]

It would. I'd say as high as a 50% bonus to the target to make up for the GCD spent recasting AND the loss of Echo.

Funny enough, 50% is exactly what I was thinking. If it was say, 20-25%, no charges, and lasted 30 minutes, that would be very compelling as well.

[Deleted]

@shammypie I think you got me a little wrong. I don't hate resto and I play it as a main spec for over 8 years now. The reason why I'm frustrated, is that we haven't really had a big moment to shine in a very long time. Not even on pure stacked fights. And cheesing some bosses with SLT isn't a big moment for me.
I do top the meters in my guild, but barely, and against blue log healers it's not much an achievement. Why can't resto be the most sought after healer for dungeons for once? What is all that great utility really worth, if it doesn't even make a healer desirable for 5 man content? Every spec deserves to be fotm once in a while. It's not a crime to wish that for the spec you've been passionately playing for over 8 years.

As for raids: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../19#metric=hps So early on in progression, resto should do a lot better. I doubt those numbers will change much in mythic mode. I have no problem with having that low of an output in farm raids, but for the first weeks when a raid is out, it should look different.

[Nyel]

/shrug. I healed a plus 7 last night and it was fine, Maybe it was my Tank (DH).

I don't know how you can say HS is more reliable than HW BTW. Even under Tidal Waves Surge is only going to be around a 50% chane to crit in current gear.For a Tank under duress I'll choose double HW's in a 5 man instead of a 50/50 dice roll that my heal is going to be strong. It's a different story for a Raid where the duration will smooth out bad luck spikes.

"Fine"? You never struggled to keep up the tank in a Mythic +7?

Healing Wave is healing for ~ 13% more than Healing Surge. I'd say a ~ 50% crit chance on Healing Surge is in emergency situations better than the marginal higher healing coefficient of Healing Wave. For me, unbuffed and with no Mastery it's:

Healing Surge: 12,2k
Healing Wave: 13,6k

For ten casts this would be:

Healing Surge: 5 crits, 5 non crits = 122k + 61k = 183k
Healing Wave: 2 crits (on a basis of 20% crit chance), 8 non crits = 54,4k + 108,8k = 163,2k

We have to factor in mana cost, mastery, undulation etc. but why should Tidal Waves Healing Wave be better in emergency situations than Tidal Waves Healing Surge?

[this is caranthir]

We have to factor in mana cost, mastery, undulation etc. but why should Tidal Waves Healing Wave be better in emergency situations than Tidal Waves Healing Surge?

No idea where he is coming from, when the tank is in trouble I always spam riptide / HS, which is honestly very boring.
Often I don't have time to waste a GCD to even put down a totem or the tank dies.

[mkultra55]

"Fine"? You never struggled to keep up the tank in a Mythic +7?

Healing Wave is healing for ~ 13% more than Healing Surge. I'd say a ~ 50% crit chance on Healing Surge is in emergency situations better than the marginal higher healing coefficient of Healing Wave. For me, unbuffed and with no Mastery it's:

Healing Surge: 12,2k
Healing Wave: 13,6k

For ten casts this would be:

Healing Surge: 5 crits, 5 non crits = 122k + 61k = 183k
Healing Wave: 2 crits (on a basis of 20% crit chance), 8 non crits = 54,4k + 108,8k = 163,2k

We have to factor in mana cost, mastery, undulation etc. but why should Tidal Waves Healing Wave be better in emergency situations than Tidal Waves Healing Surge?

Holy crap chill out. Fine doesn't mean easy. I think I've been clear that we need some Buffs

I said it was a DH Tank which likely factored heavily into the equation since they're arguably the strongest M+Tank out there right now. They're self healing goes a long way toward helping them stay alive. It was fine to me but maybe it wouldn't have been fine to you.

Play the way you want. I prefer Healing Wave because I know what each button press is likely to do. I've never liked Crit as a healer since it isn't reliable. When HS and HW had the same output but different Mana costs it felt less punitive using HS to me.

- - - Updated - - -

No idea where he is coming from, when the tank is in trouble I always spam riptide / HS, which is honestly very boring.
Often I don't have time to waste a GCD to even put down a totem or the tank dies.

You shouldn't spam HS when you take Flash Flood since the cast time reduction drops HS below the GCD.

[this is caranthir]

Holy crap chill out. Fine doesn't mean easy. I think I've been clear that we need some Buffs

I said it was a DH Tank which likely factored heavily into the equation since they're arguably the strongest M+Tank out there right now. They're self healing goes a long way toward helping them stay alive. It was fine to me but maybe it wouldn't have been fine to you.

Play the way you want. I prefer Healing Wave because I know what each button press is likely to do. I've never liked Crit as a healer since it isn't reliable. When HS and HW had the same output but different Mana costs it felt less punitive using HS to me.

- - - Updated - - -


You shouldn't spam HS when you take Flash Flood since the cast time reduction drops HS below the GCD.

and where did I sai that?

Sent from my BLA-L29 using Tapatalk

[Nyel]

Holy crap chill out. Fine doesn't mean easy. I think I've been clear that we need some Buffs

I said it was a DH Tank which likely factored heavily into the equation since they're arguably the strongest M+Tank out there right now. They're self healing goes a long way toward helping them stay alive. It was fine to me but maybe it wouldn't have been fine to you.

Play the way you want. I prefer Healing Wave because I know what each button press is likely to do. I've never liked Crit as a healer since it isn't reliable. When HS and HW had the same output but different Mana costs it felt less punitive using HS to me.

Chill out? I just did a quick calculation and tried to understand why you favour x while I favour y, nothing else. Based on my calculation (which is fairly simple) the amount of healing (both Tidal Wave buffed) per Healing Surge is 18,3k (1,4s cast time) whereas it's 16,3k for Healing Wave (1,6s cast time); Healing Surge costs more than twice the mana though.

I play the way I want, I just wanted to understand your motivation to prefer Healing Wave in emergency situations when the healing amount is marginally more than for Healing Surge, that's all. I don't even want to correct you or act like I'm knowing better, I'm just interested in other's playstyles.

Oh and I played with Pala tanks and - from my healing standpoint - they're pretty damage-sensitive (but they're talented healing skill is impressive, healing for up to 100k on a tiny CD).

[xintoc]

Leveled a monk and a shaman. Played both healing specs in raid with 340+ item level.
Shaman has about 5k hps less than a monk or a holy priest. Healing feels extremely weak in dungeons as well. First I thought that there was some scaling issue with artifact traits or gear, but now it's just disappointing.

[zenyatta]

If it's a raid ST healing fight, i.e. blanket AoEing isn't as important as keeping a randomly selected 3 - 4 ppl up, or keeping the tanks up, would it not be smarter to utilise HW vs HS with TW stacks?
If we assume a 5 min fight w Echo talent, I'd imagine the HS spam would run us dry pretty quick, as opposed to HW when consuming TW stacks and HS to fill in if we don't have a TW stack and need a heal out right now. Would trying to evenly weave them be better? Alternate using them with TW stacks?

I dunno, I got reprimanded by a non-healer for not using HS over HW even though we had 3 other healers that could very well have been part of why we weren't healing through DoTs very well. But it totally crushed my confidence in what I was doing. So now I'm trying to find a general consensus, but there doesn't seem to be one?

[Roxxy]

Leveled a monk and a shaman. Played both healing specs in raid with 340+ item level.
Shaman has about 5k hps less than a monk or a holy priest. Healing feels extremely weak in dungeons as well. First I thought that there was some scaling issue with artifact traits or gear, but now it's just disappointing.

Can confirm. I leveled both a holy priest and a resto shaman and holy priest is doing so much more healing it's unfunny. Atm my shaman is being allowed to heal because of 'utility' ie: spirit link totem.

[Raakel]

True. My Resto Shamen has to spam spells like a Druid now which is exactly what I hate about Druid healing.... Feels bad.

[Nyel]

If it's a raid ST healing fight, i.e. blanket AoEing isn't as important as keeping a randomly selected 3 - 4 ppl up, or keeping the tanks up, would it not be smarter to utilise HW vs HS with TW stacks?
If we assume a 5 min fight w Echo talent, I'd imagine the HS spam would run us dry pretty quick...

Sure, who said something different? In a raid I'd barely use Healing Surge, if ever. You shouldn't take advide from "non-healers" all too serious. I mean you can spam and use Healing Surge in a raid but I don't see the point: there are other, much better ST healers than we and if it's not an "emergency situation" Healing Wave is the better choice.

- - - Updated - - -

Can confirm. I leveled both a holy priest and a resto shaman and holy priest is doing so much more healing it's unfunny. Atm my shaman is being allowed to heal because of 'utility' ie: spirit link totem.

I honestly don't know if Holy Priest right now is in a better state (for raids). Holy Word: Sanctify is incredibly strong, so is their new 12m CD. I envy them for their super strong Holy Word: Serenity (critting for up to 100k or more) in Mythic+ but that's it. I don't find my Holy Priest to be better than my Resto Shaman. Haven't played Priest in raids yet.

[shammypie]

Leveled a monk and a shaman. Played both healing specs in raid with 340+ item level.
Shaman has about 5k hps less than a monk or a holy priest. Healing feels extremely weak in dungeons as well. First I thought that there was some scaling issue with artifact traits or gear, but now it's just disappointing.

that's funny because no one can stand up to my shaman in raids right now with all the damage going out. Especially in long fights where people can't manage mana properyl. what are you pulling?

[Nyel]

that's funny because no one can stand up to my shaman in raids right now with all the damage going out. Especially in long fights where people can't manage mana properyl. what are you pulling?

Every proper Druid and Monk can beat Shaman in the healmeters if they really want to. We're not bad, I'd say in raids we're pretty good, but we're definitely not better than those two if there would be a "race for HPS". If we can make use of a permanent six target Healing Rain (which makes Downpour a great choice as well) that's a huge push but if we can't Chain Heal feels fairly weak in comparison imho. And mana issues are a thing as well because we don't have Innervate or Mana Tea or any other options than Resurgence. And HTT is pretty much a joke right now (granted, Monk's Revival isn't better either).

[bigsav1]

that's funny because no one can stand up to my shaman in raids right now with all the damage going out. Especially in long fights where people can't manage mana properyl. what are you pulling?

Sounds like you're playing with bads. I've main resto shaman since vanilla and I'm now leveling a monk because we are just garbage right now. Anyone saying we're op are being dishonest.

[Deleted]

Sounds like you're playing with bads. I've main resto shaman since vanilla and I'm now leveling a monk because we are just garbage right now. Anyone saying we're op are being dishonest.

This is true. People shouldn't claim that resto is super powerful, just because they can beat the bad healer colleagues in their raids. The logs don't lie. Method ranked resto as the 2nd weakest healer, too. Do people honestly think, just because they raid with baddies, it puts them in a position to objectively judge the overall performance of a whole spec? Sites like warcraftlogs exist for a reason, to show averages, how specs do compared to others. And resto is 20% behind the top, no matter how good and "fun" the spec feels to some.

To be honest, years ago I used to think I'm the shit, too. I topped meters by a mile in every raid, even though resto wasn't considered strong. I got praised a lot. Then I changed guilds and raided with healers who actually knew how to play their specs, too and it gave me another perspective.

I'm curious to see, if there will be resto representation in the mythic first kills. If there aren't mechanics to cheese with slt, I doubt it at the moment.

[Deleted]

It will be fun when mythic uldir releases.

as I wont be doing mythic raiding, it doesn't concern me.