Outlaw in need of help

[Bloodronin4life]

Hello everyone. I recently switched to outlaw and I am doing terrible deeps. I am summed at 12k dps, however I am averaging 8k on the target dummy.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...4ScSD934jNRWnH

I imagine it is for sure my rotation. I tried reading up and have different sites contradict themselves. Any suggestions? I only have 1 trait of deadshot. Should I still be using between the eyes on CD without shark buff?
Is vigor worth losing MoD?

[Biomega]

First of all, you need to understand what Simcraft is for - not to give you 100% accurate target dummy data, or any sort of absolute value, really; but to give you a RELATIVE comparison as basis for certain choices.

This means that you do NOT use Simcraft to go "Simcraft is saying I should be doing 12k dps on a boss, but I'm only doing 10k". What you should instead be using it for are things like "Should I use Trinket A or should I use Trinket B instead? Well I guess Simcraft says I do 2.5% more DPS with Trinket B, so that's what I will pick." Don't compare Simcraft to target dummy dps especially, because most Simcraft profiles tend to be set up for raid environments, which includes extraneous buffs etc. you will not have while solo. It also collates a huge number of iterations, which with Outlaw especially is very needed to even out the results from RtB's randomness. Unless you plan to sit on a target dummy for the next two days non-stop, don't trust the accuracy of such "results".

Furthermore, Simcraft is "stupid" in a sense, because it can only simulate fairly simple models. Real fights, however, involve a lot of variables like fight mechanics, numbers of enemies, etc. For Outlaw especially this is extremely important. Outlaw's big strength is Blade Flurry, and so naturally using that ability smartly will contribute a significant portion of your DPS in many fights (and, consequently, you won't do as well on pure single-target fights). Planning ahead and timing your use of Blade Flurry and Blade Rush is critical for good DPS, and Simcraft can't really model that all too well.

What you COULD use Simcraft for is answering your BtE question. It's hard to make a general recommendation because things can vary with stats, so try and sim without BtE (except for sharky) and with BtE on cooldown, and then compare the results.

I'm not sure what resources you are using that have contradictory rotation advice. Outlaw has an exceedingly simple rotation, and is defined mainly by smart use of BF/BR for cleave damage. The rest is fairly straightforward, use-on-cooldown behavior. Even RtB has a very simple reroll logic now (keep Ruthless Precision or Grand Melee or any 2 buffs; reroll otherwise). Is there something particular aside from the BtE thing that is confusing you?

[Halyon]

I honestly think Outlaw should be a tank spec. That would be awesome.

[Biomega]

Perhaps that would help with the dearth of tanks currently plaguing LFG. And while they're at it, make Demo locks into tanks, too.

But honestly, it's just not going to happen.

[nalle]

I honestly think Outlaw should be a tank spec. That would be awesome.

The Swashbuckler!

I like Outlaw they way it is atm, just that RtB will always be random which will make the dps random.

[Bloodronin4life]

First of all, you need to understand what Simcraft is for - not to give you 100% accurate target dummy data, or any sort of absolute value, really; but to give you a RELATIVE comparison as basis for certain choices.

This means that you do NOT use Simcraft to go "Simcraft is saying I should be doing 12k dps on a boss, but I'm only doing 10k". What you should instead be using it for are things like "Should I use Trinket A or should I use Trinket B instead? Well I guess Simcraft says I do 2.5% more DPS with Trinket B, so that's what I will pick." Don't compare Simcraft to target dummy dps especially, because most Simcraft profiles tend to be set up for raid environments, which includes extraneous buffs etc. you will not have while solo. It also collates a huge number of iterations, which with Outlaw especially is very needed to even out the results from RtB's randomness. Unless you plan to sit on a target dummy for the next two days non-stop, don't trust the accuracy of such "results".

Furthermore, Simcraft is "stupid" in a sense, because it can only simulate fairly simple models. Real fights, however, involve a lot of variables like fight mechanics, numbers of enemies, etc. For Outlaw especially this is extremely important. Outlaw's big strength is Blade Flurry, and so naturally using that ability smartly will contribute a significant portion of your DPS in many fights (and, consequently, you won't do as well on pure single-target fights). Planning ahead and timing your use of Blade Flurry and Blade Rush is critical for good DPS, and Simcraft can't really model that all too well.

What you COULD use Simcraft for is answering your BtE question. It's hard to make a general recommendation because things can vary with stats, so try and sim without BtE (except for sharky) and with BtE on cooldown, and then compare the results.

I'm not sure what resources you are using that have contradictory rotation advice. Outlaw has an exceedingly simple rotation, and is defined mainly by smart use of BF/BR for cleave damage. The rest is fairly straightforward, use-on-cooldown behavior. Even RtB has a very simple reroll logic now (keep Ruthless Precision or Grand Melee or any 2 buffs; reroll otherwise). Is there something particular aside from the BtE thing that is confusing you?

Thank you for the informative reply. I guess more specifically I saw a couple YouTube videos and I read on a couple different sites that a you should use between the eyes regardless of how much your crib chances and regardless of what Buffs you have if you have at least two of the Deadshot trait. Even even to the point where it takes priority over top of every rolling but then I also saw that you should only use between the eyes when you have the shark buff regardless of what treats you have. It's also I'm just not used to Outlaw I think I've been playing Sub in assassination for very long time so it feels a lot different but it is definitely fun.

[Eleccybubb]

The Swashbuckler!

I like Outlaw they way it is atm, just that RtB will always be random which will make the dps random.

That's why I use Slice and Dice.

[Biomega]

Thank you for the informative reply. I guess more specifically I saw a couple YouTube videos and I read on a couple different sites that a you should use between the eyes regardless of how much your crib chances and regardless of what Buffs you have if you have at least two of the Deadshot trait. Even even to the point where it takes priority over top of every rolling but then I also saw that you should only use between the eyes when you have the shark buff regardless of what treats you have. It's also I'm just not used to Outlaw I think I've been playing Sub in assassination for very long time so it feels a lot different but it is definitely fun.

Yes, the general consensus seems to be to use BtE if you have Ruthless Precision up, or if you have 2+ Deadshot Traits (or both, obviously). With 1 Trait it might be worth it depending on your crit chance, but given current gear levels it's probably unlikely.

But keep in mind that all this is information based on current research; people may very well refine the models they're using in the future, and arrive at different results. Things are always changing fairly rapidly early on in an expansion.

[Kaver]

Hello everyone. I recently switched to outlaw and I am doing terrible deeps. I am summed at 12k dps, however I am averaging 8k on the target dummy.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...4ScSD934jNRWnH

I imagine it is for sure my rotation. I tried reading up and have different sites contradict themselves. Any suggestions? I only have 1 trait of deadshot. Should I still be using between the eyes on CD without shark buff?
Is vigor worth losing MoD?

Are you using Flask, Food, Pots and Hero when you test on the target dummy?

[Deleted]

@Biomega with 2+ deadshot traits, you reroll grand melee buff too.

[Biomega]

@Biomega with 2+ deadshot traits, you reroll grand melee buff too.

That's good to know!

And exactly what I'm talking about - people are still in the process of perfecting things, and new information like this comes up all the time.

[Sephiroso]

That's good to know!

And exactly what I'm talking about - people are still in the process of perfecting things, and new information like this comes up all the time.

Any information you need to know is in the ravenholdt discord.

[glowpipe]

That's why I use Slice and Dice.

How big of a dps loss is SnD atm ? I was all over the place in Normal uldir last night. Mother i did 12k dps and had orange parse. Taloc was like 7k and i felt someone was laughing at me. But i played both fights more or less the same. Well, not fights but rotation

[Cringers]

I would also like to know the difference in dps loss in Slice and Dice i hate RtB also

[Sephiroso]

How big of a dps loss is SnD atm ? I was all over the place in Normal uldir last night. Mother i did 12k dps and had orange parse. Taloc was like 7k and i felt someone was laughing at me. But i played both fights more or less the same. Well, not fights but rotation

Mother is a lot more tank and spank than Taloc is. Not sure why you're surprised at the difference in damage.

- - - Updated - - -

I would also like to know the difference in dps loss in Slice and Dice i hate RtB also

Then sim it?

[Garnier Fructis]

How big of a dps loss is SnD atm ? I was all over the place in Normal uldir last night. Mother i did 12k dps and had orange parse. Taloc was like 7k and i felt someone was laughing at me. But i played both fights more or less the same. Well, not fights but rotation

Instead of comparing your dps across fights, compare your performance relative to your guild mates. Like are you going from top of the pack to bottom of the pack?

[glowpipe]

Mother is a lot more tank and spank than Taloc is. Not sure why you're surprised at the difference in damage.

I was on taloc's ass almost the entire fight. But it doesn't really matter. Rtb will be different no matter what. I was really lucky on the rolls. i had 2 5 rolls in a row. So i guess i spent my entire roll budget this tier on that fight

- - - Updated - - -

Instead of comparing your dps across fights, compare your performance relative to your guild mates. Like are you going from top of the pack to bottom of the pack?

Yeah. Their dps remained more or less the same on different fights. Not counting aoe fights, cause outlaw seems a bit broken there, but ST fights all where fairly steady. While i was all over the place.

But im just gonna try SnD and see how that works out

[Aluren]

I would also like to know the difference in dps loss in Slice and Dice i hate RtB also

Can't remember the exact numbers but even using RtB but never re-rolling beats SnD at the moment.

[Boil]

That's why I use Slice and Dice.

How big of a dps loss is SnD atm ? I was all over the place in Normal uldir last night. Mother i did 12k dps and had orange parse. Taloc was like 7k and i felt someone was laughing at me. But i played both fights more or less the same. Well, not fights but rotation

I would also like to know the difference in dps loss in Slice and Dice i hate RtB also

Can't remember the exact numbers but even using RtB but never re-rolling beats SnD at the moment.

I think Blizz realizes that we don't really like Outlaw & would rather go BACK to Combat, so they are doing their best to make sure that RtB will always be better than SnD (because they realize the 'class fantasy' of Outlaw is stupid & someone effed up by creating it)...

[Sephiroso]

I was on taloc's ass almost the entire fight. But it doesn't really matter. Rtb will be different no matter what. I was really lucky on the rolls. i had 2 5 rolls in a row. So i guess i spent my entire roll budget this tier on that fight

- - - Updated - - -


Yeah. Their dps remained more or less the same on different fights. Not counting aoe fights, cause outlaw seems a bit broken there, but ST fights all where fairly steady. While i was all over the place.

But im just gonna try SnD and see how that works out

if your dps is all over the place then you're doing something wrong. It isn't the spec, it's your inability to play the spec as it should be played that's the cause.