The "Blizzard A team and B team" discussion

[vertigo12]

But they do come up with the things. They do get the idea's. Meaning the alliance team sucks. Because if they think new mounts mean 4 new horses..then they are so bad at their job. They are the ones comming up with idea's and then make them.


Yup, and they also should have seen it. And no, because you are saying here that team horde got more time. Because if both teams go the same time, both teams should have given epic work. But alliance team has MANY cop outs and weak design choices. That either means they had less times or worse idea's.



Yes, and it is. if you give 1 faction 3 new mounts and the other 3 horses ( news flash we already have 43 horse ingame)...then yeah they are lazy. If i give feedback in beta about many broken things and they are still ingame...they are lazy.



Yup, but still means i can have one ( a opinion). And it still stands...they are lazy.


...are you for real...z-trolls get new forms and texture's for each druid form. For kul tirans they use the same form they have and 1 texture.
For mounts the make new ones ( with new texture's) for the horde, for the alliance you get horses 44,45 and 46.
etc etc etc.
I can not know how much time is spent indeed. But if you look at ALL of the differences between alliance and horde you clearly see a big difference.
You are trying here to make it sound just because they might have done a bit more work on Dark iron dwarfs it makes up for the rest.



Depends if the movie got it from ILM and it sucks...then its low effort. If its from a new studio its high effort.
And that is my point. It seems that horde got ILM, and we got bad CGI company 1001.
But seeing as it is in the same game from the same company you could expect a result that is closer then it is now.
So you just made my point for me.


Are you new to blizzard games?
They have pushed back stuff because it was not ready, or just removed it from their test runs. And again its not a 1 person making a alliance or horde thing. Its a whole group. Its a concept artist, model maker, texture designer, quest maker, team lead etc etc. And again this does not explain why the horde got overall better stuff then the alliance.
And i never said they did it on purpose with some nefarious thoughts. I just say they are lazy.


It is lazy.
again look at the difference between the horde and alliance new mounts, quests, druid forms you really see a difference.
If they work for the same company, they will have the same resources, time, money etc etc.
So only 2 things that can be different is how much effort they put in. And their choices. And you can not tell me a game maker that pride's itself on pacthes for balancing stuff does not balance stuff.
So it comes down to them being lazy.

And i might not be a game maker. But i have graphic desgin background in marketing, and i modded a lot for myself ( and some friends) for fallout and tes games. So i know the difference between making a new model or texture.

Come to think of it, they did a great job in warfront armor designs and pvp gears for alliance. I'd keep my hands tied and let others rant about Ulduar armor design and weapon with too much generic color scheme.

[Thimagryn]

But they do come up with the things. They do get the idea's. Meaning the alliance team sucks. Because if they think new mounts mean 4 new horses..then they are so bad at their job. They are the ones comming up with idea's and then make them.

Hmm, so you think there's a Horde team and an Alliance team. Interesting.

Is this based on any information other than assumption? I've not heard of this Alliance team in any sources if not, so I can't really make a comment on it.

Yup, and they also should have seen it. And no, because you are saying here that team horde got more time. Because if both teams go the same time, both teams should have given epic work. But alliance team has MANY cop outs and weak design choices. That either means they had less times or worse idea's.

Again, your assumption is based on a bias generated by 'Alliance team' and 'Horde team' within development. Have you not considered that the same team of designers are tackling all at the same time, as well as dividing tasks on an individual basis and not coming up with ideas in parallel of each other in some competitive level? I mean we're talking about race design here, not the Alliance/Horde motorcycle competition.

Yes, and it is. if you give 1 faction 3 new mounts and the other 3 horses ( news flash we already have 43 horse ingame)...then yeah they are lazy. If i give feedback in beta about many broken things and they are still ingame...they are lazy.

Yup, but still means i can have one ( a opinion). And it still stands...they are lazy.

Opinions can be wrong too, especially if stated as an objective fact based solely on observation and assumption. There are people with opinions that the Earth is flat, and they're free to make that opinion. Openly stating it as opinion does not free them from criticism.

Are you new to blizzard games?
They have pushed back stuff because it was not ready, or just removed it from their test runs. And again its not a 1 person making a alliance or horde thing. Its a whole group. Its a concept artist, model maker, texture designer, quest maker, team lead etc etc. And again this does not explain why the horde got overall better stuff then the alliance.
And i never said they did it on purpose with some nefarious thoughts. I just say they are lazy.


It is lazy.
again look at the difference between the horde and alliance new mounts, quests, druid forms you really see a difference.
If they work for the same company, they will have the same resources, time, money etc etc.
So only 2 things that can be different is how much effort they put in. And their choices. And you can not tell me a game maker that pride's itself on pacthes for balancing stuff does not balance stuff.
So it comes down to them being lazy.

And i might not be a game maker. But i have graphic desgin background in marketing, and i modded a lot for myself ( and some friends) for fallout and tes games. So i know the difference between making a new model or texture.

I'm a modder too. I also work in the industry. They're not the same thing. You might think graphic design is equivalent to updating graphics. Yes, it's very easy to do. If I wanted to, I could make the death animations in SC2 10x gorier and flashier than they already are, and add physics to each and every unit that dies having their bodies roll around on impact instead of 'fading through the floor'.

The difference is when you're in a company as big as Blizzard, everything you do is structured. You work in graphic design. I can't speak of how your workflow and pipeline are, but I don't know how applicable it is to 3D or to a structured working environment where all your work is carefully deconstructed by multiple non-art related sources. It's not as easy as putting particle flame beards for Dark Irons in the game because it's a cool idea and they can do it. There's technical concerns, there's design concerns, there's managerial concerns, and it goes up all the way to an executive who (for example) happens to take a look at beards with flames around their neck and think 'That looks too dangerous, I don't like it, take it out'.

A modder doesn't have to care about that. I do whatever I want even if it means breaking someone's shitty computer when they try to load my map on their potato. It's an incomparable situation that's not even worth comparing or mentioning.

You think the horses for Kul Tirans are shit in comparison. I agree. But I also think Dark Iron mounts look better than most of the Horde mount options. Maybe you don't agree and think all Alliance mounts are bad. However the amount of effort I've seen put in to Dark Iron mounts tells me there's more to it than just the developers being lazy.

Also I wasn't too sure what you were talking about with the 1-texture for Kul Tirans considering they're not even playable yet, so I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean their Druid forms don't have color tints? That their human forms don't have different textures? I'd wait until they are unlocked before making that judgement.

All in all, I think your issue is that one faction has stuff you like more than another faction, and you are frustrated over the lack of equity. You're looking for something/someone to blame, so the obvious thing you equate it to in your own experience is laziness. I totally get it. I just think you need to figure out your feelings before trying to defend your opinion using personal experiences as vital insight on something you really have no inside knowledge of. It just sounds like you're making conclusions without considering any facts.

[HitRefresh]

There is a single big group that works on WoW but the sub groups do not communicate with each other.

A good example is how buggy PVP released with UI errors.

That literally does nothing with the discussion though. Of course different disciplines are going to be separate.

[korijenkins]

The only non-failed system of this expansion so far is World PvP. Azerite gear is a failure. Expeditions are a failure. And to me, warfronts are a failure because I play Horde and can't even do them because of a stupid timegate. The Dueler's guild is a total colossal epic failure. The questing was average. The story is fine, but those are the easiest things to get right.

Who cares if the game is pretty or has a good story if the gameplay is a steaming pile of wet shit?

[baskev]

Come to think of it, they did a great job in warfront armor designs and pvp gears for alliance. I'd keep my hands tied and let others rant about Ulduar armor design and weapon with too much generic color scheme.

yup those look nice.

Do not get me wrong its not 100% crap.

[The Stormbringer]

I refer to b team as the D3 team that obviously swept over WoW , I mean world of diablocraft cannot possibly be a coincidence can it? I don't think any of the original devs that had a passion for the game to be designed as FUN work at blizz anymore or at least aren't calling the shots. We aren't even taking steps forward anymore, it's just more steps back each xpac since legion. 2 legions in a row.. we'll see if they finally add new abilities and class/race (not this reskin bullshit) next xpac.

Hell they've gotten so bad they don't even release major expansion features on launch anymore. Every little thing needs to be gated. Lol.

Notice they are slowing EVERYTHING down, making shit take forever, like they are preparing us for the fucking classic launch or some dumb shit. Now can you release the content that should have been available from day 1 cuz we're all bored to fuck with world quests.

To me it looks like they're either preparing for the death/stagnation of WoW making everything take forever or preparing something huge like a new game. I don't see any other logical reason for such a change in attitude from these devs other than to annoy the fuck outta your playerbase..

I wish it was more like Diablo 3. In Diablo 3, I can have a fun time punching a monster and sending it flying, exploding two dozen beasties at once, going on a 200+ killing spree and getting a big fat reward out of it, running into random and worthwhile treasure that makes me go into a mad scramble and ignore everything else, customize my abilities to what I find most fun to a much greater degree, and give me ways to flesh out and expand upon that specific playstyle through effort and farming.

[baskev]

Hmm, so you think there's a Horde team and an Alliance team. Interesting.

Is this based on any information other than assumption? I've not heard of this Alliance team in any sources if not, so I can't really make a comment on it.

There is. There was recenlty a interview with some one. Ill try to find it again. It was a (former?) employer. Who talk about how the horde dev team had a lot of idea's for allied races. But the alliance one did not.

Again, your assumption is based on a bias generated by 'Alliance team' and 'Horde team' within development. Have you not considered that the same team of designers are tackling all at the same time, as well as dividing tasks on an individual basis and not coming up with ideas in parallel of each other in some competitive level? I mean we're talking about race design here, not the Alliance/Horde motorcycle competition.

I am not just talking about race design. I am talking about everything BFA so far. You see way more effort in side. And again if its 2 teams that means 1 team is lazy.
If its 1 big team...then its horde favortism. Because if you look a quest quality, mounts, allied races, etc etc etc its horde horde horde.
The only 2 things i think the alliance is better in: Pvp Armor and the zones feel more...as 1 country.

Lazy as in you reading stuff .
They are lazy or biased...you pick

Opinions can be wrong too, especially if stated as an objective fact based solely on observation and assumption. There are people with opinions that the Earth is flat, and they're free to make that opinion. Openly stating it as opinion does not free them from criticism.

They can not. THe facts they are based on can be wrong. But a opinion is a feeling about a subject.
The earth is flat...fact wise that is wrong. But its his opinion that its flat. His opinion is right, because its how he Feels about it.
Nope it does not free him from criticism. You can talk about how his facts are wrong etc.

I'm a modder too. I also work in the industry. They're not the same thing. You might think graphic design is equivalent to updating graphics. Yes, it's very easy to do. If I wanted to, I could make the death animations in SC2 10x gorier and flashier than they already are, and add physics to each and every unit that dies having their bodies roll around on impact instead of 'fading through the floor'.

Then you should know that changing a color on a unit is way simpler then per example making new models or what you just described.
And that is my whole point. The zerg got their colors changed and you made new models, animations , physics for the protoss...I would guess the last one takes way more time to do. And resources.

The difference is when you're in a company as big as Blizzard, everything you do is structured. You work in graphic design. I can't speak of how your workflow and pipeline are, but I don't know how applicable it is to 3D or to a structured working environment where all your work is carefully deconstructed by multiple non-art related sources. It's not as easy as putting particle flame beards for Dark Irons in the game because it's a cool idea and they can do it. There's technical concerns, there's design concerns, there's managerial concerns, and it goes up all the way to an executive who (for example) happens to take a look at beards with flames around their neck and think 'That looks too dangerous, I don't like it, take it out'.

Yup , and what does that say about the difference between factions??
Either they want the alliance not to have cool/time put in stuff, or there biased or if its 2 teams 1 of the is lazy. You can say what you want but there is to big of a difference between the factions right now.

A modder doesn't have to care about that. I do whatever I want even if it means breaking someone's shitty computer when they try to load my map on their potato. It's an incomparable situation that's not even worth comparing or mentioning.

It is in bit. I do not mean that i know the work load of them. But i do know what it takes to do somethings.
And if you look at the alliance most of the work is copy and past or lazy texture changes.

You think the horses for Kul Tirans are shit in comparison. I agree. But I also think Dark Iron mounts look better than most of the Horde mount options. Maybe you don't agree and think all Alliance mounts are bad. However the amount of effort I've seen put in to Dark Iron mounts tells me there's more to it than just the developers being lazy.

Nope i think Dark irons are cool. i think most ( not all) of the choices and work in the alliance side is weak at best. Like i said somewhere above. There are some other nice things. But overall the horde got better, more worked on stuff.
I am not a autistic person i do not think in absolutes.

Also I wasn't too sure what you were talking about with the 1-texture for Kul Tirans considering they're not even playable yet, so I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean their Druid forms don't have color tints? That their human forms don't have different textures? I'd wait until they are unlocked before making that judgement.

Druid forms.
They have 1 texture ( same beak, same legs, same color) only difference is that they stretched them out to fit the form.
Horde got several different dino's with different skin, colors etc on new models (wireframe models).
Alliance got 1 skin with the same look, color , texture map etc on old models ( wireframe models).

If you fed the kul tiran cat form to much meat it would look like a kul tiran bear form. Its like a slimfast commercial a before and after .

All in all, I think your issue is that one faction has stuff you like more than another faction, and you are frustrated over the lack of equity.

Yes and no. I do not think we need to be equal. But after years of horde focussed expansions. Unbalanced racials that caused a good portion of raiders to go to the horde. A split that is not where near 50/50 is indeed bugging to crap out of me. It does not need to be 50/50. 70/30 in favor for the horde is also good. But its not even close to that.

You're looking for something/someone to blame, so the obvious thing you equate it to in your own experience is laziness. I totally get it.

If there is 2 dev teams or 1. The difference can not be explained other then them being lazy, baised or just bad. And i do not look i know who to blame. I do not want them to listen to us all the time. But if we give feedback it would be nice if the listen to it. And i know who to blame because they made the game and choices how things look/go out.

I just think you need to figure out your feelings before trying to defend your opinion using personal experiences as vital insight on something you really have no inside knowledge of. It just sounds like you're making conclusions without considering any facts.

I am not saying that i know about how developing a game works. But i do know what effort goes into 1 thing vs the other. You are trying to side step/ignore that. I am not making conclusions without facts.
I have said it before. If 1 side gets retextures and 1 side gets retextures + new models + etc etc etc. Its clear that 1 side gets more work done on them.

[Ticj]

Blizz said that they work on 2 XP in advance + the current one. I mean they will have seperate people working on different expansions right?

I mean, I'm talking out of my ass here, but when they say 2 x-packs in advance, it is more than likely that they have zone designers/art working on the next expansions zones well in advance, but actual in game systems probably dont get worked on until MUCH later.

[vertigo12]

I mean, I'm talking out of my ass here, but when they say 2 x-packs in advance, it is more than likely that they have zone designers/art working on the next expansions zones well in advance, but actual in game systems probably dont get worked on until MUCH later.

They do have a modular approach and they share common assets. There are compartmentalized approach as to how a zone turns out first.

From there a level designer or quest design team works with lore team. Lore team too gives feed back on zone design. There are existing background resources they do have from their library and they too ask senior designer who worked on existing assets previously. However lore team closely work with the lead design as well as the s

There is a different group who works on armor/weapon design , then there is also a team team on raid design and encounter. Actually it's very busy among different teams exchanging info, adjustments, update, scrapped content, and cross feedback.

There might be an A group working on major content and there's a B group working on future content for the patch cycles. They usually do rotations and at times they swap team composition. Try to read the game manual and you will have an idea how huge the team is who are working on an expac.

Everything starts out with rough drafting and conceptualization, implementations, adjustments, polishing and finish touches; game testing then last bug fixes or correction.

[Ticj]

They do have a modular approach and they share common assets. There are compartmentalized approach as to how a zone turns out first.

From there a level designer or quest design team works with lore team. Lore team too gives feed back on zone design. There are existing background resources they do have from their library and they too ask senior designer who worked on existing assets previously. However lore team closely work with the lead design as well as the s

There is a different group who works on armor/weapon design , then there is also a team team on raid design and encounter. Actually it's very busy among different teams exchanging info, adjustments, update, scrapped content, and cross feedback.

There might be an A group working on major content and there's a B group working on future content for the patch cycles. They usually do rotations and at times they swap team composition. Try to read the game manual and you will have an idea how huge the team is who are working on an expac.

Everything starts out with rough drafting and conceptualization, implementations, adjustments, polishing and finish touches; game testing then last bug fixes or correction.

Yeah, like I"m saying, the art and general story for the next expansion probably starts getting worked on really early (I wouldn't be surprised if they have a team working on it now) but systems work with other features I doubt is getting much thought already.

[Relapses]

Even as somebody who has been fairly harsh to Blizzard for their game design decision making, I wouldn't for a second believe they have anybody other than the best people working in their respective roles within the company. I do believe the game has lost some of its polish -- especially recently -- but I'm of the belief much of this is a result of upper management (read: investor relations) shitting the bed and demanding focus on iterative content over quality content.

[Socialhealer]

Isn't this the C team? because they're a bunch of cunts.

[lol]

Looking like the D team is working on BFA lol

[k8e]

It's F Troop.

[Celarent]

Jay Wilson comes to mind but beyond that i really dont think i've heard of any bad eggs. Sure there are those that people love to hate because "THEY NURF SHADOW PREEST" but from a sane persons pov i really only think i can name that one.

Again, it's easy to think only of highly visible or executive leadership, when there are directors and managers all the way down and across who still need to work with each other. So while someone like a Wilson or Street or Chilton or Haz assumes responsibility for design, and may set a tone or direction for development, they're not omnipresent; certainly not for such a huge operation. The breakdowns happen below between people well outside public scrutiny, and I tell you, in a corporate environment, the darnedest things happen to negatively affect a product or service.

[FeedsOnDevTears]

I can't say that I have any idea what causes it, but the pattern of alternating well and poorly recieved expansions does seem to be a thing to me.

[Soon-TM]

Again, it's easy to think only of highly visible or executive leadership, when there are directors and managers all the way down and across who still need to work with each other. So while someone like a Wilson or Street or Chilton or Haz assumes responsibility for design, and may set a tone or direction for development, they're not omnipresent; certainly not for such a huge operation. The breakdowns happen below between people well outside public scrutiny, and I tell you, in a corporate environment, the darnedest things happen to negatively affect a product or service.

Having worked for a big corporation for almost 10 years, my impression is that once a corporation is large enough, they develop a strong tendency to have positions of power (sometimes even those at the very top) occupied by people who have got there through manipulation and office politics, rather than by their own merits. Such enterprise bureaucrats (by lack of a better description) cannot realistically be purged, but just kept out of harm's way, and ONLY if the very higher ups actively police every single department. It seems that no one cares enough about that point after Metzen left.

[geromeR]

Having worked for a big corporation for almost 10 years, my impression is that once a corporation is large enough, they develop a strong tendency to have positions of power (sometimes even those at the very top) occupied by people who have got there through manipulation and office politics, rather than by their own merits. Such enterprise bureaucrats (by lack of a better description) cannot realistically be purged, but just kept out of harm's way, and ONLY if the very higher ups actively police every single department. It seems that no one cares enough about that point after Metzen left.

This is pretty spot on, the company I work at has the same issue. You suck up enough and praise the right guys even though you want to criticize it. You get a promotion.

[Kuntantee]

Whichever teams lays the ground work for the next expansion, the fundamentals, direction and vision; that's the shit team. Here is what I think, I think Blizzard's A team is shit, not B.

[Deleted]

Whichever teams lays the ground work for the next expansion, the fundamentals, direction and vision; that's the shit team. Here is what I think, I think Blizzard's A team is shit, not B.

Wouldnt a shit team ahve run the game into the ground after more then 10 years?