BFA is not WoD 2.0 ...

[Wraethion]

They aren't RNG. You can look up any piece of gear on wowhead right now and it will tell you what traits it offers for what classes.

The traits. They are RNG. Each new piece you get has a random set of traits that can be better/worse for your toon.

Yeah I'm sure those 30 AP tokens really made a massive difference in the first few weeks.

It would actually give chests value to be opened instead of skipped. It would also provide an alternative. I guess you don't like alternatives.

It is literally the same thing only instead of applying a positive multiplier to the AP items they add a negative multiplier to the AP requirement.

Not quiet actually. The negative multiplier is applied to artifact level 15+. 1-14 are still the same.

You really need more buttons? Disc Priest doesn't.

Congrats, you found one spec for one class that may want more passives. What about the other specs and classes that need more active abilities and were pruned because of the 8.0 switch?

Azerite gear is intended to fill the role of both toned down legendaries and artifact traits. Remember when Blizz said in hindsight they made legendaries too strong and should have focused on passive buffs and utility? Well the first 3 tiers of traits are their attempt at that.

And they aren't working well.

I'd rather be known as my character than "that Tauren with the OP staff that murders people if they aren't strong enough in the light".

You were known as your character. Lots of artifact weapons had npcs in the world that would talk of your character in respect. Its like you forgot that feature.

Azerite gear isn't RNG ... the traits are known from every piece.

Oh hey 2:2, maybe its going to be 3:3. The azerite traits are random. That isn't a good thing.

So what? You didn't have a scenario that rewarded AP in Legion. You get AP doing Island Expeditions.

Actually we did have a scenario that awarded artifact power. Withered Army Training.

Literally the same thing.

In Legion there was artifact power from World Quests and from Chests. In BFA this azerite is not in chests but is still in World Quests.

And most of what the weapons gave were passives. And didn't classes only have one or two actives from the weapons? Seems weird to be happy over a single difference.

Lots of these "1 actives" were central to the rotation of a character. There was also no pruning or abilities being moved onto the GCD until 8.0.

So they simplified the process and that's bad?

Yes actually in this case.

Many of which was made up for Legion itself and never reference in Lore before.

At least they have pages and pages of backstory compared to having none.

[Deleted]

It's Legion 0.5 !

Read the following sentences as if BFA came out before Legion.

War Campaign: A good feature that was poorly received due to rep gating and the super short and disengaging story. SO it is expanded into an awesome campaign for each class with elements for each spec. The rep requirement is removed!

Heart of Azeroth: A good feature with poor implementation due to the slow progression that resets itself with each new piece. The catch-up mechanic isn't very good because AP isn't farmable at a good rate. SO the progression now is based on Artifact weapons and is permanent and never lost, in addition to the AP being viably farmed from almost any activity in the game!

Missions Table: After the disaster that was the Garrison, BFA cuts back a whole lot on mission tables, making them virtually meaningless. SO now they're expanded to have their own stories and rewards with a class-specific theme that's cross-faction. It doesn't isolate you AND it has some cool missions that can boost your gearing and income!

Azerite Gear: It was a bit wonky when you got a piece of gear that was 15 ilvl higher with the same exact traits but it was a downgrade because they were all locked traits. SO now we have legendaries that provide an ilvl boost AND a fixed gameplay-changing trait!

Island Expeditions: They were boring and a chore. SO we removed them.

World Quests: They were really good at the start of BFA, but as people finished their rep requirements, they became forgotten. SO this time they'll reward meaningful things like resources for your missions table and a slight chance at a legendary!

Just a few thoughts on BFA. Not saying Legion was perfect.


From: Official WoW Reddit

The community went from nice to crap since Cataclysm.

This post proves it...

[MrCool]

The community went from nice to crap since Cataclysm.

This post proves it...

Or maybe community has legitimate criticism on the game which is... well... fairly lacking in the polishing, design and balance departments?
The game environments are pretty but... oh boy how awful its gameplay is.

[Darththeo]

Oh hey 2:2, maybe its going to be 3:3. The azerite traits are random. That isn't a good thing.

The traits on the gear are not random ... get the same piece of gear twice and check it yourself. All Azerite gear has set effects for that piece. There is no random in the traits on Azerite gear ... the reason it is 2:2 is you are wrong.

For example: https://www.wowhead.com/item=155095/...erite-powers=4

This piece will ALWAYS have these traits for the respective class. Always. The traits aren't random.

Actually we did have a scenario that awarded artifact power. Withered Army Training.

Except that wasn't guaranteed ... there were times I did that all I got were Rep items. Also, it was one scenario that was ALWAYS the same thing ... yeah, that's totally better than what we have with Island Expeditions.

In Legion there was artifact power from World Quests and from Chests. In BFA this azerite is not in chests but is still in World Quests.

So what? It isn't in chests now ... this is literally a pointless complaint. Which is why when I stated literally the same thing ... this wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about your multiplier complaint.

Lots of these "1 actives" were central to the rotation of a character. There was also no pruning or abilities being moved onto the GCD until 8.0.

And a lot of those that were "central" were move to talents or made baseline.

Yes actually in this case.

No at all ... what's easier to understand? I do this one thing and I get stronger or I have to do this and get these to get stronger. Relics were to replace weapon drops and thus why they empowered the weapon ... The Heart of Azeroth IS what empowers Azerite Armor. It isn't worse because you liked the old way.

At least they have pages and pages of backstory compared to having none.

And item that was literally forged in front of your eyes has less history than one that existed for many years ... who would have guessed that.

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The problem is people lowering their standards to accommodate blizzard. Dismiss any criticism as "irrational hate" all you want, but negative feedback is far, FAR more important for the game than white-knighting ever will be.

There is a difference between negative feedback and whining as well. A lot of complaints are whining, not negative feedback. Look, there is a person literally claiming azerite traits are random when they are not. I can agree with a lot of complaints over Island Expeditions and Warfronts, but I have to say I like them both but I can see why people rationally hate them.

[Deleted]

The problem is people lowering their standards to accommodate blizzard. Dismiss any criticism as "irrational hate" all you want, but negative feedback is far, FAR more important for the game than white-knighting ever will be.

Nope. Comstructive criticism is good. Irrational hate is not. When you set your bar at an unatainable point and be upset that it's not met, the issue is with you.

[OMGTwitchTV]

From: Official WoW Reddit

Not sure if serious...

[Darkis]

While definitely cringy - OP is not wrong. BFA, at this point, is a tasteless candy in a pretty wrap.

- Both advertised new features - expeditions and warfronts - are bland, boring and utterly hopeless.
- HoA progression is unrewarding, especially with level skips for traits.
- Mission table is useless.

I did enjoy the dungeons and zones, but that's pretty much it.

Nope. Comstructive criticism is good. Irrational hate is not. When you set your bar at an unatainable point and be upset that it's not met, the issue is with you.

Unattainable point? Sure, providing engaging gameplay features and at least some resemblance of class balance is an unattainable task for this small indie company.

[Deleted]

The community went from nice to crap since Cataclysm.

This post proves it...

Great argument to rebut me.

[Mafic]

While definitely cringy - OP is not wrong. BFA, at this point, is a tasteless candy in a pretty wrap.

- Both advertised new features - expeditions and warfronts - are bland, boring and utterly hopeless.
- HoA progression is unrewarding, especially with level skips for traits.
- Mission table is useless.

I did enjoy the dungeons and zones, but that's pretty much it.

Patch 8.1 will be exciting...eh...we don't know what patch 8.1 will have. Fingers crossed lol?

[Deleted]

While definitely cringy - OP is not wrong. BFA, at this point, is a tasteless candy in a pretty wrap.

- Both advertised new features - expeditions and warfronts - are bland, boring and utterly hopeless.
- HoA progression is unrewarding, especially with level skips for traits.
- Mission table is useless.

I did enjoy the dungeons and zones, but that's pretty much it.



Unattainable point? Sure, providing engaging gameplay features and at least some resemblance of class balance is an unattainable task for this small indie company.

"engaging gameplay features" is not objective. You are doing armchair criticism and saying: I'm here. Amuse me!
You don't actually know what you want, except you want to be cynic about it.

Class balance is unobtainable. That is a fact. But, in Legion PvP, balance was much better an people complained and said they wanted their gear to matter rather than have balance. In fact, most players don't seem to want balance. Mind you, it's not my opinion. But sisnce players also want their classes to be constantly changed, given the feedback this expansion, it will indeed be increasingly hard to do that.

With that said, BfA balance is actually the best balance i've seen at the start of an expansion, outside of PvP. PvP is a bloody mess, but it's what people wanted. So now they got it.

[Nyel]

Worse than WoD? BfA might win this price.

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With that said, BfA balance is actually the best balance i've seen at the start of an expansion, outside of PvP.

Yeah that's why two specs got their revamps shoved into 8.1 because Blizzard wasn't able to fix them until 8.0. And then there are other specs that get several buffs and are still awful (Feral says hello).

[dproject]

In my opinion, BfA is better than WOD by miles ahead. It is even better than Legion as well.
I would rate this expansion as the second best after TBC.

[caervek]

No, it's not WoD 2.0. That would be a major insult to WoD.

I started to laugh then I realised it's true

[scart35]

Nope. Comstructive criticism is good. Irrational hate is not. When you set your bar at an unatainable point and be upset that it's not met, the issue is with you.

Gameplay at least as good as Legion is unatainable point? k

[Deleted]

No, it's not WoD 2.0. That would be a major insult to WoD.

I started to laugh then I realised it's true

Sadly, that's how it is.

[Deleted]

Worse than WoD? BfA might win this price.

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Yeah that's why two specs got their revamps shoved into 8.1 because Blizzard wasn't able to fix them until 8.0. And then there are other specs that get several buffs and are still awful (Feral says hello).

This is tireing. Balance and design aren't the same thing. Balance is purely numbers.

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Gameplay at least as good as Legion is unatainable point? k

Again, that is your subjective opinion.

[Starscream101]

So WoD is better then Legion and BFA is your eyes?
lol alright then buddy.

As far as PvP is Yes way way way way way way way better than BFA ever thought of being. And so far the raid in Uldir is meh and it is only a world quest game right now and other than Waycrest Manor the dungeons are Meh too

[Kyphael]

Sure isn't! BfA is fun and engaging on both continents whereas WoD after the intro seemed repetitive and isolating and made me un-sub on the first week for its entire duration. I have no plans to unsub from BfA, working on 7th Legion and looking forward to playing Kul'tirans and Zandalari!

[Malikath]

MoP was the last real expansion, everything since has been regurgitation.

[Kaligon]

I like how people compare Class Campaign and War Campaign. Bunch of idiots that didn't even play at start of Legion. You literally got weapon and opened class hall after start. After that every two weeks you got 2-3 quest that took 15min. Class Campaign had no content whatsover.

People whining about Azerite Power have never done Artifact Power before heavy Artifact Knowledge buffs. I do remember having 12million requirements with rewards in range of 300-3000. Any half decent guild had requirements of three big traits before first raid, which was insane amount of grind. Do any of you remember that it was impossible to reach minimum mythic raid requirements for two specs on same character?

You probably dont remember the half of backlash that was legendary items. Everyone hated them. I don't remember a single person/streamer/community member saying anything positive about Legendaries before like 7.2. There wasn't a single thing in history of WoW that was hated so heavily by community (Alliance currently likes Sylvanas more than WoW community liked legendaries in the beginning of Legion).

World Quest rewards barely changed, the quests are more dynamic and interesting. The mobs in the zones even changes based on the WQs.

A lot of people really liked story line and they somehow don't remember what they actually liked about it and how it worked. I would guess they have done it way later after the start. In the start it was both time and rep gated. As well as there was two dungeons that were Suramar story gated which means you had not only farm rep but wait for them to unlock. AND Suramar world quests were gated behind story lines which means you would only get WQs in Suramar zones when you completed quest lines in there.
Suramar story was great but it was not any sort of end-game content. It was just interesting casual story with a decent Scenario mission that you could do every 3 days.

tldr: Legion start was even more gated than BFA with unreasonable requirements. Even playing multiple specs was not viable until they heavily increased effects of Artifact Knowledge. There wasn't a single person that liked Legendaries before 7.2.

Early BFA end-game consists of a little bit of Warfronts/Island Expeditions for weekly reward, Arenas, RBG, Raids and Mythic+.
Early Legion end-game was spamming M+, short story line once a week and doing Raids. (there was no incentive to do any PvP).

Agreed start to finish. Legion was the best 'modern' wow has been. BFA gets rid of almost all the bad and so far there is nothing I dislike. They already dropped the neck-level requirement on Azerite Power gear and I think 15 ilevels is ALWAYS an upgrade even with no traits. This is why those pieces don't warforge imo. I'm alliance, haven't done the Warfront. I like expeditions, but even if I didn't, they're purely extra and largely optional content. PVP is relevant and fun again (thanks to pruning and more GCDs, this is like the fix-PVP expansion) and as much as people whine about Icy Veins triggering a GCD now, it really doesn't matter that much for raids if there are a few extra GCDs. Just because you can't macro 5 trinkets/potions/abilities into one button press ending with your spam attack and push good openers anymore doesn't mean that PVE is bad.

My only semi-complaint is something the Blizzard has no easy way to fix. Alliance players simply have warmode turned off at this point (except idiots like me who would rather get ganked while doing dailies than turn it off). This has resulted in Horde essentially just getting 10% more everything from World Quests than alliance. It also causes issues with summoning stones when party members are in different modes. I would just put summoning stones inside the instances. Maybe incentivize the short-manned faction with an 'against the odds' buff. It seems horde assassins drop 1000s of golf worth of items when you kill them, but this either needs to be made more clear to people or codified. I got 700 gold and 3k worth of crap (and so did everyone in my party) when we killed a horde assassin. I think gank-squads to counter horde will eventually(?) be a thing, except people who are casual have it off so then there isn't any PVP... idk, Warmode needs additionall tuning.

Overall BFA is by far my favorite expansion so far. Gameplay (ofc I'm a mage, they got very few changes from legion)Music, Graphics (zuldazar and Boralus are GORGEOUS and both better than Suramar), and--for the first time in my wow career since WOTLK--Story, are actually driving forces for me. Much better than the bread-crumb 'Illidan is ret-conned into a good guy and we take out both Prime Narru and Sargeras' Legion story imho.

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Posting a follow up to myself, but the dungeons have been pretty excellent. King's rest, Siege, Waycrest Manor, Underot, Shrine of the Storms all excellent dungeons. Mythic+ has been hugely reworked and made FAR better, the seasons is a great idea and seasonal Affix. There can be real competition and a sense that if one tank or DPS is over-performing this season, the seasonal affix can be used to balance that out or shake it up next season without major changes to the class.

PvP is in the best state in the 1800-2100 brackets (where I play) than Legion, imo. Gear working instead of templates is fine because there are no legendary items, overpowered Artifact Weapons maxed out early by basement dwellers and trinkets are substantially less bursty now than in Legion.

Uldir has been far better then Emerald Nightmare overall, specifically in the tuning department. No over-the-top OP classes (pending a few more days to see what the top guilds have figured out for Mythic). Mother, Zul, G'hun are all top-notch raid encounters as far as Normal/Heroic goes and they're tuned not to fall over, if this difficulty progression curve is maintained through proper item-level launches each week then we'll see a steady flow of progression throughout the tier for most raiding guilds, which is ideal as opposed to everything falling over like Emerald Nightmare, or extremely hard guild-killing gates like Tomb of Sargeras.

Loved Legion. Also loving BFA.

Bring on the flamers cause I know people gonna hate on me on this forum for enjoying what they prefer to hate.