Why doesn't anyone talk about Bards?

[Necromantic]

(a Weapon widely used by Monks)

And Napoleon Dynamite...

[Alpharius]

That’s just rhythm setting for those around. It isn’t killing gnolls all on its own.

kodo wardrummers in the warfront disagree

Edit:

And there is this world boss right now that's also a wardrummer

[Teriz]

kodo wardrummers in the warfront disagree

Edit:

And there is this world boss right now that's also a wardrummer

Just curious:

How is a class with "Wardrummers" any different than our existing classes having sound abilities that buff?

examples:

Death Knight
Horn of Winter: Blow the Horn of Winter, gaining 2 Rune and generating 25 Runic Power.

Druid
Savage Roar: Finishing move that increases damage by 15% while in Cat Form. Lasts longer per combo point

Monk
Song of Chi-Ji: Conjures a cloud of hypnotic mist that slowly travels forward. Enemies touched by the mist fall asleep, Disoriented for 20 sec.

Priest
Divine Hymn: Heals all party or raid members within 40 yards for [5 * (43% of Spell power)] over 8 sec, and increases healing done to them by 10% for 8 sec. Healing increased by 100% when not in a raid.

Warrior
Battle Shout: Increases the attack power of all raid and party members within 100 yards by 10% for 1 hour.
Demoralizing Shout: Demoralizes all enemies within 10 yards, reducing the damage they deal to you by 20% for 8 sec.
Intimidating Shout: Causes the targeted enemy to cower in fear, and up to 5 additional enemies within 8 yards to flee. Targets are disoriented for 8 sec.
Dragon Roar: Roar explosively, dealing Physical damage to all enemies within 12 yds and reducing their movement speed by 50% for 6 sec.
Rallying Cry:Lets loose a rallying cry, granting all party or raid members within 40 yards 15% temporary and maximum health for 10 sec.

[Alpharius]

Just curious:

How is a class with "Wardrummers" any different than our existing classes having sound abilities that buff?

examples:

Death Knight
Horn of Winter: Blow the Horn of Winter, gaining 2 Rune and generating 25 Runic Power.

Druid
Savage Roar: Finishing move that increases damage by 15% while in Cat Form. Lasts longer per combo point

Monk
Song of Chi-Ji: Conjures a cloud of hypnotic mist that slowly travels forward. Enemies touched by the mist fall asleep, Disoriented for 20 sec.

Priest
Divine Hymn: Heals all party or raid members within 40 yards for [5 * (43% of Spell power)] over 8 sec, and increases healing done to them by 10% for 8 sec. Healing increased by 100% when not in a raid.

Warrior
Battle Shout: Increases the attack power of all raid and party members within 100 yards by 10% for 1 hour.
Demoralizing Shout: Demoralizes all enemies within 10 yards, reducing the damage they deal to you by 20% for 8 sec.
Intimidating Shout: Causes the targeted enemy to cower in fear, and up to 5 additional enemies within 8 yards to flee. Targets are disoriented for 8 sec.
Dragon Roar: Roar explosively, dealing Physical damage to all enemies within 12 yds and reducing their movement speed by 50% for 6 sec.
Rallying Cry:Lets loose a rallying cry, granting all party or raid members within 40 yards 15% temporary and maximum health for 10 sec.

idk man if we all combine them into some megazord class, we can have a bard

[Thimagryn]

Drums of War are a profession creation

Which is also more lore for music used in battle. Aside from that, professions can overlap class themes easily.

[Senko]

Bards have always been about buffs and group oriented play.
WoW and modern MMOs have gone into the opposite direction, everyone has to be able to solo and nobody can have such an important buff that they must be brought in every group/raid, hence why every buff is now just a flat 10%, and nothing unorthodox like auras or totems (there are some paladin blessings remaining but lets not oversell their usefulness)

Here's an example of a bard buff song from Everquest:

1: Increase Attack Speed by 60%
2: Increase STR by 308
3: Increase ATK by 197
4: Increase Damage Shield by 133
6: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 43%
12: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 5%

Imagine a class in WoW giving that to your entire group/raid

[Absintheminded]

So, just to play Devil's Advocate a little, here's an example:

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Russell_Brower_(NPC)

I realize it's scant, but the precedent exists in-game as much as monk did, pre-MoP. Not only that, but even WC hero classes like DK and DH weren't fully fleshed-out before their WoW release.

Personally I believe that's enough of a precedent that if it makes sense play-wise, then go for it Blizz. I also believe that there's probably enough classes already, so whatever. WoW really could use support, though.

[MatthiasLehner]

I'm terrible with older RPGs but, are there any good Bard archetype examples where they are not gimmicky, silly, weird and comic-relief-ish characters? Because those are the only things I've been exposed to, and therefore not attracted to them. Surely there must be some kind of "cool" bard characters that attract the fan base?

[Rhamses]

Bards are different depending on the game, like:

Ragnarok Online Bards, Minstrels and clowns are ltierally the singers/instrument supports, with humor abilities and evolved from Archer class.

When I think of a pretty robust Bard class, I think of RO. They did a pretty good job of producing a support class with some solid offensive abilities. Their more advanced classes also had some very interesting abilities like Tarot Card and Arrow Vulcan.

[Surreality]

That's a really good point BTW, Mistweaver monk has really become the channeling healer of the game.

Exactly my point. A bard's music feels like it should have channeled abilities. Not exactly like a monk, but in the same sense.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know why you'd assume what is traditionally an AoE proactive playstyle based on applying and maintaining auras would somehow have the same mechanics as a single target channeling focused class.

How would a Bard's music be the same as single target channeled heals using Kung Fu?

So which is it guys? You got two conflicting stories going on here.

Maybe "mechanics" was the wrong term to use. What I'm saying is that musical abilities would make sense as channeled abilities. Whether it's "AoE" or "single target" doesn't really matter. Instant spells could be like power chords. Monks are pretty much the only healing class with regularly used channeled abilities. That's the comparison I am trying to make.

[Deleted]

I'm terrible with older RPGs but, are there any good Bard archetype examples where they are not gimmicky, silly, weird and comic-relief-ish characters? Because those are the only things I've been exposed to, and therefore not attracted to them. Surely there must be some kind of "cool" bard characters that attract the fan base?

What about Dandelion from the Witcher series? I like that character. I also did not think about him being some kind of comic relief device, though his name is debatable. Ministrels in LOTRO also have a good design. And while technically not a Bard, Johnny Silverhand, a rockstar from Cyberpunk, is totally badass.

Honestly, the culprit about bards being comical relief are probably the "Asterix" comics, at least for Europeans.

[caervek]

In the recent poll of which class should be next, the Bard finished a close third behind the Tinker and the Necromancer. I was a little surprised since I never see anyone ever bring this class up.

It's something that was heavily requested during alpha, beta, Vanilla, etc. However over time Blizzard made it clear from their indifference that it was never going to be a thing, then when they moved to kill off the "support specs" and convert them into main DPS specs people got the memo that it was never happening and talk kind of died off.

Polls like you saw however show the dream lives on.

[Teriz]

So, just to play Devil's Advocate a little, here's an example:

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Russell_Brower_(NPC)

I realize it's scant, but the precedent exists in-game as much as monk did, pre-MoP. Not only that, but even WC hero classes like DK and DH weren't fully fleshed-out before their WoW release.

Nah, Monks had this:



Also Chen rode with high profile company:



After his quest we never from Russell Brower again. He's also a meme character.

Personally I believe that's enough of a precedent that if it makes sense play-wise, then go for it Blizz. I also believe that there's probably enough classes already, so whatever. WoW really could use support, though.[/QUOTE]

[Hitei]

If you insist that this is your point of view to the point where you'll call characters like Chi-ji, a mantid, and a dimensional monstrosity a "bard" then nothing I'm going to say is going to change your mind. I can only say "They're really not bards" so many times without just repeating myself. Never ingame are they considered a bard, and they don't at all fit the mold of a fantasy bard in any way.

I can tell you with genuine certainty that characters like Murmur, Zor'lok and Chi-ji were not designed with the concept of a bard in mind. You're applying your own concept of a bard which is nothing like what WoW would implement to fight a pointless nitpicky paragraph-long argument against someone who's not even disagreeing with your desire to have bards ingame.

But it's not an opinion that bards as they'd be represented as a WoW class are not particularly common in WoW at all, let along in a combat sense.

If I can point out to you that Zor'lok literally uses a bunch of spells that are nearly identical to spells on the 3.5 bard spell list, as well as the primary mechanic of the bard class, and your answer is "he's not really a bard", I don't know how to help you. You seem to be stuck on the idea that a bard has to be a human or elf guy dancing around an inn playing a harp, despite that being completely incompatible with how bards are depicted in pretty much every game and RPG.

Yes, he is a mantid. Do you think that what race you are determines if you are a bard or not? Is a mantid who summons demons and throws felfire not a warlock because he's a mantid? Is Hisek the Swarmkeeper not a hunter because he is a mantid? I get that you have this bizarre fixation on the NPCs needing to have <Bard> under their name, but I assure you whether or not they are labeled as bards means very, very little. No one is saying that Murmur and Chi-ji were designed with the bard class in mind, the point is that they are thematically extremely similar and set a prescendent for characters who use bard mechanics in combat and are based entirely around those mechanics.

I am applying the concept of bard that is used across the vast majority of video games, RPGs, and other places where you see bards as a class: A character who utilizes music/sound based magic to fight or support. It is exactly like what WoW would implement, because it is exactly the sort of sources Blizzard would pull from to create a bard class. Just like monks took traditional elements of the class from other depictions in other games, added to them influences from warcraft characters who had a similar thematic (read: Chen) and created the Monk class.

It's not an opinion that there are literally more named bard characters than there were monks before the monk class. If two named NPCs and a boss who all use music to fight and are very clearly bards, doesn't show you that they exist and exist in the combat sense, you are a lost cause.

[Absintheminded]

Nah, Monks had this:

Also Chen rode with high profile company:

After his quest we never from Russell Brower again. He's also a meme character.

That's debatable as to whether that's really more than Bard. You've got a picture. Russell is in game with abilities so I'm not really reaching here. As for being ameme character, well that's incredibly subjective. Chen was no less a meme character before that was even a thing. So much of WoW and WC has been tongue-in-cheek and pop culture references.

[Sigxy]

I guess Blizzard just need to fine tune(HAH) the class system a bit, first.

[Ielenia]

I simply said that each expansion class is tied to a major lore figure.

Not really. Cataclysm was all centered around Deathwing, so much so his glorious chin was plastered front and center on the expansion's box... but who was Deathwing originally? Sure, in the lore he may be big, being the corrupted leader of the Black Dragonflight, but... how many knew him prior to Cataclysm? Hell, how many even knew he existed? As far as I recall, the last time he showed up was in second Warcraft game.

And then we have Chen Stormstout. A pandaren so obscure that I'm willing to bet the percentage of the playerbase that knew him (as in, really knew who and what Chen was) prior to MoP is in the single-digit range, if not the decimal range.

The simple reality is that Bard has none

The reality is that you haven't shown why it really matters. Was Arthas, Chen and Illidan featured front-and-center in the expansion box because of the new classes their expansions brought, or because they're prominent players in the stories of their respective expansions?

Additionally expansion classes are tied to the general theme of the expansion. How can we tie an expansion to Bards when they don't even have a major lore character to be tied to?

Who said we have to tie a class to the expansion's general theme? Again you're stating as fact something you have no way of proving that "tying to expansion story" is a mandatory requirement in class design.

Everything we know about expansion classes tells us that it DOES matter. Blizzard has tied each expansion class to a major lore figure and to a general expansion theme. Bards have neither possibility unless Blizzard starts adding a LOT of lore to the concept.

Still doesn't prove as fact that Blizzard must tie a "big lore figure" to class design.

He's considered a Champion of the Horde.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Champion_o...ite_note-UVG-1

Oh, my god, thanks for the laughs. A book. Chen is referenced in a book. Thank you for proving my point. What's the percentage of players that buy the game's guide books, again? You just proved my point that Chen was a really damn obscure character. The last time the average player saw Chen was waaaay back in Warcraft 3. Or if they bought a book. Again, what's the percentage of players who bought it...? Seriously, Chen Stormstout was such an obscure character that he could have been easily removed from the story that nothing at all would change.

Chen Stormstout and the Pandarens appeared in multiple Warcraft-related books for years.

I'll stop you right there. Insisting in mentioning books only proves my point further.

Pandarens were one of the highest requested races up until their release in MoP.

Yeah... I could tell how really requested he was when MoP was announced. Surely all that massive uproar of "Kung-Fu Panda rip-off" were just pandaren fans pretending to be mad about "pandas", right?

Why do you think Blizzard designed a class after him

Prove it that they made the monk class after Chen Stormstout. Because I don't see any "Chen" or "Stormstout" names in any of the abilities. The most likely scenario is that they designed the monk class to fit in the expansion's story since in the story the pandaren were the ones who "invented" the class.

and made him the face of an entire expansion if he was a minor character that "no one knew about"?

Probably because, despite his massive obscurity, until MoP he was the ONLY pandaren in existence, period.

[Hitei]

I'm terrible with older RPGs but, are there any good Bard archetype examples where they are not gimmicky, silly, weird and comic-relief-ish characters? Because those are the only things I've been exposed to, and therefore not attracted to them. Surely there must be some kind of "cool" bard characters that attract the fan base?

[Ielenia]

As I said, LITERALLY wearing Monk/Kung-Fu Attire,

You mean, traditional ancient chinese attire?

wielding a Bo Staff (a Weapon widely used by Monks)

Wielding a staff is commonplace for wanderers. Especially those who do not travel light, and I imagine carrying a keg of beer qualifies as "not traveling light". Also, look at that staff. A 'bo staff' is a properly balanced staff. Now look at that thing again: that thing is as "balanced" as an abomination's body symmetry.

and drank a lot of brew, which is the entire Drunken Master Monk archetype.

So is the "archetype" of everyday drunkards.

- - - Updated - - -

After his quest we never from Russell Brower again.

We have. In Firelands.

He's also a meme character.

How can he be a "meme character" without any memes of him?

[Teriz]

Not really. Cataclysm was all centered around Deathwing, so much so his glorious chin was plastered front and center on the expansion's box... but who was Deathwing originally? Sure, in the lore he may be big, being the corrupted leader of the Black Dragonflight, but... how many knew him prior to Cataclysm? Hell, how many even knew he existed? As far as I recall, the last time he showed up was in second Warcraft game.

Uh, Deathwing was also a major lore figure. Assuming how many people knew of the character doesn't change that fact.

And then we have Chen Stormstout. A pandaren so obscure that I'm willing to bet the percentage of the playerbase that knew him (as in, really knew who and what Chen was) prior to MoP is in the single-digit range, if not the decimal range.

He was so obscure that people wanted an entire race based on his character?

The pandaren started as a creation of lead artist Samwise Didier and an April Fool's joke, but they got a massive response from Warcraft fans.[83] When the expansion to Warcraft III was announced, the Pandaren brewmaster was added as a neutral hero, available and playable on nearly every melee map. One Brewmaster, Chen Stormstout was included as an optional playable hero in the expansion's orc campaign. Due to this popularity, pandaren were rumored to be the new playable Alliance race to be introduced in the Burning Crusade expansion. Their possible appearance in WoW has been hinted at multiple times by Blizzard.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Pandaren

Also GC confirmed that originally the Monk class was the Brewmaster class:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...-pandaren-monk

The reality is that you haven't shown why it really matters. Was Arthas, Chen and Illidan featured front-and-center in the expansion box because of the new classes their expansions brought, or because they're prominent players in the stories of their respective expansions?

It's more than likely a combination of both. The important point is that the Bard would not have either a lore figure or an expansion that fits their theme.