So alliance is using necromancy now ?

[matrix123mko]

Anyways if raising spirits is considered necromancy then are shaman necromancers??

Yes, it is.

And she is soooo evil.

No, she isn't. She only uses corpses to protect Undercity, which is controversial, but acceptable. In opposition Alliance uses magic to raise spirits, effectivly blocking their way to paradise and sentencing them to eternal pain of undead.

[Venziir]

So there is a funny thing i noticed in stormgarde warfront. After you progress a bit, some of alliance priests will cast a spell on friendly corpses summoning "Vengenful spirits" who attack horde.

So my question is - is this necromancy ? is it "This is totally not necromancy"ancy ? Maybe its "Its ok if alliance are doing it"ancy.

Because as it is, it seems to be exact same move sylvanas used in battle for undercity. And she is soooo evil.

If you go to Arathi when it's Allianced controlled, you'll find the Horde based filled with those spirits, so no.

[Drpizka]

In the battle of Lordearon, Sylvanas plagued the surroundings of Lordearon to destroy her enemies, which also meant killing her own people. As it wasn't truly effective, she shortly after raised them to fight the alliance and finish the job. She sacrificed her own people for her war. That's very different from the warfront.

That's exactly the definition of "double standards" here guys!

[Malikath]

think about druids, nelves and their falle spirit called whisp.
*mindblowing*

not really, wisps are night elven dead, it's just they don't go anywhere when they die.
they just go help the forest grow, which i guess is at least an after-life that won't get completely monotonous.

[Oakshana]

So, while this was necromancy, it was a "less evil" version of it, just playing with corpses, not trapping / abusing souls.

[Faerillis]

If the Alliance is playing nice, Hordies are calling them nancies.

If the Alliance is playing rough, Hordies are calling them hypocrites or whatever.


Because of that stupid reasoning, the vocal modern Horde community is officially meme'd as toxic and immature. This is the exact same contradictive argument a teenager bully would use.

Dude what are you talking about? Most Horde are annoyed that they are being made moustache-twirling villains and dislike a lot of the tactics Blizz shoves our way. Your notion seems exceedingly ill founded

[Amathricus]

So reading the early posts in this thread ONE person made a point that everyone is ignoring. The Alliance have used Necromancy since Wrath, as have the Horde. Death Knights are in both factions. They both raises skeletons of those they've killed, or simply random bodies that are pulled from the ground. They use necromancy to raise their comrades in battle. Any point beyond that has no real baring as both factions have been doing so for years. And this is PLAYER'S choice, not because some NPC did it and we're forced to deal with the fall out. We've done the very same thing. I know I have countless times with my DKs. :P

As to the Horde soldiers killed and raised, yeah. Sucks. Morally bad. Reason for it? Civilians. It was part of a plan to get the civilians safely out of the city. Soldiers were sacrificed to save the populous and buy time for evacuation. Best choice of action? No. But it's something Sylvanas knows would work, adds to the Hordes froces, and is good at. And had Jaina not come in at the exactly right time, would have won the day. The Alliance would have had to retreat with little other option. Love it or loathe it, it was a sound tactic. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Soldiers died on both sides to save civilians.

[Isilrien]

Obviously Horde’s, but that doesn’t matter.
It’s mostly one side speculating that a blurry action performed by a nameless alliance NPC might be bad.
And another side speculating that the same action is absolutely not bad because it’s done by Alliance.

That, and assigning everyone in one faction to one of these stances, even though the entire population of each faction doesn't post or hasn't weighed in on the thread.

[steelballfc]

It's 12 pages. Can't be arsed to read them. So whose dick is bigger? Horde's or Alliance's?

Tauren
/10char

[Jastall]

The sticking point at the Battle of Lordaeron was that Sylvanas was raising her own troops to fight again, that's all everybody was outraged about. Now we see the Alliance doing it at Stromgarde with spirits for the exact same purpose, now the goalposts have suddenly changed and it's "Ah but Sylvanas did it with Alliance troops and forced them to fight their own people". Funny how that was never a point for debate before, but now the Alliance have been seen employing the same tactic and no longer have the moral highground to hide behind the criteria change again so they can keep it.

What does intent matter when you cannot prove it anymore than I can disprove it? It's an irrelevant sticking point that results in nothing but a stalemate. Just citing their name as the sole evidence for their intentions is weak, because it is based entirely on the assumption that the bodies Sylvanas rose did not have intent - something neither of us can prove or disprove either way because we're not mind readers of a bunch of pixels in a fantasy game. What we do know is that being re-risen as an undead can completely change that person from who they were in life, so how can you say that those risen Alliance soldiers were not fighting their former comrades of their own free will regardless of their former allegiances? You cannot. Neither can I. Neither can anyone. Which is my whole point - it's a moot argument because nobody can prove or disprove anything. It's all rooted in assumptions, which means it cannot be used as a sticking point to distinguish the Alliance from the Horde in this case.

All that we're left with then are the bare bones (excuse the pun) of what we see with our own eyes - that the Alliance rose people from the dead to fight again. That's all we definitely see, that's all we can definitely know. Anything else is entirely rooted in assumption, especially with complex concepts such as "intent" and "free will" So, when just looked at on the most fundamental level based on what we actually see, and therefore know, there is no fundamental difference between what the Alliance do at Stromgarde to what Sylvanas did at Lordaeron.

You can prove intent when it comes to the bodies raising by Sylvanas. While attempting to rescue Horde soldiers dying in the Blight, they sure don't stay around and die for the Banshee Queen, they get the fuck out of dodge and some emote their anguish as well. So they did not expect not consent to die in such a way, and thus it follows they did not expect to be raised and could not consent to it. Not so with the Alliance troops who say nothing.

Also, the Alliance troops are slain by the Horde then raised. The Horde troops were slain by the Horde then raised, that's a fairly significant difference. And you dismiss the names because they don't fit the narrative, but a spirit of vengeance and a risen, automaton undead are not the same thing.

I actually like that the Alliance gets some teeth and uses a more dubious method to fight in their desperation, and a no-holds-barred guy like Trollbane would be one to at least tacitly approve of such a tactic unlike, say, Turalyon. But to make an equivalent to Sylvanas's mass raising of both her enemies and team-killed allies is a massive stretch at best, just like someone using explosives in a battlefield does not equate Garrosh's nuking of Theramore. Degrees are important.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I was using that as a starting point for discussion so people actually had some kind of definition to go on being as the WoW equivalent is apparently lacking. Unless you have some solid Warcraft lore than definitively spells out the difference between in-game necromancy and real world necromancy?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Necromancer No reason to use real world necromancy when you can find inllre info on it.

[Khallid]

So there is a funny thing i noticed in stormgarde warfront. After you progress a bit, some of alliance priests will cast a spell on friendly corpses summoning "Vengenful spirits" who attack horde.

So my question is - is this necromancy ? is it "This is totally not necromancy"ancy ? Maybe its "Its ok if alliance are doing it"ancy.

Because as it is, it seems to be exact same move sylvanas used in battle for undercity. And she is soooo evil.

The new lich king is a good guy, didn't you get the memo? :P

[Lorgar Aurelian]

As opposed to one Sylvanas blighting her troops? Yes, that's what I have, because that's all that is needed. But don't let me stop you in your glorious Alliance double-think /s

Actually, do let me stop you. Not only was it not one evil Gnome, because it's Mekkatorque who set off the nuke and Thermaplugg merely convinced him, but some famous Culling of an entire human city comes to my mind right now... No idea why.

So you don’t have any one who isn’t a rogue gnome or arthas? And you think that’s comparable to the warcheif shooting her own civs and gasing her own troops.

And no it wasn’t mekkatorque’s nuke.

- - - Updated - - -

9 pages and nobody mentioned the Tidesages?

Yes, Alliance using necromancy is old news for anyone who did Stormsong Valley. Y'know, that lil' quest where we ring the bell to collect souls, before releasing them into the sea.
And then we have the other quest where we collect the souls of slain traitor tidesages but instead of releasing them, use them to break the Shrine's gates.
And the whole implication Kul Tiran warships being all Flying Dutchmen to a degree, crewed by souls of the dead in addition to living men. And it's not Azshara's evil magic (we burn one ship that had its souls corrupted but that's it), it's a perfectly normal Tidesage thing.

Sure, it's not the same thing as raising skeletons but Kul Tiran religion has an extremely strong necromantic vibe, with all that "serving in death" part and Tidesages' control over souls of the dead.

Arnt the tide sages more or less shamans? Shamans interact with spirits without necromancy so it’s proabbly the same.

[Ordaine]

One time is hardly countless, but hey, I guess it's an YMMV type of thing.

I forgot people on the forums don't understand obvious exaggeration. Obviously it hasn't happened "countless times"...
No one ever remembers the wrath gate, south shore. Those are 2 more on top of Lordaeron.

But you keep dumping blight on your allies, you do you boo.

[Verdugo]

I forgot people on the forums don't understand obvious exaggeration. Obviously it hasn't happened "countless times"...
No one ever remembers the wrath gate, south shore. Those are 2 more on top of Lordaeron.

But you keep dumping blight on your allies, you do you boo.

Since when were Forsaken allied with Southshore.

[Ordaine]

Arnt the tide sages more or less shamans? Shamans interact with spirits without necromancy so it’s proabbly the same.

How dare you bring logic into the argument!?

They are just going to attempt to counter it with additional nonsense because the alliance are always wrong and the horde are always right.
It's very obvious they are shamanistic, and the spirits are also willing, at least on the end of the alliance and not the tidesages you are fighting to clear the corruption anyway.
Or we can compare it to the wrathgate or lordaeron where sylvanas dumped plague on her on people and raised them as skeletons and equate it to what the alliance did.

[Kaver]

So there is a funny thing i noticed in stormgarde warfront. After you progress a bit, some of alliance priests will cast a spell on friendly corpses summoning "Vengenful spirits" who attack horde.

So my question is - is this necromancy ? is it "This is totally not necromancy"ancy ? Maybe its "Its ok if alliance are doing it"ancy.

Because as it is, it seems to be exact same move sylvanas used in battle for undercity. And she is soooo evil.

Sylvanas kills her own troops... the Alliance don’t.

Sylvanas is a she-devil and the Horde are nothing more than beasts following her evil honourless schemes..

[Ordaine]

Since when were Forsaken allied with Southshore.

I used southshore as an example since the horde literally banned the use of plague and they dumped so much on the land, it became 100% unusable.
If you read the lore of the area, the forsaken dumped so much plague on the land, it is basically comparable to nuclear fallout and requires a "cooldown" period before it becomes inhabitable by the forsaken.
But 10/10 for ignoring the rest of the argument.

[iamthedevil]

Say that to banshee Sylvanas. I think she'd disagree with you.

In sylvanas' case specifically, arthas ripped her soul out, which isn't the same thing as being resurrected. Originally banshees weren't resurrected at all, they were vengeful spirits that were murdered.

[UnluckyAmateur]

It's the "It's ok when we do it." argument.

Difference being, the alliance isn't actively killing it's own troops to raise undead.