Is World of Warcraft going for more Japanese/Chinese way of MMO's?

[Jotunhammer]

I remember a few years ago, MMO that was a grind was hated by the western people and loved by the eastern
people. And a company like SE tried to introduce more quests into the Final Fantasy games and there was an
outcry among the Japanese fans that it was to many quests and to little grind.

They said then that the example of the western style of doing MMO was World of Warcraft.

Now...

Given the grind for rep...
Grind for Azerite
Grind for whatever else...

it seems to me that Blizzard given up on the quest part, instead they invest in time consuming grindfests

Is this to please the Asian markets, and they think that western players just don't care or what
could be behind this immense increase in grinding just to be allowed to continue the storyline etc.

[Thimagryn]

Grind was always in the game from the very beginning. It just wasn't as much for progression as it was for other things.

Winterspring mount. Ogre beads in Nagrand. Silk farming, Crusader Orbs farming, etc. Just the simple task of getting Attunements involved grinding too.

[Jazzhands]

I remember a few years ago, MMO that was a grind was hated by the western people and loved by the eastern
people. And a company like SE tried to introduce more quests into the Final Fantasy games and there was an
outcry among the Japanese fans that it was to many quests and to little grind.

They said then that the example of the western style of doing MMO was World of Warcraft.

Now...

Given the grind for rep...
Grind for Azerite
Grind for whatever else...

it seems to me that Blizzard given up on the quest part, instead they invest in time consuming grindfests

Is this to please the Asian markets, and they think that western players just don't care or what
could be behind this immense increase in grinding just to be allowed to continue the storyline etc.

I think you misunderstand. Eastern MMOs literally just grind monster over and over. Vanilla was the closest WoW will get to them, and that was no where near as bad, and we're far, far from Vanilla now. Eastern MMOs have a quest to kill 200 monsters instead of 5 quests to kill some monsters, gather things, and see story. The grinds we have in WoW are nothing like eastern MMO grinds, Azerite and rep all come from WQs or group based activites, you don't just go in the world and slay monsters for 2 azerite a pop. If wow were an eastern MMO, you'd get all your rep from a few "Kill 100 monsters here" quests and have 2-3 dungeons to grind for gear and a single raid, for the first 2 years or so of the game. And you'd be happy.

An example: When Aion first launched, you'd run out of quests around 23, level cap was 50. Each zone after the first few had enough quests for maybe half a level, then it was grinding. The final level took ~8000 mobs or so. Just for 49-50.

Wow really isn't that bad of a grind.

[shadowmatrix]

Everytime one of these threads show up it clearly shows who didn't play MMOs early on, the grind these days isn't very much compared to how it used to be.

[Eleccybubb]

The complaint wasn't that there were too many quests in FF14.

It's that there were too many breadcrumb quests with no value whatsoever tied to the main story. I'd advise you research into that and learn what "outcry" is.

And no. This is nowhere near an old style MMO or Eastern MMO. If you think it is then you are delusional.

[Kathranis]

MMOs really aren't even popular in Japan, and FFXIV is a straight up WoW clone. WoW doesn't even have a Japanese version. I think you're thinking of Korean MMOs.

And WQs are nothing like the way Korean MMOs are designed. In Korean MMOs you just kill monsters over and over, with few if any quests to direct your play. And most Korean MMOs these days are more like hack and slash dungeon crawlers, frankly, with action-based gameplay.

[Jotunhammer]

Grind was always in the game from the very beginning. It just wasn't as much for progression as it was for other things.

Winterspring mount. Ogre beads in Nagrand. Silk farming, Crusader Orbs farming, etc. Just the simple task of getting Attunements involved grinding too.

For sure, for extra stuff there always been a grind, but not for continuing the storyline, not for necessity in order to progress.
Thats been spun into the game more and more, flying for example, thats a major grind last few expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

I think you misunderstand. Eastern MMOs literally just grind monster over and over. Vanilla was the closest WoW will get to them, and that was no where near as bad, and we're far, far from Vanilla now. Eastern MMOs have a quest to kill 200 monsters instead of 5 quests to kill some monsters, gather things, and see story. The grinds we have in WoW are nothing like eastern MMO grinds, Azerite and rep all come from WQs or group based activites, you don't just go in the world and slay monsters for 2 azerite a pop. If wow were an eastern MMO, you'd get all your rep from a few "Kill 100 monsters here" quests and have 2-3 dungeons to grind for gear and a single raid, for the first 2 years or so of the game. And you'd be happy.

An example: When Aion first launched, you'd run out of quests around 23, level cap was 50. Each zone after the first few had enough quests for maybe half a level, then it was grinding. The final level took ~8000 mobs or so. Just for 49-50.

Wow really isn't that bad of a grind.

Yeah, I remember launch of Aion, it was horrible grind, but then consider where Aion was made, grind fest territory.

What my meaning was we are heading closer and closer with all the grind thats been added. We are not "there" yet but it seems to me
that there is a major grind last few expansion. I remember for example in BC, I could go through entire expansion without grinding was
ANYWHERE as much as it is for getting 7th legion rep or azerite for gear now.

[Talon8669]

I remember a few years ago, MMO that was a grind was hated by the western people and loved by the eastern
people. And a company like SE tried to introduce more quests into the Final Fantasy games and there was an
outcry among the Japanese fans that it was to many quests and to little grind.

They said then that the example of the western style of doing MMO was World of Warcraft.

Now...

Given the grind for rep...
Grind for Azerite
Grind for whatever else...

it seems to me that Blizzard given up on the quest part, instead they invest in time consuming grindfests

Is this to please the Asian markets, and they think that western players just don't care or what
could be behind this immense increase in grinding just to be allowed to continue the storyline etc.

Nothing in BfA can be compared to grinding in an Asian MMORPG. I do miss some grinding though. Like back in TBC farming motes of fire to craft the (3) piece cloth set that was arguably massively OP for what it was. Or having to farm for a rare drop recipes like the crusader enchant.

[Jotunhammer]

The complaint wasn't that there were too many quests in FF14.

It's that there were too many breadcrumb quests with no value whatsoever tied to the main story. I'd advise you research into that and learn what "outcry" is.

And no. This is nowhere near an old style MMO or Eastern MMO. If you think it is then you are delusional.

I was there, I saw what I sawa for FFXIV at first launch and I watched the forums. What you may call outcry is not always what I would. But there was
those that said that FF was going to much towards western style of MMO. and yes one of the complaints was worthless no point quests.

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing in BfA can be compared to grinding in an Asian MMORPG. I do miss some grinding though. Like back in TBC farming motes of fire to craft the (3) piece cloth set that was arguably massively OP for what it was. Or having to farm for a rare drop recipes like the crusader enchant.

Heh, I got lucky and had crusader in less than 3 days of maybe 2-3 hrs per day trying

[Eleccybubb]

I was there, I saw what I sawa for FFXIV at first launch and I watched the forums. What you may call outcry is not always what I would. But there was
those that said that FF was going to much towards western style of MMO. and yes one of the complaints was worthless no point quests.

No it wasn't.

It was that the Main Story of 2.0-2.55 had way too many breadcrumb quests. Which is why Heavensward and Stormblood toned down the amount of post 60 and 70 story and condensed it into a more constructive story. It was valid criticism of the main story.

People were doing side quests and levequests in 14. Levequests were arguably one of the best ways of levelling crafters and gatherers and still are. Some sidequests award nice little fluff stuff like a minion or title as well such as the Postmoogle side quests.

And if you are referring to 1.0 by "first launch" then the entire game was a mess. Hence why it was rebuilt from the ground up into A Realm Reborn. Quests were just one of many issues with the original incarnation of FF14 so it's a pointless observation now since that version of the game is gone and buried.

1.0 was reviled for many reasons. Quests, jobs not being in at launch, barely any dungeons or endgame content, horrible archaic systems from the oldschool MMOs and terrible optimisation even on high end pcs.

[RobertMugabe]

I remember a few years ago, MMO that was a grind was hated by the western people and loved by the eastern
people. And a company like SE tried to introduce more quests into the Final Fantasy games and there was an
outcry among the Japanese fans that it was to many quests and to little grind.

They said then that the example of the western style of doing MMO was World of Warcraft.

Now...

Given the grind for rep...
Grind for Azerite
Grind for whatever else...

it seems to me that Blizzard given up on the quest part, instead they invest in time consuming grindfests

Is this to please the Asian markets, and they think that western players just don't care or what
could be behind this immense increase in grinding just to be allowed to continue the storyline etc.

Your entire thread is invalid since BfA has more quests than Legion, but the azerite grind is also less important than the artifact grind. Also the Nightborne rep grind took longer than any faction in BfA does.

Adding to that vanilla offered less quests and was originally even meant to be mainly an MMO where you'd grind rather than quest.

[Jazzhands]

For sure, for extra stuff there always been a grind, but not for continuing the storyline, not for necessity in order to progress.
Thats been spun into the game more and more, flying for example, thats a major grind last few expansion.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah, I remember launch of Aion, it was horrible grind, but then consider where Aion was made, grind fest territory.

What my meaning was we are heading closer and closer with all the grind thats been added. We are not "there" yet but it seems to me
that there is a major grind last few expansion. I remember for example in BC, I could go through entire expansion without grinding was
ANYWHERE as much as it is for getting 7th legion rep or azerite for gear now.

Dailies in BC weren't a grind? I remember doing 25 a day, I had a path. I could use the engineering item to teleport to Blades Edge for Ogri'la, then take a FP from there to Skyguard, then fly from Skyguard to Netherwing. 25 quests, the cap, every day. It took a lot longer than 2-3 weeks to max, but probably the same amount of time spent if we compare it to WQs. Now I just do the daily Emissary and call it done. I'll have the reps maxed eventually, and probably have spent less over all time than I did in BC thanks to emissary rep bonuses.

There was also the other Reputations, like Aldor/Scryer, where you farmed monsters for drops to turn in, I spent hours on my rogue doing this in Netherstorm for the 1h epic sword from Aldor. Or Lower city/CE, where you farmed dungeons (SL/SV) over and over and over for item drops. If you were a casual player, these reps were sometimes your only way to get epic items, and a few of these items, like the Cenarion Expedition 2h Hammer for Bear druids, were BiS until t5 raids, or at least pre-raid BiS, and an item you'd use for weeks instead of days. Aldor/Scryer rep was needed for shoulder enchants, so any raider needed that maxed.

Did we play the same expansion?

Edit: I forgot to mention, Netherwing was a faction that needed epic flying and a zone long quest chain to unlock. You had to pay 5000g to unlock the privilege to grind that rep and stand there waiting for ravagers to respawn in that god damn cave for half an hour.

[Mafic]

Yes, because Asian grinders rely on time metrics as you pay by the hour and not monthly.

[Jotunhammer]

Yes I was refering to 1.0
and yes, it was horrible.

[Eleccybubb]

Yes I was refering to 1.0
and yes, it was horrible.

Then pointless comparison. It's a shut down game. And if you seriously think WoW is in any way comparable to 1.0 then just no. It really wasn't.

WoW didn't have 4 dungeons.
When you gem on WoW it doesn't have a chance to fail and break your gear. (Materia Melding in 1.0)
WoW has a fair amount of endgame.
WoW doesn't slow down your XP if you keep at it.
WoW has all it's classes implemented and ready to play. FF14 didn't have jobs in at launch for 6 months or so.

I could go on. You want to use a comparison? Then compare the current version of FF14 that is up.

1.0 was not designed like an Eastern MMO. It was designed by a team heavily influenced by older mechanics and FF11.

I was a 1.0 player. It was the most horrid MMO ever released at that time. It is in no way comparable to the WoW of today. WoW beats it by a country mile.

Now as for the FF14 of today. Both it and WoW have their good and bad points. But overall each game is good in their own way.

[KainneAbsolute]

Yeah, because today is more grindy...getting 500 rep from killing Cthun vs 1500 for 4 WQ...

[Jotunhammer]

Your entire thread is invalid since BfA has more quests than Legion, but the azerite grind is also less important than the artifact grind. Also the Nightborne rep grind took longer than any faction in BfA does.

Adding to that vanilla offered less quests and was originally even meant to be mainly an MMO where you'd grind rather than quest.

Legion had a quest chain, something you could follow. BfA has a needle in a haystack of stories, its all around the place and then to tie it down youd basically have to remember everyone that done everything. and yeah, I did not grind for nightborne, I did for the alliance version, and yes, again the 7th legion for 21k for the new dawrf races. necessary? no. but my point is that it could have been implemented through quest chains, through raids as it was before, and storyline done it that way, it has been made easier and harder, but I guess I am just tired of logging in running around doing WQ for rep all day long. and would MUCH rather push the storyline than run around doing same quests day in and day out.

[Wraethion]

Vanilla was definitely the closest it would ever get to an eastern mmo.

The main reason they implemented quests that weren't simply just "go there" was due to a pathing problem for players who were going into zones that was too hard for them. That the questing was to help players be prepared enough for the next zone. That is the reason there doesn't seem to be enough quests in Vanilla and how people talk of needing to grind to get the last few levels to hit cap.

If it weren't for that problem, you were going to be doing the southpark way and grind on mobs until you dinged to 60.

[Dracullus]

Since Legion you have choice - grind or timegate. For example reputation - you can grind every WQ and get it quicker or do emissary and do it slower, but without grind. Ask yourself what you prefer more.

[Thimagryn]

For sure, for extra stuff there always been a grind, but not for continuing the storyline, not for necessity in order to progress.
Thats been spun into the game more and more, flying for example, thats a major grind last few expansion.

That's a bit misleading since you're trying to equate progress now to 'extra stuff' back then, when progress in doing anything can be considered 'extra stuff'. Flying isn't any less progress than attunements in Vanilla or rep to get a new mount. Progress is relative to the player, and even Azerite grind can be considered optional if you were a very casual player.

You just perceive progress differently because the game makes it feel like you're going to fall behind if you don't keep doing your weeklies rather than in Vanilla where it was just a 'let you play at your own pace' mentality. In a way, the Vanilla method was more like Asian MMO's since your grind wasn't time gated and you were literally pouring days into doing certain things rather than just capping out for the week.