The Kul Tiran and the Drust

[Combatbutler]

It's the same if the orcs landed in a place the quilboar weren't using, and the quilboar attacked the orcs without warning to try and wipe them out, and then the orcs fought back the quilboar in retaliation. If I'm remembering things right though it was more the orcs showed up, wanted that land and just took it from the quilboar.

The Quilboar were hostile regardless, but are they in the wrong to fight for the land they consider theirs? That is the core issue here are the natives allowed to drive off anyone they don't want in their vicinity or are outlanders allowed to settle there and the ones living there just suck it up, should the Amani have left the high elves and humans be, despite stealing their land? Should the ogres have led the Draenei settle on the ruins of their old capital unchallenged, despite considering it theirs?

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It is at one point stated through questing that the humans settled in the land and got attacked by the Drust first. The to-become-Kul Tiran people did not go there to conquer the Drust, but had to fight them to survive.

This has been addressed many times and doesn't really change a thing. They settled there and that mere presence angered most of the natives and the settlers chose to try and keep their new land.

[Magnagarde]

This has been addressed many times and doesn't really change a thing. They settled there and that mere presence angered most of the natives and they chose to try and keep their land.

"Their land". Land that they do not use, build upon or live off of isn't "their land".

It changes a lot. Motivation for said actions changes everything.

[Combatbutler]

"Their land". Land that they do not use, build upon or live off of isn't "their land".

Yes it is, just as the high elves triggered the troll wars, just as the humans started the conflicts with the trolls, just because a nation currently has no one on that territory doesn't make it any less part of said territory. Humanity took each and every piece of land it owns today from someone else, that is a historic fact that. That they committed genocide at one point or another was a logical consequence of their massive expansion over the last few thousand years.

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"

It changes a lot. Motivation for said actions changes everything.

They were not discouraged enough by the natives using force to drive them out to keep the land, what makes you think they would have given up the settlements if they wanted them gone through dialogue?

They sued for peace with the intention to keep the land, that alone is quite a ballsy move to make.

[Magnagarde]

Yes it is, just as the high elves triggered the troll wars, just as the humans started the conflicts with the trolls, just because a nation currently has no one on that territory doesn't make it any less part of said territory. Humanity took each and every piece of land it owns today from someone else, that is a historic fact that. That they committed genocide at one point or another was a logical consequence of their massive expansion over the last few thousand years.

If we're to take what you say for what you claim it apparently describes, then everyone took everyone's land and the only rightful rulers of Azeroth are the elemental lords and everyone who has ever settled anywhere has had to commit some form of genocide.

That is not true however. Benevolent living beings allow other living beings to settle and coexist.

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They were not discouraged enough by the natives using force to drive them out to keep the land, what makes you think they would have given up the settlements if they wanted them gone through dialogue?

They sued for peace with the intention to keep the land, that alone is quite a ballsy move to make.

I won't dwell into headcanon speculation what possibly encouraged or discouraged whom from what. We know that the humans arrived there seeking a place to live, they settled on available land and got attacked by the Drust who though themselves the owners of the entire island.

The land one doesn't use is not their land and I mean this in the most obvious and blatant example of not even living on it. The one example of infringement is Arom's Stand, though that was however built after the fated fight against the Drust as a testament to victory.

[Combatbutler]

If we're to take what you say for what you claim it apparently describes, then everyone took everyone's land and the only rightful rulers of Azeroth are the elemental lords.

No it just means everyone is shitty and instead of going on about how some have the moral highground, discard that shit and accept that the races of Azeroth commit genocide from time to time and that might makes right. People argue the Kul'tirans were right in doing what they did the answer is no, what the drust did was also extreme, but both are ultimately equally shitty people, with the drust in the better "moral" position due to the mere fact that they were there first.

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The land one doesn't use is not their land and I mean this in the most obvious and blatant example of not even living on it.

Good someone tell the naga they can settle every last Azerothian beach, except those that have a harbor.

[Magnagarde]

No it just means everyone is shitty and instead of going on about how some have the moral highground, discard that shit and accept that the races of Azeroth commit genocide from time to time and that might makes right.

I won't accept that because you're not right and because it is not the truth. There's a difference between settling on a piece of land because you wish to live and exist and outright conquering land by slaughtering with no questions asked and no intent on keeping any other sides involved alive.

Peaceful coexistence can happen.

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Good someone tell the naga they can settle every last Azerothian beach, except those that have a harbor.

The Naga have forfeit their right by clearly becoming villains and with their queen selling Azeroth out to Sargeras prior to pledging herself to the Old God N'zoth.

You clearly seem to be intentelly oblivious of the motivations and moral background of the actions you bring up.

[Combatbutler]

I won't accept that because you're not right and because it is not the truth.

Peaceful coexistence can happen.

When has it ever happened? The humans literally stole their land from the trolls, the elves stole their land from the trolls, the draenei stole it from the ogres, the orcs took it from the Quilboar etc.

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The Naga have forfeit their right by clearly becoming villains and with their queen selling Azeroth out to Sargeras prior to pledging herself to the Old God N'zoth.

You clearly seem to be intentelly oblivious of the motivations and moral background of the actions you bring up.

Oh so you get to decide who can settle where now? But the land is unused just because you don't like them doesn't mean they cannot settle were they want. They want those beaches they are unused so up for the taking or better yet murlocs take up shop there.

Arguing such things is meaningless that is the point the naga have as much right to the beaches as anyone if they have the power to enforce their dominion and that is it. It is a shitty way but it is the way of Azeroth and it has been that way every since it housed life.

[Magnagarde]

When has it ever happened? The humans literally stole their land from the trolls, the elves stole their land from the trolls, the draenei stole it from the ogres, the orcs took it from the Quilboar etc.

It happened with the draenei on Draenor. The most obvious and first example that comes to mind.

The involvement of the Burning Legion, which lead to the slaughter of the draenei, is an unrelated third-party factor.

[Combatbutler]

It happened with the draenei on Draenor. The most obvious and first example that comes to mind.

The involvement of the Burning Legion, which lead to the slaughter of the draenei, is an unrelated third-party factor.

The Draenei fought a war with ogres over their old capital, because they were currently rebuilding, what gave them the right to take the ancient capital away from the ogres and plant shatttrath there? The answer they were strong enough to drive the ogres off.

[Magnagarde]

Oh so you get to decide who can settle where now? But the land is unused just because you don't like them doesn't mean they cannot settle were they want. They want those beaches they are unused so up for the taking or better yet murlocs take up shop there

I don't get to decide, logic does. When you sell the world out to a demonic titan which will inevitably see to its end, then it is obvious that other lifeforms will save their existence.

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The Draenei fought a war with ogres over their old capital, because they were currently rebuilding, what gave them the right to take the ancient capital away from the ogres and plant shatttrath there? The answer they were strong enough to drive the ogres off.

I am talking about the peace between the draenei and the orcs.

[Combatbutler]

I don't get to decide, logic does. When you sell the world out to a demonic titan which will inevitably see to its end, then it is obvious that other lifeforms will save their existence.

Logic decides, that those who are strong enough to keep the land get to have it not those who have noble aspirations. Such is the way of life, survival of the fittest. every last race on Azeroth can lose or gain massive amounts of territory, deserved or undeserved does not matter.

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I am talking about the peace between the draenei and the orcs.

And conveniently ignoring the ogres.

And the fact that orcs constantly raided draenei caravans, capturing and raping Draenei, something which Velen chose to ignore.

[Ardac]

I doubt it, the thornspeakers sided with the kultirans.

and the Eredar sided with the Legion. Just because part of your people sides with your enemy doesnt mean that is the good side. Just an example, not saying the KT are like the legion.

Another big thing here is that while questing with Lucille Waycrest, you both find out that Gorak Tul only started using constructs when he was losing and needed to increase his numbers. So there is sides of the story thats Lucille doesn't know by her own admission.

See my personal POV is that when the KT humans docked on this land and encountered the Drust, If the Drust tried to wipe them out, they would have done it if the humans arrived with peaceful intentions. But before people hope on high horses, every wow expansion is based around us going to a new land and going full murder hobo on anyone on that land that looks at us cross eyed. The player characters are worse then any faction haha.

[The Stormbringer]

By giving up land, which he had absolutely no obligation to do so.

Land that they weren't using or inhabiting at the time. They could've at least tried warning the Kul Tirans first, demanding they leave or there will be war, or demanding compensation for the Kul Tirans moving onto their lands.

[Combatbutler]

Land that they weren't using or inhabiting at the time. They could've at least tried warning the Kul Tirans first, demanding they leave or there will be war, or demanding compensation for the Kul Tirans moving onto their lands.

They sidestepped diplomacy and threw an axe in their face, that is the ultimate you are not welcome here card. And the Kul'tirans decided lets see about that.

[Florena]

The Quilboar were hostile regardless, but are they in the wrong to fight for the land they consider theirs? That is the core issue here are the natives allowed to drive off anyone they don't want in their vicinity or are outlanders allowed to settle there and the ones living there just suck it up, should the Amani have left the high elves and humans be, despite stealing their land? Should the ogres have led the Draenei settle on the ruins of their old capital unchallenged, despite considering it theirs?

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This has been addressed many times and doesn't really change a thing. They settled there and that mere presence angered most of the natives and the settlers chose to try and keep their new land.

But were the Kul'tirans 'stealing' land? It sounds like they settled nearby and weren't taking anything from the Drust or bothering them in any way, then BAM drust attack and kill them. It's only a war of self defense/protecting your lands.

[Combatbutler]

But were the Kul'tirans 'stealing' land? It sounds like they settled nearby and weren't taking anything from the Drust or bothering them in any way, then BAM drust attack and kill them. It's only a war of self defense/protecting your lands.

The Drust were the only sentient race on Kul'tiras before the settlers came, the Drust settlements were in drustvar that doesn't mean they would be fine with others settling on "their Island".

[Izalla]

But were the Kul'tirans 'stealing' land? It sounds like they settled nearby and weren't taking anything from the Drust or bothering them in any way, then BAM drust attack and kill them. It's only a war of self defense/protecting your lands.

Far as I remember they didn't settle in Drustvar, they settled elsewhere. I assume Tiragarde. Then the Drust came down out of Drustvar to slaughter them. Way later when Lord Waycrest fought the Drust back and eventually beat them he settled in Drustvar. If the Drust had left them alone and stayed in their home and just let the humans settle down there would have been no conflict.

[Magnagarde]

Logic decides, that those who are strong enough to keep the land get to have it not those who have noble aspirations. Such is the way of life, survival of the fittest. every last race on Azeroth can lose or gain massive amounts of territory, deserved or undeserved does not matter.

These are different aspects to consider. Strenght and morality. Strenght can be used as tool to enforce morally benevolent actions, not just for conquest. It can definitely be used to survival, but survival doesn't exclude previously trying to sort things out for the best of all sides.

You called arrogance on my take that the naga can't keep their land for what they've done in the past, but you are intentionally ignoring what I've stated above. Your comparison with the naga is off by miles.



If you think that the naga deserve to have land and that there's absolutely no difference between any of the races on Azeroth because all that matters is their strenght, then I see no point in trying to reply to you on this matter.

[Combatbutler]

Far as I remember they didn't settle in Drustvar, they settled elsewhere. I assume Tiragarde. Then the Drust came down out of Drustvar to slaughter them. Way later when Lord Waycrest fought the Drust back and eventually beat them he settled in Drustvar. If the Drust had left them alone and stayed in their home and just let the humans settle down there would have been no conflict.

If they had no problem with strangers on their island yes, but apparently they had one and the humans decided to ignore the very clear message the drust gave them and decided to solve the matter differently, the Humans too had a choice and that was pack up and leave but they didn't want to, so they chose to fight back.

[Magnagarde]

And conveniently ignoring the ogres.

You asked whenever peaceful coexistence happened. I gave you an example of it. You moved goalposts and then involved another party to somehow make it a trilateral arrangement. You could then make it quadrilateral, pentalateral and so on untill at least one of the involved sides had conflict with one of the parties involved.

Peaceful coexistence can happen, but it takes giving and taking with compromise.