If we didn't nuke Japan, would the outcome have been any different?

[Dadwen]

I am absolutely not downplaying the impact Great Britain had on the War, I was just indicating the tides turned when America put all their chips in.

Isoroku Yamamoto himself knew that they had doomed the Axis war-front, which is why he did not celebrate Pearl Harbor he simply told his men the famous quote "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." He then stepped down as a Navy Admiral and was killed in a Dog fight above China against American Pilots.

Was not saying you were, it was more of a side comment to the others guys (it was all the USSR blonoey) Without Britain holding out and giving\keeping us a foot hold for Europe and adding the US production and bombing (if Germany had been able to keep up full production Stalin would have had a much tougher fight) were major winning factors. and for the most part the Defeat of the Japanese was mostly on the US efforts, I know Britain didn't have a much into it (not saying they didn't have losses in the pacific though) unlike USSR the US was fighting a two front war the entire time from 41-45, which should give some insight in the bitterness between the US and Japan (and the decision to push the A-bombs being dropped).

*the quote part from Churchill was him basically saying once the US had got into the war it was as good as won.. (Seems both Stalin and Churchill knew the US needed to be in the game for them to win)

[Canpinter]

I've been interested recently in statistics that show how Germany wasn't nearly as dominant as they seemed to have been. They actually were outnumbered and outgunned when they invaded France. It was just that their organization and aggressiveness left the French disorganized and cut off from each other. They actually didn't have a significant advantage until they captured France (and all the French equipment).

Germany absolutely could have won the war, don't get me wrong. Russia was never going to be able to successfully invade (they didn't have the infrastructure), and the UK was bottled up. But they fucked up when they allied with Japan, and also when they invaded Russia.

I think we could look back at a lot of wars in history and see that surprising early victories came from the side that was outnumbered, knew it, and went balls out, where the other side was more timid. That's certainly what happened in the early part of the Civil War.

Honestly i think there biggest fuck up was not having more uboats to start the war with, a decisive victory in the battle of the Atlantic could have staved the English into submission, and without a base of operations close to the European main coast no way the americans could have launched an effective dday.

[Independent voter]

So putting the pro US arguments together

1. Stalin said "good, I hope you use it on them" when Truman told Stalin about the bomb.

2. The British gave us the idea for building the bomb and sent British scientists to work on it. Canada provided uranium and scientists and Australia provided at least one scientist.

3. We dropped leaflets warning Japanese citizens to evacuate Hiroshima and Nagasaki before we bombed them.

4. Germany sent Japan over 200kg of processed uranium on a submarine days before Germany surrendered. Every player had an atomic bomb program, the US, Germany, Japan and Russia.

5. When the Emperor decided to surrender, the Japanese military launched a coup against him, wanting to continue the war.

6. The other choice was a land invasion, the US built 4 hospitals on an island they took from the Japanese, each hospital could hold a 1,000 men. The US also printed 750,000 purple hearts, the medal you get for being wounded in action.

7. A land invasion would've killed more civilians than the atomic bombs.

[Collegeguy]

Rofl Some retards in this topic really think that Japs was the victims in that war?? What is wrong with you people?? I understand Trolling but you are sick in the heads... Jap's murdered hundreds of thousands of people in Asia! Paile them like rugs and burn alive . Comited the worst War Crimes worst then Nazi!

True, there were many crimes against humanity that never saw justice and for decades Japan as a nation tried to pretend "we were just evil, murdering Showa fascists on a Saturday, but it's Sunday now . Saturday never happened."

[CatsNeverDie]

I do not know the details of the situation at the time and options available to everyone. But you can not justify killing millions of innocent people with a Nuke.

[lummiuster]

how much of that 90% if that high, was built with US machines we sent over, materials and how much of it moved with ships and trains and trucks we shipped over.
Again just sent wave after wave of his own people to their death some times at gun point, if Britain had not worn down the Luftwaffe Germany would have gone through Russia like a hot knife though butter.
how much of the Pacific war did they fought.. (the war was not just Germany, you know, looks at the other country in the title of this thread) and people call a majority of us American disillusion on their part in WWII.

till 1943 Russia had the Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact, (they seemed good at trying to buddy up to the enemy and then it not turning out good).

The US had both from 41 on till the end, USSR just had Germany from 41 (few more months than the US) and no Japan till 43.

*and again to quote Stalin own words "Without American production the United Nations could never have won the war."

This war was literally KingKong fighting vs giant dinosaur and some humans (UK, USA, CAN) shot a missile on the back of the dinosaur so that kingkong could beat him with the final punch while he was looking in the back. This is the best analogy, everyone contributed but the fight was between the 2 giants (URSS and Germany). If URSS had lost, it would have been the end of europe/america.

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I guess you're going to be raising your hand more in high school history class? I bolded the parts where you demonstrated your own ignorance. But good idea studying world history once you're in college. You could learn some facts then!

Lol why are you even mentioning school? There is no way a kid like you with a trump profile even finished highschool.

[cubby]

This war was literally KingKong fighting vs giant dinosaur and some humans (UK, USA, CAN) shot a missile on the back of the dinosaur so that kingkong could beat him with the final punch while he was looking in the back. This is the best analogy, everyone contributed but the fight was between the 2 giants (URSS and Germany). If URSS had lost, it would have been the end of europe/america.

Your statements here only prove that whatever you had been given to read, you just threw away. Ignorance is not something to be flaunted here, and that's all you're doing. To say that the United States didn't play a pivotal role in defeating Germany is just stupid.

Lol why are you even mentioning school? There is no way a kid like you with a trump profile even finished highschool.

Proof you don't read what you see. Read the words in my avatar, don't just look at the pretty picture.

[lummiuster]

Your statements here only prove that whatever you had been given to read, you just threw away. Ignorance is not something to be flaunted here, and that's all you're doing. To say that the United States didn't play a pivotal role in defeating Germany is just stupid.




Proof you don't read what you see. Read the words in my avatar, don't just look at the pretty picture.

For real stop trying. I won't argue with an uneducated kid. There is no way a dude who likes Trump can be smart. Just that you like him means that you were ignorant enough to believe his obvious bs and that you are unable to check facts. You are just doing the same thing with this subject where you obviously never checked facts and believed crap from another ignorant.

[Independent voter]

I do not know the details of the situation at the time and options available to everyone. But you can not justify killing millions of innocent people with a Nuke.

Both the bombs combined didn't kill a million people.

Don't think so poorly of your country.

[cubby]

For real stop trying. I won't argue with an uneducated kid. There is no way a dude who likes Trump can be smart. Just that you like him means that you were ignorant enough to believe his obvious bs and that you are unable to check facts. You are just doing the same thing with this subject where you obviously never checked facts and believed crap from another ignorant.

So you didn't even read the avatar? I find it adorable that you're proving your own idiocy, and we just get to watch.

But please, do go on about how the US didn't do anything of significant to defeat Germany. /popcorn

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I do not know the details of the situation at the time and options available to everyone. But you can not justify killing millions of innocent people with a Nuke.

You and this other guy ought to get a room with some books and actually learn about what you're commenting on. The death toll from both nukes dropped is under 500,000. Which is a LOT, I'l grant you, but not "millions".

[draynay]

I wish I could resist the urge to post in historical threads, they all end up like this, with the loudest most ignorant person calling everyone else ignorant.

[cubby]

I wish I could resist the urge to post in historical threads, they all end up like this, with the loudest most ignorant person calling everyone else ignorant.

That phenomenon doesn't seem limited to just historical forum threads. We seem to be swimming in loudmouth idiots atm.

[draynay]

That phenomenon doesn't seem limited to just historical forum threads. We seem to be swimming in loudmouth idiots atm.

Its easier for me to avoid those, and less upsetting since I'm not as invested.

[Dadwen]

This war was literally KingKong fighting vs giant dinosaur and some humans (UK, USA, CAN) shot a missile on the back of the dinosaur so that kingkong could beat him with the final punch while he was looking in the back. This is the best analogy, everyone contributed but the fight was between the 2 giants (URSS and Germany). If URSS had lost, it would have been the end of europe/america.

umm nah if the USSR lost, we would have just mopped up what was left at our own pace, we at that point already had control over the sky's (and the Germans had little navel to reach us) and while or production was going up the Germans were still going down due to non stop bombing, but the after war would have been much more peaceful if the Germans had taken the USSR (hell a mild winter and they just might have, not saying it didn't hurt the Russia's, it just hurt the Germans 3x that)

[DinardJoulien]

I do not know the details of the situation at the time and options available to everyone. But you can not justify killing millions of innocent people with a Nuke.

Actually you can, if all other options are worse.

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Hard long bitter what? USA involvement in WW2 was almost negligible. URSS did 90% of it. They had both Germany and Japan has neighbor. All USA did was help rescue France from few people while URSS and Germany were fighting all in. Then at the end they dared to ask for half of Germany. And so why URSS didnt nuke Japan when they were still at war with them if a bitter war would be a reasonable excsuse?

I don't know what history books you was reading, but they must have been pretty shit.

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Considering the war was already won... It was the biggest war crime ever.

And to all that will answer telling me that aint true. Read some history books. I mean, real history books.

I think you should follow through your own advice, because, you are spouting nonsense.

[Hinastorm]

The outcome? (japan ultimately losing the war) no, of course not. All it did was speed things up.

I'm sure entire careers have been dedicated to figuring out if a longer conflict would of been a net better outcome than 2 nukes.

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For real stop trying. I won't argue with an uneducated kid. There is no way a dude who likes Trump can be smart. Just that you like him means that you were ignorant enough to believe his obvious bs and that you are unable to check facts. You are just doing the same thing with this subject where you obviously never checked facts and believed crap from another ignorant.

Yikes dude, you got owned when called out that you dident read his avatar, just give up at that point. You don't have to apologize, but don't dig in deeper for god sakes.

[Teri]

I don't know what history books you was reading, but they must have been pretty shit.

It's not nonsense, depending on context.

While the US/Allies did great work with Western/Southern Europe & anti-ship/submarine operations, it was the USSR/Winter that greatly weakened the main force of the Wehrmacht in the East.

US/Allied Countries also caused a lot of technological and logistical setbacks to Germany by using intel/commando's. (Included the Nazi atomic bomb project)

USSR had by far the biggest casualty count in the entire war, at over 20 million total, 11 million military.

China lost over 15 million as well, and 3 of that being military.

However, US also did do a lot of work in the pacific and other ocean regions obiously.

I know you can't base contribution on casualty numbers, because US had 400k, still a lot in context, but pale by the millions of others.

[DinardJoulien]

It's not nonsense, depending on context.

While the US/Allies did great work with Western/Southern Europe & anti-ship/submarine operations, it was the USSR/Winter that greatly weakened the main force of the Wehrmacht in the East.

US/Allied Countries also caused a lot of technological and logistical setbacks to Germany by using intel/commando's. (Included the Nazi atomic bomb project)

USSR had by far the biggest casualty count in the entire war, at over 20 million total, 11 million military.

China lost over 15 million as well, and 3 of that being military.

However, US also did do a lot of work in the pacific and other ocean regions obiously.

I know you can't base contribution on casualty numbers, because US had 400k, still a lot in context, but pale by the millions of others.

Yes, Soviets took the main brunt of the attack and had the biggest casualties, one need to be crazy to deny it, it doesn't mean that US participation in the war amounted to nothing and was "negligible".

[zealo]

I do not know the details of the situation at the time and options available to everyone. But you can not justify killing millions of innocent people with a Nuke.

First, death tolls of the nukes were closer to a quarter of a million.
That aside, it is no exaggeration that the option of staging an invasion of mainland Japan would have been incredibly costly in terms of human life.

The ferocity of the fighting in the battle of Okinawa just before it, taken to be used as a staging ground, had a casualty toll of some 150k military servicemen iirc, and the scale of what was to be the allied invasion of Japan utterly dwarfed that, on both sides.

[Deferionus]

There's been a lot of bad things said about MacArthur, and many of them were justified. However, he handled the surrender and the occupation very well. It could have gone very badly.

After WWII both Germany and Japan were handled well by the allies. Both countries became close allies and today have strong economies. If they handled it poorly Europe would have remained a powder keg waiting to blow for WWIII.