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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Dude no offense, but you are the one who is trying to push groundbreaking theory that completely changes how night elves are.

    And your arguments are...well...weak.
    Well how unfortunate then it is for me. I'm more of the quality over quantity type of guy and have high standards for QC pass. I'd like to see how really weak my "claim" is with the likes of your views that would provide stress and tension until mine breaks apart and fall into piece. Let's continue disproving my stand until it's "not strong enough".

    Don't worry I'll supply further details that you might be ignorant of. Well,that's a bit harsh so let's just say it slipped past your awareness.

    Have you heard about wisp taking possession of live bodies?

  2. #122
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    Well how unfortunate then it is for me. I'm more of the quality over quantity type of guy and have high standards for QC pass. I'd like to see how really weak my "claim" is with the likes of your views that would provide stress and tension until mine breaks apart and fall into piece. Let's continue disproving my stand until it's "not strong enough".

    Don't worry I'll supply further details that you might be ignorant of. Well,that's a bit harsh so let's just say it slipped past your awareness.

    Have you heard about wisp taking possession of live bodies?
    I mean your entire point boils to the "Night elves practice death-slavery on race-wide scale". It is kinda...far-fetched.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I mean your entire point boils to the "Night elves practice death-slavery on race-wide scale". It is kinda...far-fetched.
    Title: Malfurion and the Dark side of DRUIDISM

    If the wisp sacrifice is too much for you to handle then let's have a look at the War of Thorns per se.

    Let's start here:

    "The Horde started by striking hard in Astranaar, burning the village and decimating its forces. They then progressed into Darkshore, where Malfurion confronted Sylvanas. He raised an immense, magical wall of wisps that blocked their way.
    The Horde thus fell back onto Zoram'gar Outpost, with their intention to conquer the World Tree now clear. Malfurion ordered Delaryn to find any defenders she could rally at Lor'danel."

    This is what happened in between some events:

    "When the champions arrived, the village was burning. Bodies littered the ground. They found Captain Summermoon kneeling before the corpse of Captain Alennah Starsong. She explained that they tried to set a trap for the Horde, but it failed, and they could not stop them. Their outposts were taken by surprise, falling one by one, the guards poisoned. Not even the civilians were spared. The loss of life was clearly visible by the abundance of wisps.[8] Despite the urgency of the situation, Summermoon insisted for the bodies of the fallen soldiers to be honored properly, allowing their wisps proper release.[9] "

    [8] A Disturbance in Ashenvale

    "Malfurion Stormrage says: These spirits are mere shells of who they once were. Warm them with your touch, champion. Give them peace.
    Completion
    Malfurion Stormrage says: When the spirits are at peace, so is the forest. You have my thanks."

    "With the the wisps dissonant, the spirits of long forgotten Highborne of Ameth'Aran began to take forces from both sides and turn them into mindless slaves. Malfurion asked Alliance adventurers to put them to rest, free his soldiers and calm the wisps who were lost to a frenzy. Sylvanas, on the other hand, simply wanted the destruction of the the wisps.[73][74]"
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2018-09-24 at 08:54 PM.

  4. #124
    Seems to me like you just showed that Malfurion's ability to control them is rather limited. Hardly "master of death" level, when he can't even force them to calm down, while even regular necromancers can assume complete control over the undead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dundebuns View Post
    Pretty sure Life and Death are polar opposites on the wow picture of magic. You can have mastery of one or the other, they are mutually exclusive, just like the Fel (chaos) and the Arcane (Order), and Light and Shadow.

    Sure they can both produce similar results, but they do it in different ways.
    Demon Hunters need to know Arcane to contain their Fel powers. The forces are opposed, but in a way that generally requires you to know about both at least a little, and if you can influence one, you can inherently influence the other too.

    Illidan was even explicitly a trained mage back in the WotA.
    Last edited by huth; 2018-09-16 at 11:53 AM.

  5. #125
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    This thread is turning fast like that one about Azshara being born a troll... Soon we will be debating over the difference between the word "millenium" and "millenia" again.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  6. #126
    Deleted
    no u

    no u


    no u

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2018-09-16 at 03:40 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    ...They're wisps, made of Ethereal Energy. They're not made of Water, please tell me you aren't this unversed in Lore while attempting to make a Lore point.
    Have you played WC3? I'll discuss further once you made your response. If you have played as the Sentinels in WC3 you would get what I mean and won't resolve into wisps aren't made out of water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    This thread is turning fast like that one about Azshara being born a troll... Soon we will be debating over the difference between the word "millenium" and "millenia" again.
    I was a bit lax about other thread participants being grammar police but this time, I won't be. It kinda sucks there are too many people claiming the know something and are just bunch of wanna-be's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Seems to me like you just showed that Malfurion's ability to control them is rather limited. Hardly "master of death" level, when he can't even force them to calm down, while even regular necromancers can assume complete control over the undead.


    Demon Hunters need to know Arcane to contain their Fel powers. The forces are opposed, but in a way that generally requires you to know about both at least a little, and if you can influence one, you can inherently influence the other too.

    Illidan was even explicitly a trained mage back in the WotA.
    My resolution for this thread is to show that Malfurion have mastered the outside and other aspect of his core element. He is known for being an advocate of natural balance. and I'm glad you brought up Illidan, atleast you're slowly completly getting the grasp of my true intention.

    Malfurion is to Nature and Death as to Illidan is to Arcane and Fel.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2018-09-25 at 11:21 AM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    Have you played WC3? I'll discuss further once you made your response. If you have played as the Sentinels in WC3 you would get what I mean and won't resolve into wisps aren't made out of water.
    Much lore from Warcarft 3 has been retconned, the ONLY lore that matters is in WoW and in the books/Chronicles.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Much lore from Warcarft 3 has been retconned, the ONLY lore that matters is in WoW and in the books/Chronicles.
    So you're taking let's consult the "definitve wow source/rulebook of lore". Fine, I'll indulge in your fancy. Kindly do provide me an entry about wisps. How they are deployed. What are their roles, their function in the NE society, what are their capabilites,etc. Let's discuss further after you "successfully" find your resource. Don't worry if you won't find any, which I highly suspect you won't because there is lack of entry or further details about them in your said "guidebook" I will help you understand.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    So you're taking let's consult the "definitve wow source/rulebook of lore". Fine, I'll indulge in your fancy. Kindly do provide me an entry about wisps. How they are deployed. What are their roles, their function in the NE society, what are their capabilites,etc. Let's discuss further after you "successfully" find your resource. Don't worry if you won't find any, which I highly suspect you won't because there is lack of entry or further details about them in your said "guidebook" I will help you understand.
    I'm done debating with someone who has zero concept of how the Lore works, especially someone with as bad of an attitude as you have. You have dozens of people telling you the same information, but your little mental problems still deludes you. Enjoy your life kiddo.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    This thread is turning fast like that one about Azshara being born a troll... Soon we will be debating over the difference between the word "millenium" and "millenia" again.
    I think that's the only possible outcome for a vertigo12 thread.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    I'm done debating with someone who has zero concept of how the Lore works, especially someone with as bad of an attitude as you have. You have dozens of people telling you the same information, but your little mental problems still deludes you. Enjoy your life kiddo.
    Then kindly lead the way to the true path of lore "Shan'do".

    You know the word bad is a "subjective" word specially if the circumstances would present you in a "bad" position and look like an "idiot". Well that'sa bit harsh and hard to swallow let's just use the word uninformed. I was hoping you would supply me with that decisive line from the book which would ultimately make me appear stupid and an ill informed nobody who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. I'll leave you be.

    But since you brought up Chronicles once more, give me time and I'll finish your job in finding something valuable to our topic wisps. It's on my desktop and in .crz file so it might take a while, I hope you'll be patient enough.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2018-09-24 at 08:58 PM.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    make me appear stupid and an ill informed
    We don't need to make you appear like that. You keep proving that you are.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    We don't need to make you appear like that. You keep proving that you are.
    I've been gathering resources from different publications, articles, entries, quotes from books, datamined entries from quests and NPC lines. Which I am certain you do use as well. What does that make HUTH? What kind of level do you think are the ones who supplied these materials we use?

    Please post something here in MMO-C which the entire world can read that is substantial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    They make hell lot of those mistakes in arathi.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well kel'thuzad was a mage and he had no problems with necromancy so whats your point ?
    Wasn't he a Shaman though?

  15. #135
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    Wasn't he a Shaman though?
    No he was a brewmaster.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    I've been gathering resources from different publications, articles, entries, quotes from books, datamined entries from quests and NPC lines. Which I am certain you do use as well. What does that make HUTH? What kind of level do you think are the ones who supplied these materials we use?

    Please post something here in MMO-C which the entire world can read that is substantial.

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    Wasn't he a Shaman though?
    You may gather information but you still are spewing head canon because you're spinning lore to your liking.

    Wisps, like other ancients, existed and protected the forests long before druids existed. Wisps are not mastered by anyone but they purposely serve the night elf wild gods.

    You've completely ignored Malfurion's and (post sundering) night elves' moral code.

    Malfurion has moral objections to even killing or being a direct cause of death to the creatures of nature he called upon. If you would like to challenge me on this, then lets discuss his use of beetles in lore. If you don't know what I'm referring to then you need revisit your sources.

    Malfurion has banned / shunned / forbid certain uncontrollable and unholy acts/spells/forms.

    Decay magic is even taboo for shamans.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by viridian-716 View Post
    You may gather information but you still are spewing head canon because you're spinning lore to your liking.

    You've completely ignored Malfurion's and (post sundering) night elves' moral code.

    Malfurion has moral objections to even killing or being a direct cause of death to the creatures of nature he called upon. If you would like to challenge me on this, then lets discuss his use of beetles in lore. If you don't know what I'm referring to then you need revisit your sources.

    Malfurion has banned / shunned / forbid certain uncontrollable and unholy acts/spells/forms.

    Decay magic is even taboo for shamans.
    "None shall defile the lands" as a Druid or an Archdruid would claim.

    That means in choosing between nature over spirits of the departed, he would choose the first and would sacrifice the second even without second guessing.

    How would I manipulate the lore to my own liking if it is an issue which exist way way back WC3, sacrifice of ancestral wisp to kill Archimonde.

    Let's have a comparison and contrast using Battle for Lordaeron:
    - when Sylvanas used blight and attacked and even afflicted her low ranks as the Alliance emoted in disgust?

    Wouldn't it be on the same gravity that something which used to have life will be used for a personal purpose the very core aspect of necromantic practices?

    Sure Malfurion banned "others" from dabbling into such activity and yet was it because he is the racial leader of the Night Elves and the Arch Druid makes himself his very own exemption to the rule?

    - How come the Alliance doesn't create the same repugnance Malfurion is subtly employing as to Sylvanas' unorthodox actions or even find it disturbing?

    If he is indeed the Arch Druid of Balance of nature and life, and indeed upholds the law of life and nature, he would be pro-life regardless. He should be the "mediator" similar to how Anduin's temperament are. "There should be another way". "We don't have to resolve in eliminating them". " I'll do my best to convince them to turn away from their corruption". "I'll use the power that Cenarius bestowed upon me and remove the corruption from him/her. I will heal him/her with nature".

    Shouldn't these be the lines he should be using instead as he seems to be out of character when instead of using soothe or hibernate, he ends up ordering you to kill the furlborgs?

    "
    Wisps, like other ancients, existed and protected the forests long before druids existed. Wisps are not mastered by anyone but they purposely serve the night elf wild gods. "

    Source?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    No he was a brewmaster.
    I was thinking of Ner'zhul that second but yes Kel'thuzad was indeed a mage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Seems to me like you just showed that Malfurion's ability to control them is rather limited. Hardly "master of death" level, when he can't even force them to calm down, while even regular necromancers can assume complete control over the undead.


    Demon Hunters need to know Arcane to contain their Fel powers. The forces are opposed, but in a way that generally requires you to know about both at least a little, and if you can influence one, you can inherently influence the other too.

    Illidan was even explicitly a trained mage back in the WotA.
    Control is not absolute. Even Sylvanas was able to escape the bondage of undead servitude from Arthras. Warlock even has a limited time to enslave demon.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2018-09-24 at 09:02 PM.

  18. #138
    Just because something has to do with spirits doesn’t automatically make it necromancy in the Warcraft universe, unless you want to claim Tirion and paladins in general are necromencers since he called on the help of the souls of the dead paladins under light hope to fend off Arthas and his deathknights. As well has called them to stop the ebon blade from taking Titian’s corpse. Also shamans make heavy use of spirits. Pretty sure priest do as well tho their magic is usually more about soothing and releasing their rage.

    From what I understand necromancy in Warcraft is usually about reanimation of a corpse and about torturing and twisting spirits to bind them to animated corpses or the caster. There have been plenty of spirits in Warcraft that wasn’t the product of necromancy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruargh
    I'm baffled that something this simple can be so hard for some people... I guess we can't blame blizzard for dumbing down the game any longer, because apparently it very much needed :

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by alt-ithist View Post
    Just because something has to do with spirits doesn’t automatically make it necromancy in the Warcraft universe, unless you want to claim Tirion and paladins in general are necromencers since he called on the help of the souls of the dead paladins under light hope to fend off Arthas and his deathknights. As well has called them to stop the ebon blade from taking Titian’s corpse. Also shamans make heavy use of spirits. Pretty sure priest do as well tho their magic is usually more about soothing and releasing their rage.

    From what I understand necromancy in Warcraft is usually about reanimation of a corpse and about torturing and twisting spirits to bind them to animated corpses or the caster. There have been plenty of spirits in Warcraft that wasn’t the product of necromancy.
    Sadly people playing WoW are only seeing just one section of the huge scope of necromancy.

    It's not only about reanimated corpse from stiched bodies, raising the dead back to life, ghouls,zombies, wights, the Scourge, Forsaken, Val'kyr, etc.

    Yes everything that has connection with the dead is within the field of necromancy. Including ressurection,interacting with souls and spirit of the dead.

    Necros=the dead or death
    Mancy = mantis - prophet, mantein =to known, knowledge; see logia/logy

    Necrology wasn't used as to herbology/herbalism because it describes another set of reality which otherwise known as orbituary or list of the dead.

    Requirement:
    - It is alive
    - It has to have a soul - esprit,anima, worldsoul.The spirit/soul can be good,lawful,neutral,chaotic,evil.
    - the object/matter can be infused with soul
    - soulless object can be created,manipulated in exchange for a soul.

    Magni as Azeroth's Speaker, who is currently communing with the planet's worldsoul, technically is using the arts of necromancy.

    Similar to the Pantheon or titans, they too can experience death but they revert into their ethereal form or go back to being a world soul and at the proper time materialize and assume their titanic body.
    Last edited by vertigo12; 2018-09-17 at 10:06 PM.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo12 View Post
    Sadly people playing WoW are only seeing just one section of the huge scope of necromancy.

    It's not only about reanimated corpse from stiched bodies, raising the dead back to life, ghouls,zombies, wights, the Scourge, Forsaken, Val'kyr, etc.

    Yes everything that has connection with the dead is within the field of necromancy. Including ressurection,interacting with souls and spirit of the dead.

    Necros=the dead or death
    Mancy = mantis - prophet, mantein =to known, knowledge; see logia/logy

    Necrology wasn't used as to herbology/herbalism because it describes another set of reality which otherwise known as orbituary or list of the dead.
    In the real world, necromancy is indeed a method of divination. Practicioners of that kind of magic pretend that they can communicate with the dead to learn secret knowledge, especially the future. It is only in games that it gained the meaning of the black arts about raising the dead, twisting spirits, animate the dead in a Frankenstein manner. In Warcraft, you never see or hear the term "necromancy" applied to divination or simply talking with spirits, but always to the black arts of undeath. As you said yourself, "people playing WoW are only seeing just one section of the huge scope of necromancy." That's because for WoW, it's the only side that counts. What you think about necromancy doesn't. Heck, the traditionnal meaning of necromancy (divination) does not count in this game.
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