Balance DPS feels awful...why?

[Tyze]

Yes. Balancing 30+ specs with various talent setups, gear setups and values, and let's not even get into boss fights with movement, phase changes, downtimes, and such. It's totally perfectly easy, like quantum physics. My 3yo could do it easily Blizz just doesn't want to. Is that enough hyperbole?

If they cant balance stuff already, then why add new stuff to make the balance even more harder to do??

[cparle87]

If they cant balance stuff already, then why add new stuff to make the balance even more harder to do??

Because people would complain "waaaahhh blizz we haven't gotten a new class since <insert expansion here> I'm gonna quit blizz is so lazy we haven't gotten shiny new stuff in so long everyone is old stale boring clunky insert buzzword here"?

On a more serious note by your logic of don't add anything new until everything that's already around is as perfect as possible we wouldn't have much in the way of civilization if you think about it.

[Deleted]

There will NEVER be absolute class balance....YES, they can make numbers for all specs to exactly the same....BUT due to varying player skills it will never look equal on comparisons with others

[Mardux]

The problem is that Balance is decent with 3x Streaking Stars traits on good item level pieces (the trait is worth about 20 itemlevels per piece for me). If you don't have any, your DPS (single target which is important for raiding and high M+ with Tyrannical) is shit.

Thats not what people are claiming is the problem though. They're claiming that balance dps is bad and it needs to be buffed. It isn't and it doesn't. What it needs is traits to be tuned for balance, which the case for nearly all dps specs.

[Kaver]

Thats not what people are claiming is the problem though. They're claiming that balance dps is bad and it needs to be buffed. It isn't and it doesn't. What it needs is traits to be tuned for balance, which the case for nearly all dps specs.

This exactly. And I think Blizzard made a big mistake adding the Azerite gear. Now they need to balance the classes and also make sure that all Azerite traits for each class are balanced..

[Super Kami Dende]

Currently watching Method doing the final Boss of their Mythic Raid with 2 of their top 3 DPS as Balance druids.

Take that as you will.

[exochaft]

Currently watching Method doing the final Boss of their Mythic Raid with 2 of their top 3 DPS as Balance druids.

Take that as you will.

It's a fight that caters to our only strengths: spread target cleaving and burst damage windows which line up with Incarnation pretty well. Plus, I guarantee they're running Streaking Stars, as that does 10-15% of my damage easily on G'huun with just two traits, as it makes boomy's probably have one of the strongest 30 seconds ST burst damage windows in the game right now.

Thats not what people are claiming is the problem though. They're claiming that balance dps is bad and it needs to be buffed. It isn't and it doesn't. What it needs is traits to be tuned for balance, which the case for nearly all dps specs.

It could certainly use a little love in some damage aspects, but it's certainly not horrid at all. The problem comes that there are some classes where your DPS feels solid in most/all scenarios irregardless of traits, such as my rogue... for such little effort, I can destroy my moonkin's damage outside of Incarnation burst, and it's much more consistent in almost every scenario aside from far spread cleave (I'm even pretty close to my boomy with Incarnation up, especially if there's more than one target). The downside of moonkin is that our ST damage outside of CD's (especially Incarnation/CA + 3xStrStars traits) is abysmal... and while that may be what the devs deem as 'flavor' or 'niche' for the spec, there's not much of a solid talent option(s) to change that or push it in a different direction if the player wanted.

Since I've been doing >10 mythic+ keys nonstop this week, I've certainly felt more of the hybrid utilitarian than super consistent DPSer. Not necessarily saying that's bad in itself, it's actually quite nice to have Treants/AoE roots/etc. to make encounters and pulls easier to trivial. However, when it comes to pure damage, you still have quite a few pulls where you can struggle to keep up with the tank, and that's something you really don't see in most other DPS classes and frankly doesn't feel good. Simply put, the base package is lacking when it comes to consistent DPS, being too reliant on talent choices and Azerite traits to fit certain scenarios and requiring adjustments to gear/talents when each scenario changes.

Hate to do the comparison, but again, my rogue can get away with one talent build and the same Azerite gear and be consistently good in any raid and mythic+ scenario without sacrificing much in the way of utility, either. Maybe it's a problem with rogues, but I honestly think it's a problem with the druid talent tree restriction (since Blizz even said druids have one less talent row to work with compared to everyone else) as well as talent arrangement combined with the current tuning of the base boomy package sans talents/Azerite traits (which could also use some tuning). If I had any request, I'd want to be more consistent in damage output outside of CD's baseline, especially in the low target count scenarios. Perhaps they could introduce or adjust current Azerite traits that would shift our damage away from Incarnation burst to higher non-CD damage windows.

Again, I'm not saying the sky is falling for moonkins, far from it as we're performing well in the current raid tier. However, I think there's still some QoL and tuning adjustments that could be done to make us better outside of niche scenarios, either by default or gearing/talent choices.

[eXtOphius]

@exochaft

I agree with just about everything you've said here. Well written.

I'd just like to say that the class does not feel fun to play. Perhaps it is because I've not been a Balance main for years, but it's damage is so heavily gimped outside of SS/Incarnation windows that it's an absolute joke. I'd happily give up the utility doe more damage, but I'm a brainless worm that just wants to blow things up.

That said, as I predicted this to guildies several weeks ago, Balance would be excellent in M+ due to situational utility and absolutely massive boss damage, as well as being able to do semi-respectable trash damage @ higher key levels... but would be particularly worse off on raids.

If you look @ the 75th percentile statistics for all damage roles in Mythic Uldir, Balance is the 2nd lowest spec in the game, only besting out Marksmanship. Hunters, however, have the highest two specs in the game right now to make up for that.

If you look @ the 95th percentile, since we are all 95ers+ on MMO-C, Balance is still the 2nd to worst spec in the game for Mythic Uldir, beating only Demonology. And we all know what Warlocks have!

The idea of Balance being a great spec because <Limit> used 3 on their Mythrax kill is a joke. They used 5 Affliction Warlocks. <Method> used one, that has been in on nearly every major boss kill for years (Lørgok), he's not being sat. Exorsus used zero, but 4 Affliction Warlocks...

The data is there. The class is boosted by arguably the biggest outlier Azerite Trait in the game, and does laughably bad damage outside of it. And it just feels bad to play.

[Great Destiny Man]

If you look @ the 75th percentile statistics for all damage roles in Mythic Uldir, Balance is the 2nd lowest spec in the game, only besting out Marksmanship. Hunters, however, have the highest two specs in the game right now to make up for that.

If you look @ the 95th percentile, since we are all 95ers+ on MMO-C, Balance is still the 2nd to worst spec in the game for Mythic Uldir, beating only Demonology. And we all know what Warlocks have!

I honestly have no idea why you're trying to look at the graphs for Mythic Uldir as a whole when the place hasn't been cleared out and there are barely enough parses on the latter bosses to provide accurate data. Of course we sim weaker on some of the initial bosses and that skews the results quite badly when it's only those that have a decent amount of logs.

The class is boosted by arguably the biggest outlier Azerite Trait in the game, and does laughably bad damage outside of it.

At this point seems pretty obvious Streaking Stars going to get nerfed some point soon. While I'd prefer that Blizzard baked some of that power back into the core rotation who knows whether they will. At the very least the other ST traits should be buffed to not be as subpar option as they are now (which at least is the devs goal for weak traits across the board).

And it just feels bad to play.

Well that's a different problem altogether. This spec is very unlikely to get any major overhauls this expansion so if the current playstyle isn't to your liking then I can only suggest finding another class that does.

[Malmmoc]

Well that's a different problem altogether. This spec is very unlikely to get any major overhauls this expansion so if the current playstyle isn't to your liking then I can only suggest finding another class that does.

For me personally, it is purely a case of numbers impacting the fun. The actual rotation is ok, I just can't get past feeling completely impotent outside incarnation, and it would be cool if starfall was a damaging effect instead of a warm snuggly blanket that cuddled the mobs.

I am looking forward to the azerite re-balance and with some minor redistribution of our damage I can see my self being a happy camper.

[BoomkinHell]

Seriously, it feels pointless going through our rotation outside of incarnation. They had all these golden artifact traits and legendary bonuses they could use for traits but it's all generic crap. Nothing that really changes a rotation or impacts it all. It's just extra numbers somewhere. We had a spectral wolf shoot out sometimes when we starsurged. That could have been a fucking trait, it's the exact goddamn same thing as like ruinous bolt or some other generic dmg trait.

[ydraw]

At this point seems pretty obvious Streaking Stars going to get nerfed some point soon. While I'd prefer that Blizzard baked some of that power back into the core rotation who knows whether they will. At the very least the other ST traits should be buffed to not be as subpar option as they are now (which at least is the devs goal for weak traits across the board)..

What needs to happen is that they need to nerf streaking stars and buff out mastery (which is by far our weakest stat). Buffing our mastery would be equivalent to a flat damage increase but would also make our gearing choices better since it's currently dog shit.

[Magical Mudcrab]

What the deal?

Because it's not Balanced.

[Great Destiny Man]

What needs to happen is that they need to nerf streaking stars and buff out mastery (which is by far our weakest stat). Buffing our mastery would be equivalent to a flat damage increase but would also make our gearing choices better since it's currently dog shit.

Certainly wouldn't be against that idea, would at least help Starsurge and Starfall feel more impactful.

[Alcsaar]

For me personally, it is purely a case of numbers impacting the fun. The actual rotation is ok, I just can't get past feeling completely impotent outside incarnation, and it would be cool if starfall was a damaging effect instead of a warm snuggly blanket that cuddled the mobs.

I am looking forward to the azerite re-balance and with some minor redistribution of our damage I can see my self being a happy camper.

How are you feeling about those azerite trait adjustments right now? Zero balance traits being changed today. Lol.

Anyway yea the key issue with Balance is pitiful AoE Damage for a spec that actually requires some effort to aoe, compared to rogues/dhs/mages/etc pressing one button and doubling our aoe.

Pitiful single target damage

Good cleave damage compared to others if the targets aren't melee cleave range. If the targets are in melee cleave range, we get dumpstered still.

There is only one niche in which we can consistently do well competitively and a very small minority of fights in raids and mythics that actually support said niche.

On top of that balance FEELS awful, the spells are entirely unimpactful. One of the coolest abilities in the game imo, full moon, is reduced to a pathetic unusable talent that doesn't even hit as hard as starsurge. Long fall from grace for an ability that was one of the harder hitting burst abilities in Legion and felt good to use.

I leveled a mage, and its a blast to actually *feel* like I'm doing damage while also doing damage. And azerite traits? Hah! I can run the same set up for everything and be just as well.

Log data continues to show balance being a bottom tier spec in 99% of cases. Mythic parses put us 2-3rd from the bottom. Heroic parses put us middle of the pack but within 1% of the bottom.

Conjecture on "what might happen in the future" isn't a reason for Balance to be dumpster tier in almost all scenarios currently.

Right now there is no reason to take a balance druid over basically any other dps in mythics, no matter what level you're running. We don't compete on AoE, single target or melee cleave fights. The only fight we MGHT shine on is split cleave and fights like that are so incredibly rare that it might as well not exist, and certainly isn't worth sacrificing dps for the rest of the mythic.

I think a large mastery buff is a reasonable start, would certainly off set the awful sinking feeling in my gut when i get a 15 item level vers/mastery upgrade that I can't use.

[Wiyld]

yeah balance feels bad atm

Really sucks dragging ass behind people who I know are stoned and only half paying attention.

Running heroic Uldir atm and we have a number of very high dps in the guild...just good players in general. Monks, rogues, hunters doing 12-13k ST with add switches and everything. I'm sitting in the back doing 9K if I'm doing everything right. Hell SimC even tells me my 349 gear set is only theoretically capable of 10k so it isn't as if I don't know what I'm doing.

A mastery buff would probably be a good approach, although I don;t know what that would mean down the road in terms of scaling. It isn't necessarily a bad thing for a spec to have a stat that sucks for them. We can't all be legion resto druids.

Why can't it just be something as simple as bumping the flat dmg of all our spells a couple %? Give us 2% more dmg on everything and see what that works out to after all the modifiers. It seems like such a basic thing, maybe I'm missing something.

Honestly I think part of the problem blizz has with class balance is the constant need to 'niche' every spec. Yes, that would be a major philosophy in spec development and design. After its gone live, forget all that...focus on minor buffs or nerfs overall to bring things in line.

As it is, I feel like I'm there for the Brez, innervate and just cuz my friends like me.

I used to get picked for the quick Brez because I contributed enough dmg that I was needed. Now I'm the guy they leave dead to save the rez.

feelsbadman

[eXtOphius]

I honestly have no idea why you're trying to look at the graphs for Mythic Uldir as a whole when the place hasn't been cleared out and there are barely enough parses on the latter bosses to provide accurate data. Of course we sim weaker on some of the initial bosses and that skews the results quite badly when it's only those that have a decent amount of logs.

At this point seems pretty obvious Streaking Stars going to get nerfed some point soon. While I'd prefer that Blizzard baked some of that power back into the core rotation who knows whether they will. At the very least the other ST traits should be buffed to not be as subpar option as they are now (which at least is the devs goal for weak traits across the board

I waited to respond to this for a reason. We are now last overall out of every spec in the game. That is with whatever fight(s) people actually think we are useful for. That is why I posted those, the writing was on the wall, the eye test checks out, so does the math, this spec is terrible.

Good call on the SS need, we all knew that was coming. And it shouldn't be a surprise, the other buffs were mediocre are best.

[Great Destiny Man]

I waited to respond to this for a reason. We are now last overall out of every spec in the game. That is with whatever fight(s) people actually think we are useful for. That is why I posted those, the writing was on the wall, the eye test checks out, so does the math, this spec is terrible.

I don't get the point of saying "I told you so" when at the time of me writing that no guilds had cleared mythic uldir and yet people were using overall mythic uldir rankings as absolute evidence of balance druid being shit. My point still stands that approach is utterly flawed by the sheer lack of data.

That being said with the streaking stars nerf that certainly makes things awkward for the bosses that have points of increased damage on the boss (e.g. mother, ghuun) and the starsurge/starfall buff won't compensate that enough. Unfortunately we need the logs post hotfix first to both analyse the full impact and present that to blizzard if it's far too crippling.

Good call on the SS need, we all knew that was coming. And it shouldn't be a surprise, the other buffs were mediocre are best.

Yea I couldn't see them taking it away with nothing at all to buff the core spec but the buffs they provided are definitely lacklustre. I suppose they wanted to also address the fact that starfall and starsurge felt too weak but would have preferred a buff to the actual mastery numbers myself. Some additional tuning would be nice but in 8.1 we definitely need some actual new traits as even with buffs the other trait options just aren't that interesting or engaging.

[BananaHandsB]

Good joke, but I'm following proper rotation and struggling to perform (310 item level atm)

I bolded your problem.

Also, like any class, you are not balanced solely around single target. Watch a mythic g'huun fight and you'll see balance killing it.

[Alcsaar]

I bolded your problem.

Also, like any class, you are not balanced solely around single target. Watch a mythic g'huun fight and you'll see balance killing it.

And like any logical person would note, having one fight that you are good at in the entirety of the end game isn't sufficient, especially when you're still being beat by specs that perform far better on every other encounter as well (affliction warlocks)