Why is the Horde prefered by those in it?

[Super Dickmann]

He's a rich kid trained by the best, is basically Bolvar's adopted son (in case he ever turns on the Alliance),was also trained by a Quasi immortal that can see the future, and has friendships with a dragon and a high ranking member of the Horde.

The final point is if anything a reason for him not to be in charge, but that's not even the point. The issue is that he's a child. Genn is older and far more experienced than he is among the humans and a veteran of the Second War. Tyrande, Malf and Velen are literally millenia older yet defer to his wisdom. Turalyon likewise. His presence alone makes the Lightforged and Void Elves - cosmically arrayed enemies, forgive each other and be friends. He's simultaneously an insufferable Mary Sue to whom the entire alliance plot rotates around and incredibly incompetent, as we can see from the Battle for Undercity or the Gathering, yet no one ever calls him out on it.

[Artelia]

As blood elf i can say we have no choice. We don't want end as another human sidekicks. Look at nigh elves. Their lore is all about how they support humans. Windrunners too rather intercourse with humans than go back to their people.

Sylvanas can be for alliance mains and weak part of Horde wrong or even bad warchief.

But sorry. I rather follow her than human. Her story isn't about human lore and even in Nathanos in her history she is all about hate to humans. And that is enough for me to follow her.

Maybe after Alliance will not be all about humans everywhere. We can join them. Until then.... No way. Never.

(And yes i use word human a lot. Because..that is Alliance. Humans and others)

[frogger237]

Whoa, he has interaction with his parent. I change my mind, he is great choice of leader then.

Tyrande and Genn are more prone to violence, Malfurion would put Azeroth ahead of the Alliance, Moira started a civil war and tried to trick the others into doing something stupid and went and banged the first dude that told her she was smart, Velen would just ignored Azeroth and focused on killing demons ,and Gelbin is a good engineer but a pretty shitty leader who lost his home because he didn't look at actual reports and just trusted his adviser.

[Super Dickmann]

Tyrande and Genn are more prone to violence, Malfurion would put Azeroth ahead of the Alliance, Moira started a civil war and tried to trick the others into doing something stupid and went and banged the first dude that told her she was smart, Velen would just ignored Azeroth and focused on killing demons ,and Gelbin is a good engineer but a pretty shitty leader who lost his home because he didn't look at actual reports and just trusted his adviser.

Violence isn't a downside by default. Had Anduin acted earlier for example he could've prevented the Burning of Teldrassil. But because he's an infallible perfect character no one ever calls him out on this nor does the thought even cross his mind. In fact, by sheer proximity to him Genn abruptly decides that the people who destroyed his home, murdered his son and stitched his people into abominations are a-okay, it's just Sylvanas who's bad.

[Dimad]

But Sylvanas makes the choices for the Horde. There's no freedom in it. They obey or they die. It's the rule of strength, that might makes right. How in the world can that be freedom? Sylvanas doesn't care about what the others think, she walks all over them and they've no choice.
What dictatorship? The Alliance is a choice. Nobody is forced to do anything. THere are no threats and no fear. If an Alliance race doesn't want to participate in war, if they can't or have objections to doing something, they have the CHOICE not to be part of it.

Yeah and now we see Blood Elves calling us "lowborn scum" and participating in the wanting murder of civilian populations. They Horde is no absolutely no position to act like they've a moral high ground.

Wherr did sylvanis say obey or die? All the things she says in game point the other way. Even to saurfang, she left him with a choice. He could follow her or find his own fate by staying behind. She never said my way or die. I do admit though all of her choices are like that but in all the cinamatics, she has never stopped someone from doing so let alone killed a horde for not picking her way. Maybe it was in the books, i dont read the books so i cant comment there. But its far from a dictatorship. It is not a democrasy sure but not a dictatorship.

[frogger237]

Violence isn't a downside by default. Had Anduin acted earlier for example he could've prevented the Burning of Teldrassil. But because he's an infallible perfect character no one ever calls him out on this nor does the thought even cross his mind. In fact, by sheer proximity to him Genn abruptly decides that the people who destroyed his home, murdered his son and stitched his people into abominations are a-okay, it's just Sylvanas who's bad.

All that is just because Blizzard is shit at storytelling so they can force the HvA conflict because they can't think of any other ways for pvp to exist. I mean there is no way in hell the demon hunters would still put up with Sylvanas, nore anyone that saw her raise her allies and the other shit she has pulled but they/we do because its forced on us. Same thing for the npcs.

[Super Dickmann]

All that is just because Blizzard is shit at storytelling so they can force the HvA conflict because they can't think of any other ways for pvp to exist. I mean there is no way in hell the demon hunters would still put up with Sylvanas, nore anyone that saw her raise her allies and the other shit she has pulled but they/we do because its forced on us. Same thing for the npcs.

Why would the DHs give a shit? They eat souls and have the urge to consume flesh. Their previous leader was a slaver and a mass murderer who killed his own troops for much pettier reasoning and to far less success than Sylvanas. Forsaken have supported much worse throughout, Goblins are amoral, orcs are warmongers by default and doing what she did to Northern Kalimdor has been their objective since Vanilla. Blood elves have an existential threat to deal with in the face of Alleria and the void elves who can blow up the Sunwell and have them go through being junkies again, etc. Trolls have Kul Tiras which not only hunted them down but even now uses them as target practice. They all have plenty of motive to participate in this war.

The Alliance have even more motive because they've been wronged constantly by the horde in its various forms and been the victim of dozens of atrocities, but due to Blizzard's approach to Anduin, they can't be proactive about it and even Genn and Jaina need softening up.

[mysticx]

The others who replied to this put it in roughly the terms I would have. A lack of conflict, Human centrism. Racial identity doesn’t mean anything when those two things are in the way.

Ultimately the Alliance is just... boring. Anything interesting becomes absorbed and overshadowed by the wider Alliance (Human) culture.

But how is the Horde any better? All Orcish buildings and blindly following an undead elf and her toyboy, Blizz just can’t write faction stories involving more than one race to save their lives, and while humans are the blandest race of all, watching the Horde abandon their own much-touted honour because “muh warchief!” must also be cringe-worthy to sit through...

[Super Dickmann]

But how is the Horde any better? All Orcish buildings and blindly following an undead elf and her toyboy, Blizz just can’t write faction stories involving more than one race to save their lives, and while humans are the blandest race of all, watching the Horde abandon their own much-touted honour because “muh warchief!” must also be cringe-worthy to sit through...

Implying I give a shit about muh honor when playing a zombie who's first quests are feeding captives cyanide or an orc waging wars of aggression because i can't into agriculture.

The WC2 Horde, Garrosh's Horde and now Sylv's have always been the faction at its best. The noblesavage Horde only worked in WC3, but ever since the Forsaken and then the blood elves and goblins are in it's been an exercise in cognitive dissonance. It structurally failed from then on because you'd always have at least half of the Horde that could never fit that niche. The survival, by all means approach meanwhile can easily be transplanted to orcs and trolls as that and warmongering was their original characterization anyway.

[Clone]

The problem is that Alliance perspective.

'Why can't we all be friends' isn't really the Alliance perspective. It's Anduin's perspective and as events have shown, Anduin is a naive child who has ended up as leader of the Alliance through being born to it than having earned it and due to his Dad dying before he could mature and adopt a more realistic perspective.

In reality, Sylvanas's dialogue with Saurfang in 'A Good War' lays out the Horde perspective of the Alliance.

'I believe the exiles of Gilneas will never forgive the Horde for driving them away. I believe the living humans of Lordaeron think it is blasphemy that my people still hold their city. I believe the ancient divide between our allies in Silvermoon and their kin in Darnassus is not easily mended.” There was a smile on Sylvanas’s face. It was not a pleasant one.

“I believe the Darkspear tribe hasn’t forgotten who drove them from their islands,” she continued. “I believe every orc your age remembers being imprisoned for years in filthy camps, wallowing in despair and surviving on human scraps. I believe every human remembers the tales of the terrible Horde that caused so much destruction in its first invasion, and I believe they blame every orc for that, no matter what your people have done to redeem yourselves. And I remember very well that I and my first Forsaken were once loyal Alliance citizens. We died for that banner, and our reward was to be hunted as vermin. I believe that there will be no permanent peace with the Alliance'

No matter what fine words Anduin says, the truth is he leads an Alliance of races who quite liked the world the way it was before the Horde came along. A world where the Trolls were savages pushed farther to the edges by the march of Human civilization.Where Tauren fought merely to survive against constant Centaur attack. Where Orcs weren't even known. A world content to let the Blood Elves die rather than deal with their magic addiction. A world they want to recreate. A world without, and I quote the words of the previous Alliance leader that was delivered straight to the face of the then warchief 'your twisted Horde'. Anduin doesn't want to acknowledge the hate that pulses through the Alliance for the Horde, he wants to pretend it isn't there or isn't a big deal.

The Alliance is all for peace, on it's terms and once it's supremacy is guaranteed. The Alliance believes itself to be on the side of the angels. The Horde knows the Alliance to be hypocritical, privileged and innately racist yet completely incapable of perceiving it's flaws (compared to the self reflection the Horde regularly goes through such as during Garrosh's reign or the reaction of Saurfang).

The Horde isn't the better faction. But we are the more honest one.

Very well said, also summed up in the battle of Loraderon. "You call for peace when it suits you, little lion."

[frogger237]

Why would the DHs give a shit? They eat souls and have the urge to consume flesh. Their previous leader was a slaver and a mass murderer who killed his own troops for much pettier reasoning and to far less success than Sylvanas. Forsaken have supported much worse throughout, Goblins are amoral, orcs are warmongers by default and doing what she did to Northern Kalimdor has been their objective since Vanilla. Blood elves have an existential threat to deal with in the face of Alleria and the void elves who can blow up the Sunwell and have them go through being junkies again, etc. Trolls have Kul Tiras which not only hunted them down but even now uses them as target practice. They all have plenty of motive to participate in this war.

The Alliance have even more motive because they've been wronged constantly by the horde in its various forms and been the victim of dozens of atrocities, but due to Blizzard's approach to Anduin, they can't be proactive about it and even Genn and Jaina need softening up.

Well first they wouldn't go against Illidan they practically dickride him. Once the player character becomes leader you have 2 choices for second in command, one that loves Illidan so much that siding against his people would be blasphemy and the other is someone who saw Illidan becoming too demonic and fought against him. Altruis even says he will kill the player character should they go down the same dark path. There is no way either would side with the Horde. Second haven't you heard "I have sacrificed everything what have you given?" anytime you walk near a npc? Sylvanas goes against everything they fight for. They "doom" themselves for the greater good. Starting wars and turning people undead isn't for the greater good.

[Aeula]

But how is the Horde any better? All Orcish buildings and blindly following an undead elf and her toyboy, Blizz just can’t write faction stories involving more than one race to save their lives, and while humans are the blandest race of all, watching the Horde abandon their own much-touted honour because “muh warchief!” must also be cringe-worthy to sit through...

This expansion has had plenty of Troll, Orc and Forsaken focus. That’s three races vs the Alliances one with a second race being slapped around for kicks. And not all the Horde agrees with Sylvanas, as has been shown. The Horde are actually capable of disagreeing.

And on a personal note, ‘honor’ has always been the thing I liked least about the Horde.

[Super Dickmann]

Well first they wouldn't go against Illidan they practically dickride him. Once the player character becomes leader you have 2 choices for second in command, one that loves Illidan so much that siding against his people would be blasphemy and the other is someone who saw Illidan becoming too demonic and fought against him. Altruis even says he will kill the player character should they go down the same dark path. There is no way either would side with the Horde. Second haven't you heard "I have sacrificed everything what have you given?" anytime you walk near a npc? Sylvanas goes against everything they fight for. They "doom" themselves for the greater good. Starting wars and turning people undead isn't for the greater good.

You can choose Altruis, but neither the playerbase, who by 90+% chose Kayn nor Blizzard, who made Kayn the default character the other classes see did. And Kayn is a dickrider par excellence who handwaves everything Illidan did. Illidan, in his time, enslaved the broken, let the naga destroy the ecosystem of Zangarmarsh to monopolize water, fed felblood to mind control and corrupt the orcs he grew in test tubes and nearly destroyed the world twice, the first time on the order of the Legion with the Eye of Sargeras, the second time by opening the portal. As someone following Kayn you bind Akama's spirit into slavery as well so you can occupy the Dark Temple. Physiologically, demon hunters hunger for souls and flesh and are all highly violent.

Sylvanas is actually fairly benign in light of this, given she hasn't actually endangered the whole world and the majority of her crimes have been against adversaries. And she's about as much for the greater good as Illidan is in the sense that she's doing it to expand the Horde's strength and by proxy her own. People willing to put up with all of the above would not balk at the kind of shit the Horde pulls in BFA, not by a long shot.

[mysticx]

Implying I give a shit about muh honor when playing a zombie who's first quests are feeding captives cyanide or an orc waging wars of aggression because i can't into agriculture.

The WC2 Horde, Garrosh's Horde and now Sylv's have always been the faction at its best. The noblesavage Horde only worked in WC3, but ever since the Forsaken and then the blood elves and goblins are in it's been an exercise in cognitive dissonance. It structurally failed from then on because you'd always have at least half of the Horde that could never fit that niche. The survival, by all means approach meanwhile can easily be transplanted to orcs and trolls as that and warmongering was their original characterization anyway.

Ah yes, in that case it works just fine... :3

I for one am only Alliance because i wanted to play a Night elf when i started playing (With visions of “Warcraft III” in the back of my mind), and don’t want to race-change my main, it’s probably silly, but after that long i can’t imagine her being anything other than a Night elf, i don’t like the direction of the Alliance at all, following around Anduin is pretty cringe-worthy, his rather mealy-mouthed “For the Alliance” at the end of the Dark iron questline was embarassing...

[Jervaise]

What extremists??

Mostly talking about the results of the first war, and individuals like Daelin Proudmoore.

Or in game terms, the initial RTS games and earlier WoW.

I'm talking about how Horde is bonded here. Not about why Sylvanas starts the war. That's covered in the second part of my post.

[Super Dickmann]

Ah yes, in that case it works just fine... :3

I for one am only Alliance because i wanted to play a Night elf when i started playing (With visions of “Warcraft III” in the back of my mind), and don’t want to race-change my main, it’s probably silly, but after that long i can’t imagine her being anything other than a Night elf, i don’t like the direction of the Alliance at all, following around Anduin is pretty cringe-worthy, his rather mealy-mouthed “For the Alliance” at the end of the Dark iron questline was embarassing...

I'm enjoying the ride while it lasts. The factions are ultimately at the whims of the plot, and where now they're all on board with Sylv in a patch or two they'll suddenly decide it's time to be honorable again and we'll do this song and dance again in three or four years when Blizz realize having the two factions be the same is boring. Rinse and repeat.

That said, I understand your point about Nelves completely. To have the race be hit by genocide and then have zero role in the proceedings so a teenager can ramble on about muh peace must be pretty insufferable. I'd sooner play the evil side than be incompetent and out of focus.

[seleri]

Orcs started the Horde. Tauren, Trolls, and Goblins owe the Horde. Forsaken need the Horde. Blood Elves "need" the Horde but have already tried to defect once, wouldn't surprise me if they try it again considering they're stuck in the EK with the Alliance now. Nightborne are just there for the Blood Elves. Highmountain are just there for Baine. Mag'har like to fight and think Azeroth draenei are the same as AU Draenor draenei. Pandaren are ??????.

[frogger237]

You can choose Altruis, but neither the playerbase, who by 90+% chose Kayn nor Blizzard, who made Kayn the default character the other classes see did. And Kayn is a dickrider par excellence who handwaves everything Illidan did. Illidan, in his time, enslaved the broken, let the naga destroy the ecosystem of Zangarmarsh to monopolize water, fed felblood to mind control and corrupt the orcs he grew in test tubes and nearly destroyed the world twice, the first time on the order of the Legion with the Eye of Sargeras, the second time by opening the portal. As someone following Kayn you bind Akama's spirit into slavery as well so you can occupy the Dark Temple. Physiologically, demon hunters hunger for souls and flesh and are all highly violent.

Sylvanas is actually fairly benign in light of this, given she hasn't actually endangered the whole world and the majority of her crimes have been against adversaries. And she's about as much for the greater good as Illidan is in the sense that she's doing it to expand the Horde's strength and by proxy her own. People willing to put up with all of the above would not balk at the kind of shit the Horde pulls in BFA, not by a long shot.

Most of Illidans evil has been retconned. And no matter what Both of them would choose the Alliance over the Horde. Especially Kayn.

[Mehrunes]

I still don't quite understand what makes the Horde still...well, exist. Sylvanas aludes to how the Tauren might as well join the Alliance. And honestly, I don't see any reason why the Alliance would be hostile towards the Zandalari if the Horde weren't actively seeking to incorporate them.

So why is it that the Horde still exists? What keeps the races banded together? From an Alliance perspective, we really could've all just have been friends.
Even within the Alliance it's entirely the choice of the leaders of each faction if they want to support the Grand Alliance or not. War is a choice. In the Horde, you obey or you're gonna get killed.

Sylvanas said that about Baine. Baine isn't the entirety of Tauren. If anything he's a disgrace to his race. And the Alliance would be hostile to the Zandalari for the same reason they were hostile to the Goblins in Cata. "Ugly green creatures that aren't us." or something along those lines.

Also, from the Alliance's perspective, they could have just been friends with the Horde? Is this why the Alliance attacked the Horde in Stormheim? Or started the previous faction war?

The Alliance gave the Horde yet another shot after SoO and then proceeds to do exactly the same thing less than an expansion later (Ashran) and people still seem to think Horde are the misunderstood victim. If you stab people to death multiple times, get let out of prison and then go and do exactly that the second you're freed, you don't get to cry 'B-BUT PREJUDICE' when they go to arrest you.

Ah, how gracious of the glorious and just Alliance overlords to give the Horde another shot after the Darkspear Rebellion gave them an out of the faction war they themselves started (but couldn't bring to an end on the battleground because they were being beaten left and right). Azeroth knows no greater mercy than that

[Deleted]

The Humans forsook their Undead brethren, hence "Forsaken".
The nightelves are basically vegan nazis. They practice eugenetics as they see fit, and they often killing "lesser" sapient creatures for convenience.
The Draenei are spacejews and the Orcs are spacegermans past ww2.
The Worgen view the Undead like Palestinians view Israelites.
Gnomes are disgusting.
Dwarves are useless alchoholics/dirtpeople.

I wonder why the Horde refuse to join the Alliance...