Canadian officials are mulling an attack on U.S. pharma, void US patents

[Khelek]

I don't think people have any idea what goes into developing drugs nowadays. The easy choices are all exhausted. And figuring out how to put a bundle of chemicals in a syringe that will go through the circulatory system, go into the right location, bind to the right cells, penetrate, get into the nucleus, and rewrite a very specific section of DNA all without fucking up everything is so absolutely complex that it boggles the mind.

That is exactly my point. The cost to develop drugs is crazy due to the complexity of human biochemistry. A pharmaceutical company has to bear the burden of that cost which they will not do if their products can be stolen or placed within price controls. The monetary incentive will vanish. That is why Britain and Canada are not developing new drugs as there is no incentive.

They are buying those drugs from the US companies that develop and patent them, but with the rights to those drugs these companies set the prices. Canada buys them at this price and following the their socialized medical laws sell them to consumers at a loss. This is diving them to steal to avoid losing money.

[jackofwind]

That is exactly my point. The cost to develop drugs is crazy due to the complexity of human biochemistry. A pharmaceutical company has to bear the burden of that cost which they will not do if their products can be stolen or placed within price controls. The monetary incentive will vanish. That is why Britain and Canada are not developing new drugs as there is no incentive.

They are buying those drugs from the US companies that develop and patent them, but with the rights to those drugs these companies set the prices. Canada buys them at this price and following the their socialized medical laws sell them to consumers at a loss. This is diving them to steal to avoid losing money.

Except that Canada isn't actually stealing anything according to internationally recognized trade laws. You might be a biochemist but you clearly don't understand foreign trade.

[Kasierith]

Except that Canada isn't actually stealing anything according to internationally recognized trade laws. You might be a biochemist but you clearly don't understand foreign trade.

And the counter he's making, which is absolutely valid since this exact same thing has already happened when Brazil passed laws identifying HIV drugs as inherently life saving and thus would no longer recognize US patents, is that the ultimate response is US pharmaceuticals no longer participating in the market until international pressure resolves the situation. Whether or not you want to cry out that it's not stealing doesn't matter. If you are all for setting up a situation where there is no financial incentive to develop drugs, drugs will not be developed.

[korijenkins]

Canada is doing more for American citizens than America.

[JohnBrown1917]

Canada is doing more for American citizens than America.

Plenty of Americans are okay with drug companies charging insane prices on life saving medicine. Can't afford? Well, tough shit, you're gonna die of cancer for sure, or whatever the hell you have.

They have gofundme's for Insulin.. for fucks sake.

[Khelek]

Except that Canada isn't actually stealing anything according to internationally recognized trade laws. You might be a biochemist but you clearly don't understand foreign trade.

What patent laws apply where is irrelevant. Canada is taking these drugs in a way that is the same as stealing based upon the US patent system so it is the same as theft to these companies. It is disincentivizing R&D since the exorbitant cost of drug development will not be offset by sales.

If you are a baker and you have a special recipe and the government allows others to use your recipe, what is your incentive to keep baking? Canada is not breaking the law, but the effect on the system is the same. Will this break the system? I do not believe so, but it is not a positive sign for the industry and tells us a great deal about the problems with the system in Canada.

There is another country that does similar corporate espionage and that is China. I don't think Canada wants to follow their example.

[Machismo]

The OP is once again fighting against the free markets in the name of authoritarianism. One would have to wonder why he is so opposed to capitalism.

[Aristeus]

I’m 100% behind Canada. Fuck pharmacy over charging and killing people. Fuck them for charging 3m a year for medication that gets billed 2.95m to insurance jacking up prices for every person insured for a drug that cost literally 400

[Independent voter]

This is Barry Sherman. He was murdered not to long ago, people think his family did it.

He was a Canadian billionaire. How did Barry make his billions? He'd lobby the Canadian government and get the Canadian government to allow Barry to steal US drug patents. For zero labor Barry would copy US drugs and sell them as generics.

Barry made $billions of dollars.

It's all about the Benjamins.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/after-a...ase-1530293424

[JohnBrown1917]

What patent laws apply where is irrelevant. Canada is taking these drugs in a way that is the same as stealing based upon the US patent system so it is the same as theft to these companies. It is disincentivizing R&D since the exorbitant cost of drug development will not be offset by sales.

That'd be a nice argument if this was not about life-saving medicine.

How many die in the US because they are too poor to afford it?

There is another country that does similar corporate espionage and that is China. I don't think Canada wants to follow their example.

The whole world should follow Canada on this, if they are not already doing so.

[jackofwind]

And the counter he's making, which is absolutely valid since this exact same thing has already happened when Brazil passed laws identifying HIV drugs as inherently life saving and thus would no longer recognize US patents, is that the ultimate response is US pharmaceuticals no longer participating in the market until international pressure resolves the situation. Whether or not you want to cry out that it's not stealing doesn't matter. If you are all for setting up a situation where there is no financial incentive to develop drugs, drugs will not be developed.

It matters that US companies are being paid for the use of their patents because they're still profiting from that R&D internationally, before you even take into account their domestic profits. Take away the trade agreements that force other countries to pay for the use of those patents and you're taking away profits from the drug companies. All you're talking about is reduced potential profits, but there's no way to create or enforce international regulations to actually make those hypothetical profits into tangible ones.

If the US stops participating in the market they'll just fuck themselves over more than everyone else. Let's not stand here and pretend that the profit margins for US pharmaceutical companies aren't astro-fucking-nomical.

- - - Updated - - -

What patent laws apply where is irrelevant. Canada is taking these drugs in a way that is the same as stealing based upon the US patent system so it is the same as theft to these companies. It is disincentivizing R&D since the exorbitant cost of drug development will not be offset by sales.

If you are a baker and you have a special recipe and the government allows others to use your recipe, what is your incentive to keep baking? Canada is not breaking the law, but the effect on the system is the same. Will this break the system? I do not believe so, but it is not a positive sign for the industry and tells us a great deal about the problems with the system in Canada.

There is another country that does similar corporate espionage and that is China. I don't think Canada wants to follow their example.

Yet they're also following the legal tenets of international law, they're not stealing. How the US handles patents domestically is irrelevant because those laws don't apply.

- - - Updated - - -

For zero labor Barry would copy US drugs and sell them as generics.

How exactly does one create copies of something and mass produce them for "zero labour"?

What utter horseshit.

[Deleted]

Drug patents will be valid for approximately 20 years. There are variables that can influence patent life, either to extend it or, sometimes, to shorten it.


After 20 years you or I can open up a drug factory and make a drug that was discovered today. The 20 years is so they can make some money out of the deal. It sounds fair to me, we buy generic drugs from Walmart all the time, drugs that used to cost $80 a bottle are now $3 a bottle, this is because the patent expired.

It really isn't Canada's place to dictate our laws to us.

So drug companies operate a no-strings monopoly for 20 years REGARDLESS of the time/money invested in R+D.

Also, just because something comes off patent it doesn't mean that people will rush to produce generics. For example Darapim (the drug Srhkeli caused controversy with) was an off patent medication but it was still produced in an effective monopoly allowing a 5500% price rise on a drug that was 60 years old. Even with all the outcry around that particular case, prices are still as high as they ever were (in the US at least).


If Canadian rules shouldn't apply to the US why should the opposite be true?

[Shelly]

It's our intellectual property, if we charge too much for a drug don't buy it. Stealing our intellectual property and making huge profits of it is criminal.

The only reason these companies make new drugs is because they can make a profit off of it. If they can't make money the new drug pipeline will dry up.

Canada doesn't make new drugs so we can't retaliate against Canadian drug makers, we'll have to retaliate against Canadian car parts, agricultural products, maple syrup, etc.

Oh man is it going to blow your mind when you find out that for purposes of national defense and health the United States government can at any time seize a drug patent and license it out to the lowest bidder.

[Logwyn]

Canada has been stealing US intellectual property for years, making cheap copies and selling them for cheap. These are drugs.

I thought you were all for free markets and Laissez faire. Sounds exactly what Canada is doing. I guess the USA phar needs to stop hiding behind government for protection. If someone else can do it bigger, better, faster, cheaper why not let them?

[Cthulhu 2020]

It's our intellectual property, if we charge too much for a drug don't buy it. Stealing our intellectual property and making huge profits of it is criminal.

The only reason these companies make new drugs is because they can make a profit off of it. If they can't make money the new drug pipeline will dry up.

Canada doesn't make new drugs so we can't retaliate against Canadian drug makers, we'll have to retaliate against Canadian car parts, agricultural products, maple syrup, etc.

>If we charge too much money, don't buy it.

Yes, tell that to all of the people whose lives have been saved by epipen.

[jackofwind]

I thought you were all for free markets and Laissez faire. Sounds exactly what Canada is doing. I guess the USA phar needs to stop hiding behind government for protection. If someone else can do it bigger, better, faster, cheaper why not let them?

Because the US loves to spout things like that until they're the ones that stand to get left behind, at which point they get very self-righteous and indignant about the unfairness of it all.

[Shelly]

That is exactly my point. The cost to develop drugs is crazy due to the complexity of human biochemistry. A pharmaceutical company has to bear the burden of that cost which they will not do if their products can be stolen or placed within price controls. The monetary incentive will vanish. That is why Britain and Canada are not developing new drugs as there is no incentive.

They are buying those drugs from the US companies that develop and patent them, but with the rights to those drugs these companies set the prices. Canada buys them at this price and following the their socialized medical laws sell them to consumers at a loss. This is diving them to steal to avoid losing money.

Drug R&D cost isn't all that expensive.

The expensive part is simply the time game combined with the insurance required for human testing.

Viagra started as a heart drug that one of the inventors decided to try on himself and discovered that it made his dick hard.

Nutrasweet was discovered because a dude in the lab just decided to taste what he'd made.

The fact of the matter is that drug companies are creating a service but at the same time creating a hostile marketplace against themselves and we are now looking at the repercussions of that marketplace.

[Daedius]

Got zero sympathy for the corrupt nature of big pharma in the US, profiteering off people's lives...

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Are our vassals to the north getting restless again? Don’t stress it man. I’m not sure if your complaint is a legitimate one, but even if it is, Canada isn’t a big enough market to seriously damage our business. We embarrassed the substitute drama teacher pretty badly with the Mexico deal. It’s understandable if they throw a little bit of a tantrum after we send them to their room.

[Trifle]

Drug patents will be valid for approximately 20 years. There are variables that can influence patent life, either to extend it or, sometimes, to shorten it.

After 20 years you or I can open up a drug factory and make a drug that was discovered today. The 20 years is so they can make some money out of the deal. It sounds fair to me, we buy generic drugs from Walmart all the time, drugs that used to cost $80 a bottle are now $3 a bottle, this is because the patent expired.

This isn't actually true in the US. While the patents are individually only valid for 20 years, the companies involved do a lot of dubious shit like re-patenting existing drugs or getting term extensions. Lots of drugs are locked up in patents for 40+ years.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/25/high...nt-system.html