Legit Feral buffs

[Knolan]

its amazing how they can touch a class they feel has shit damage against dragons but completely neglect to nerf hybrid healing in the same stroke

i mean dont get me wrong its kind of sad u guys r trying to figure out how to trick pve shitters into letting u farm dragons w/ them... but srsly fuck hybrid healing, its way out of control

What are you talking about, it just got nerfed last week (along with our best azerite trait).

Ferals are not very strong in PvP right now (check their arenas representation) in anything but 1 vs 1 and that is mostly to do with the fact that they can run away from pretty much anything and generate combo points on distance. So run, spam LI, use buffed ferocious bite, repeat. No one in their right mind would take a feral over a moonkin for any content right now (maybe 2s, but still pretty crappy after last week nerfs).

As of the changes:
- I really like the SR one, still I think they should allow 0 CP SR, like we had in MoP.
- Not sure where I stand in the RIP one, feral has always been a ramp up spec. It is overall a nice change, but I don't really like the direction of the change.
- The mastery one feels lazy as hell. IMO they should be giving us more options to jungle bleeds, instead of just making our mastery a flat damage increase.
- Really sad not to see any changes on our toolkit. We still have the crappiest survivability in PVE (6s wall is a joke).
- Also sad to see no changes on our offensive CDs, berserk is such a bad one and the 3 minutes CD is getting old.
- Finally, no changes to the affinities, which are in a pretty crappy state right now.

[Tradu]

What are you talking about, it just got nerfed last week (along with our best azerite trait).

Ferals are not very strong in PvP right now (check their arenas representation) in anything but 1 vs 1 and that is mostly to do with the fact that they can run away from pretty much anything and generate combo points on distance. So run, spam LI, use buffed ferocious bite, repeat. No one in their right mind would take a feral over a moonkin for any content right now (maybe 2s, but still pretty crappy after last week nerfs).

As of the changes:
- I really like the SR one, still I think they should allow 0 CP SR, like we had in MoP.
- Not sure where I stand in the RIP one, feral has always been a ramp up spec. It is overall a nice change, but I don't really like the direction of the change.
- The mastery one feels lazy as hell. IMO they should be giving us more options to jungle bleeds, instead of just making our mastery a flat damage increase.
- Really sad not to see any changes on our toolkit. We still have the crappiest survivability in PVE (6s wall is a joke).
- Also sad to see no changes on our offensive CDs, berserk is such a bad one and the 3 minutes CD is getting old.
- Finally, no changes to the affinities, which are in a pretty crappy state right now.

The Rip change is purely positive. You can still use it just like on live, but it adds flexibility and the opportunity for better players to make better use of it(by knowing when to use shorter Rips on short lived targets, for example).
No idea why you think Feral survivability is bad. 2 charges of SI as well as bear form makes it the 2nd or 3rd tankiest melee(after rogue, with WW or Ret being close to Feral and in Ret's case situationally better)

[Psybearslat]

Everyone is hating on Blood Talons and I don't really understand why. It's the only talent we have that adds some level of complexity.

In terms of the changes/additions - Primal Wrath seems like it's not going to make it out of PTR, if it does it's probably going to be at a massively reduced damage rate.
The talent itself may increase our overall dps but at the detriment to our play style. If you can apply rip to every mob in a pack almost instantly well then what is there left to do? sure sure you can tab rake but you get my point.

The mastery changes are good, maybe now it won't be our worst stat.

Blood scent removal seems good. What was a boring talent now leads to some real decision making - I personally am a strong advocate for Predator in m+ and will use it til I die.

Savage Roar may receive a little bit more love again (which would be good, balancing SR and BT was a wild ride back in the day). Whilst it's damage is nerfed the extra energy may lead to it seeing some use, though for me I am a real believer in SotF (I use it in most m+ atm) Incarnation is still lackluster - a 3min cd poised at spamming buttons is always going to struggle on a bleed class.

Brutal Slash is the most viable ST talent now ??? Great, now I'm going to be made fun of even more. Scent of Blood seems okay, but the issue here is that swipe is trash because of it's damage AND it's energy cost not simply because of it's energy cost. Combine this with the fact we have Predator and new SR, our energy issues shouldn't really be as much of an issue that we this talent would be necessary. Also, 10% BrS buff is juicy. It already hit pretty hard so this additive is going to be well felt.
Though regardless of the other two talents, in an AOE situation I imagine Primal Wrath will be a must as it simplifies your rotation to such an extent, add to that any UI issues and tab targeting etc. This talent removes all of that, so for the sake of ease this talent might just be the number 1 go to.

Final Tier talents untouched. That's aight I guess. I enjoy blood talons but it would be nice if feral frenzy felt a little more competitive in parts.

Lastly, I discuss and justify all of my opinions on feral druid whenever I stream, search for Psybearslat and come discuss with me any time!

[MookieRah]

@Psybearslat
Don’t even play feral, but after Primal Wrath why not focus down the main add? I don’t understand the complaint that you have an aoe finisher that gives you some nice bleeds on all targets. In most trash packs there is usually one tough add that needs to die asap, so it seems this is just a simple way to really beef up Feral damage in dungeons without impacting single target dps.

[Hobbes0773]

Everyone is hating on Blood Talons and I don't really understand why. It's the only talent we have that adds some level of complexity.

In terms of the changes/additions - Primal Wrath seems like it's not going to make it out of PTR, if it does it's probably going to be at a massively reduced damage rate.
The talent itself may increase our overall dps but at the detriment to our play style. If you can apply rip to every mob in a pack almost instantly well then what is there left to do? sure sure you can tab rake but you get my point.

No, I am not sure what your point is? It's not like we could accomplish that before, and the Rip duration is less than a regular rip by a significant margin. I do see it being iterated on (reduce the duration to ~6 seconds so that your aoe rotation is build 5CP with swipe > PW) but there is absolutely nothing wrong with 5CP PW > Tab rake and then PW again after 12 seconds. It is a far cry better sustained AOE than we currently have. I see 0 detriment to the play style.

The mastery changes are good, maybe now it won't be our worst stat.

Blood scent removal seems good. What was a boring talent now leads to some real decision making - I personally am a strong advocate for Predator in m+ and will use it til I die.

Savage Roar may receive a little bit more love again (which would be good, balancing SR and BT was a wild ride back in the day). Whilst it's damage is nerfed the extra energy may lead to it seeing some use, though for me I am a real believer in SotF (I use it in most m+ atm) Incarnation is still lackluster - a 3min cd poised at spamming buttons is always going to struggle on a bleed class.

Brutal Slash is the most viable ST talent now ??? Great, now I'm going to be made fun of even more. Scent of Blood seems okay, but the issue here is that swipe is trash because of it's damage AND it's energy cost not simply because of it's energy cost. Combine this with the fact we have Predator and new SR, our energy issues shouldn't really be as much of an issue that we this talent would be necessary. Also, 10% BrS buff is juicy. It already hit pretty hard so this additive is going to be well felt.

Why would BrS being ST go to cause you to be made fun of? Having a fully functioning AOE talent row is something almost every other spec has, and was the thing keeping us from AOE viability since we had to choose between ST and AOE before. Hardly anything in the game is a straight ST fight, so having the occasional aoe as part of the ST rotation is nothing but a benefit. Who is making fun of a spec for having AOE?

Though regardless of the other two talents, in an AOE situation I imagine Primal Wrath will be a must as it simplifies your rotation to such an extent, add to that any UI issues and tab targeting etc. This talent removes all of that, so for the sake of ease this talent might just be the number 1 go to.

In its current iteration, it does not remove tab targeting. It is in every conceivable metric adding complexity. It adds another button to the rotation, you still tab rake for a period of time before PW rip needs to be refreshed, etc. The talent "removes" literally nothing. As for what becomes the go to, that depends on tuning. Ideally it comes down to burst AOE, sustained AOE, and something for scent of blood. Currently is seems like SoB and PW will directly compete and we will just determine the math to decide which is taken.

[Psybearslat]

@Psybearslat
Don’t even play feral, but after Primal Wrath why not focus down the main add? I don’t understand the complaint that you have an aoe finisher that gives you some nice bleeds on all targets. In most trash packs there is usually one tough add that needs to die asap, so it seems this is just a simple way to really beef up Feral damage in dungeons without impacting single target dps.

It's not a complaint as such it's a warning that this will simplify things quite a bit.
And yes in that specific example, focusing the big boy add would be the prio and this would very much help in that situation. But that's not all situations, and in many/most situations where a prio target is not necessarily required, then it's a case of tab raking, then using FB whenever possible.

But like I say, I'm not upset by this, I'm just giving a little heads up of what this change really means.

[MookieRah]

Simplifying!= bad, especially when warranted. If the main strat for feral involved building up cp for each mob and ripping then no wonder their dungeon dps was bad. That is way too much rampup, and it isn’t really fun. Hell, with PW and raking you will still likely have your hands full juggling dots. All in all, even with PW the aoe rotation is still more involved than most specs.

I’m all for engaging rotations with skillful interactions, but this doesn’t really remove the skill so much as reduce the busywork and increase the effectiveness of the spec.

[Hobbes0773]

I'm talking about Rip tab targetting not rake tab targeting that, of course, will stay. This talent does not build complexity - see first point. I will be VERY surprised if SoB competes with a mass aoe rip. Again, it depends on damage scaling but as mentioned, swipe is bad because of damage AND energy. This talent only changes the energy requirement. 20 energy for 0 damage does not beat 40 energy for 0 damage.

"rip tab targeting" can stay as well. you just focus on the single target. again, nothing has been removed from the cycle, only added. Unless you think that single target DPSing every mob at once was a viable "AOE rotation" or even really intended...which it simply wasn't. That seems like a strange argument to even make.

"This talent does not build complexity" seeing as it literally does nothing but add to the existing rotation, add another button to press, and removes nothing from the previous rotation. You can tab rake, tab rip, whatever you'd like. Placing stronger rips on priority targets will still remain beneficial unless I am missing something about a short duration Rip being less beneficial than a longer one.

"I will be VERY surprised if SoB competes with a mass aoe rip."

Entirely depends on tuning. This is a rough draft of what they want, and inserting opinions that strong about a rough draft is pretty premature. They haven't really looked at our rotation for BFA under a microscope until this PTR cycle, so fully expect them to iterate on this before reaching any real conclusions regarding what talent will win out in the row.

[Psybearslat]

No, I am not sure what your point is? It's not like we could accomplish that before, and the Rip duration is less than a regular rip by a significant margin. I do see it being iterated on (reduce the duration to ~6 seconds so that your aoe rotation is build 5CP with swipe > PW) but there is absolutely nothing wrong with 5CP PW > Tab rake and then PW again after 12 seconds. It is a far cry better sustained AOE than we currently have. I see 0 detriment to the play style.

Why would BrS being ST go to cause you to be made fun of? Having a fully functioning AOE talent row is something almost every other spec has, and was the thing keeping us from AOE viability since we had to choose between ST and AOE before. Hardly anything in the game is a straight ST fight, so having the occasional aoe as part of the ST rotation is nothing but a benefit. Who is making fun of a spec for having AOE?

In its current iteration, it does not remove tab targeting. It is in every conceivable metric adding complexity. It adds another button to the rotation, you still tab rake for a period of time before PW rip needs to be refreshed, etc. The talent "removes" literally nothing. As for what becomes the go to, that depends on tuning. Ideally it comes down to burst AOE, sustained AOE, and something for scent of blood. Currently is seems like SoB and PW will directly compete and we will just determine the math to decide which is taken.

My point is that instead of having to build 5cp rip, build 5 cp, tab, rip, build 5 cp, tab, rip like before. Now we just build 5cp and everything gets a rip. That's my point, fella. I'm unsure if you understand what's going on here but it dramatically changes the play style. Having to Rip once every 12 seconds is very different to Ripping up 10 targets individually. Think of it as an aoe loot situation, before you'd kill 10 mobs and then have to loot one at a time, now you loot all at once. Similar mechanism.

Because BrS is a meme ability that did incredible damage in legion. It was a running joke that BrS was memey. Your second point, I agree with.

I'm talking about Rip tab targetting not rake tab targeting that, of course, will stay. This talent does not build complexity - see first point. I will be VERY surprised if SoB competes with a mass aoe rip. Again, it depends on damage scaling but as mentioned, swipe is bad because of damage AND energy. This talent only changes the energy requirement. 20 energy for 0 damage does not beat 40 energy for 0 damage.

[Hobbes0773]

My point is that instead of having to build 5cp rip, build 5 cp, tab, rip, build 5 cp, tab, rip like before. Now we just build 5cp and everything gets a rip. That's my point, fella.

I know your point. I disagree with it. That was not our aoe rotation before, and we couldn't really sustain it. That was actually just a ST rotation being applied to more than one mob. And not only that, but since PW Rip is 12 seconds, we don't lose the "build to 5CP rip" portion...that literally remains while we ADD the PW portion...making it objectively more complex, not simpler. Hell, there is nothing actually complex about "hey, you know the ST rotation? Ya do that but hit tab now." Adding an actual AOE rotation can't do anything but add complexity over that. Now you have decision making to do regarding priority targeting DPS and managing an actual AOE rotation on the others.

I'm unsure if you understand what's going on here but it dramatically changes the play style. Having to Rip once every 12 seconds is very different to Ripping up 10 targets individually. Think of it as an aoe loot situation, before you'd kill 10 mobs and then have to loot one at a time, now you loot all at once. Similar mechanism.

No, I understand. Drop the pettiness. And you didn't say "it dramatically changes the play style" you said "detriment to our play style". I don't disagree that our play style will change, that is obvious. I disagreed that it will be a detriment to the play style. Please don't put words in my mouth and then act like I am simple minded because I don't agree with your strawman.

The rest of your post is just a copy paste that you removed from a previous post for some reason, and I have already addressed it. Really weird, but maybe MMOChamp messed with the grouping of your messages idk.

[JPercussion]

You're a potato. Blizz intent isn't to make it more 'complicated.' It's to make it more accessible to newer players. If you want complexity you need to not play wow and just accept the fact that this isn't vanilla/tbc anymore. Get over yourself, don't be a potato.

[Jawstrock]

What I'm understanding:

There are now 3 aoe talent:
The aoe rip finisher
Brutal Slash
Or the swipe cost 3 less but enemy hit by trash for 6 second(So potentially free for 6 second with lots of enemy, 6 free slash, then trash again, etc.)

FB never refresh rip without talent, which was moved much earlier.

Rip was nerfed with 5 combo point(less damage), but more damage with non 5 then previously(with shorter duration. last post was showing 25% atk power for 4 sec per combo point. Each tick would always do the same damage.)

Savage roar is move to an earlier talent tier.

"predator" talent was removed.

Mastery also boost finisher along with bleeds.

Maim was changed a little

Berserk last 5 second longer.

[Psybearslat]

I know your point. I disagree with it. That was not our aoe rotation before, and we couldn't really sustain it. That was actually just a ST rotation being applied to more than one mob. And not only that, but since PW Rip is 12 seconds, we don't lose the "build to 5CP rip" portion...that literally remains while we ADD the PW portion...making it objectively more complex, not simpler. Hell, there is nothing actually complex about "hey, you know the ST rotation? Ya do that but hit tab now." Adding an actual AOE rotation can't do anything but add complexity over that. Now you have decision making to do regarding priority targeting DPS and managing an actual AOE rotation on the others.

No, I understand. Drop the pettiness. And you didn't say "it dramatically changes the play style" you said "detriment to our play style". I don't disagree that our play style will change, that is obvious. I disagreed that it will be a detriment to the play style. Please don't put words in my mouth and then act like I am simple minded because I don't agree with your strawman.

The rest of your post is just a copy paste that you removed from a previous post for some reason, and I have already addressed it. Really weird, but maybe MMOChamp messed with the grouping of your messages idk.

I mean, we can disagree with each other but there's no real way for either of us to prove ourselves here. You say it was not our aoe rotation before but it actually IS our aoe rotation. Yes, potentially with PW you may have a prio target with a full length rip and the surrounding mobs with PW but at the end of the day this will simplify an already simple aoe rotation. You're treating rip and PW as two separate abilities but realistically they're the same thing and will operate in much the same manner.

Yes because I'm being asked to defend my point, of course I'm going to exaggerate the points that need highlighting in order to reiterate. You say I'm strawmanning but I'm also one of the best feral druid players in the world so really I'm just trying to have a discussion about the future possibilities.

yeah that was an MMO format issue.

I feel like we're arguing over semantics on this one. And then you have someone like @JPercussion that probably runs LFR once a week and comes to forums to post about how the game is easy.

[Unholyground]

Feral still needs a baseline AoE finisher, that is literally the main complaint I have had for years.

[Hobbes0773]

What I'm understanding:

There are now 3 aoe talent:
The aoe rip finisher
Brutal Slash
Or the swipe cost 3 less but enemy hit by trash for 6 second(So potentially free for 6 second with lots of enemy, 6 free slash, then trash again, etc.)

FB never refresh rip without talent, which was moved much earlier.

Rip was nerfed with 5 combo point(less damage), but more damage with non 5 then previously(with shorter duration. last post was showing 25% atk power for 4 sec per combo point. Each tick would always do the same damage.)

Savage roar is move to an earlier talent tier.

"predator" talent was removed.

Mastery also boost finisher along with bleeds.

Maim was changed a little

Berserk last 5 second longer.

Rip is just a buff. The change was to make the damage the same no matter the CPS, just change the duration. This is how similar abilities work for other specs and is a great QOL change.

Predator hasn't been removed. It is still in the same spot. Blood Scent was removed.

- - - Updated - - -

You say it was not our aoe rotation before but it actually IS our aoe rotation.

Again, I did not say that. You continually misinterpret what I say and then argue from a completely different spot each time. To clarify, I stated that an AOE rotation that is essentially "It is your ST rotation but add tab to it" is not a real AOE rotation and doesn't add much complexity (since all of the complexity just continues to exist in our ST rotation), whereas an actual formalized AOE rotation with its own abilities adds 2 kinds of rotations to the kit over 1, i.e. more complexity.

Yes, potentially with PW you may have a prio target with a full length rip and the surrounding mobs with PW but at the end of the day this will simplify an already simple aoe rotation.

Since it literally only adds things to the existing rotation, it can't really be simplifying it at all. X + Y will always be more complex than just X. Objectively. Just because you tab > Rip LESS that doesn't mean it is less complex. It just meant you did X + X a lot more instead of X + Y. You are mistaking "more complex" with "just doing this more often"...because again, you'll still Rip targets with PW (except with SBT I guess? but hopefully that talent doesn't win out).

You're treating rip and PW as two separate abilities but realistically they're the same thing and will operate in much the same manner.

No. This is the crux of the disagreement. They are different and they do different things. A 12 second rip on every target vs a double the duration Rip on a priority target are vastly different. PW WILL NOT replace Rip entirely, thus adding a button, not replacing.

Yes because I'm being asked to defend my point, of course I'm going to exaggerate the points that need highlighting in order to reiterate

Never said you couldn't exaggerate. I am saying you continuously misunderstand my point and then reply to something I never said. And you considering yourself one of the best feral players has literally nothing to do with what I said or your accidental strawman arguments. What a weird place to flex?

I feel like we're arguing over semantics on this one.

We aren't. You think things will get less complex, and I find that pretty much objectively false since we only have things added to our rotation. That isn't semantics. That is a pretty clear difference.

And then you have someone like @JPercussion that probably runs LFR once a week and comes to forums to post about how the game is easy.

Ya just ignore people like that. Don't throw out additional insults and introduce further pettiness.

[Deleted]

Cant belive they're gonna let ferals wait til 8.1 for these changes.
They should have been in the game at launch.

[Chowder]

By the end of the expansion Berserk will last 2 minutes, I can't wait.

[Broski]

its amazing how they can touch a class they feel has shit damage against dragons but completely neglect to nerf hybrid healing in the same stroke

i mean dont get me wrong its kind of sad u guys r trying to figure out how to trick pve shitters into letting u farm dragons w/ them... but srsly fuck hybrid healing, its way out of control

They DID nerf hybrid healing. By a significant amount at least for druids. Check patch notes.

[Psybearslat]

Again, I did not say that. You continually misinterpret what I say and then argue from a completely different spot each time. To clarify, I stated that an AOE rotation that is essentially "It is your ST rotation but add tab to it" is not a real AOE rotation and doesn't add much complexity (since all of the complexity just continues to exist in our ST rotation), whereas an actual formalized AOE rotation with its own abilities adds 2 kinds of rotations to the kit over 1, i.e. more complexity.

I don't think I'm misinterpreting you at all. It may not be a real AOE rotation but it is the rotation that we have. And it's not really changing, is my point. Perhaps not simplification but consolidation 100%. In a M+ scenario I imagine it will be a bigger DPS increase to apply 1 PW and then ferocious bite chains rather than to apply 1 PW and 1x main prio Rip. But then that depends on the damage output of all of these abilities. I INTERPRET that you are saying that "it is your ST rotation but add tab to it" is not inherently complex and in theory it isn't. but when you're in a m+ scenario and you have mechanics to focus and you have the added complexity of dot management, the dot management involved becomes way more hectic when each rip and rake is on a different timer. When you consolidate all of your rips into a universal timer that can then be reapplied with 1 gcd you are indeed simplifying...or perhaps...consolidating if you prefer. Is it 2 kinds of rotation? Possibly, but I'd argue it's more of the same.

Since it literally only adds things to the existing rotation, it can't really be simplifying it at all. X + Y will always be more complex than just X. Objectively. Just because you tab > Rip LESS that doesn't mean it is less complex. It just meant you did X + X a lot more instead of X + Y. You are mistaking "more complex" with "just doing this more often"...because again, you'll still Rip targets with PW (except with SBT I guess? but hopefully that talent doesn't win out).

Again, this is consolidation. Yes technically you've moved from X to X + Y. but like I said previously, you've heavily removed timing management. Whereas you'd have multiple Rips all on different timings. Now you have a universal AoE rip (PW) and a ST prio Rip (if desired/necessary). So the real comparison may be X + X + X + X + X compared to X + Y.

No. This is the crux of the disagreement. They are different and they do different things. A 12 second rip on every target vs a double the duration Rip on a priority target are vastly different. PW WILL NOT replace Rip entirely, thus adding a button, not replacing.

They do the same thing with subtle differences. Both are 5cp bleeds that scale off of the same metrics. The difference lies in number of targets applied to and time applied for. That's not vastly different. I never said PW will replace Rip entirely, don't go putting words in my mouth now. It adds a button, sure. But it also removes the need to multi-Rip... consolidates.

Never said you couldn't exaggerate. I am saying you continuously misunderstand my point and then reply to something I never said. And you considering yourself one of the best feral players has literally nothing to do with what I said or your accidental strawman arguments. What a weird place to flex?

It's not an attempt at flexing it's adding a layer of credibility to what I'm suggesting. And it IS relevant because to suggest I am a strawman (offensive btw. pretty petty) is to suggest that I am uneducated in feral play. It COULD BE INTERPRETED as an attempt to disregard my opinion.

We aren't. You think things will get less complex, and I find that pretty much objectively false since we only have things added to our rotation. That isn't semantics. That is a pretty clear difference.

We haven't added, we have consolidated.

Ya just ignore people like that. Don't throw out additional insults and introduce further pettiness.[/QUOTE]

I mean, the forums are a place to celebrate meme responses surely?? You have to take everything with a pinch of salt. Make jokes where you can but get your argument across. Or well, at least that's my technique anyway.

[Hobbes0773]

I don't think I'm misinterpreting you at all.

I know. That's the problem. You are. Until you can see that there isn't any more room for discussion. I mean you literally think we are arguing semantics and you think an AOE bleed on all targets worth half the duration is the same as a single target bleed for twice the duration. Hell it doesn't even necessarily end multi-ripping like you suggest, which isn't even necessary to adding complexity.

And no, calling your argument a strawman is not offensive in the least. It is attacking your argument, not you. It is also not petty. It is illustrating that you are arguing against an argument that I never made. And yet you still insist you aren't misinterpreting me when I directly state that you are arguing against junk I never said. Maybe just be civil and drop the feigned offense in order to respond to me calling you petty (which I am confident you know you were being petty because you edited out the petty comments).

"is to suggest that I am uneducated in feral play"

No it wasn't. And I never once suggested that. You ironically just feigned offense at another strawman (arguing against something I never said nor suggested). Your error isn't in your feral knowledge (even though I disagree with it), it is in your inability to recognize that you are arguing against things I never stated, i.e. strawmen. Please take another look if you think my reason for pointing that out was to insult you, because it was actually to get you to recognize that you do not understand my position, which I have clarified more than once.

"We haven't added, we have consolidated."

Adding an entirely new ability is the opposite of consolidating. By definition. And at the end of the day, ripping over and over vs ripping + using an AOE finisher is the crux of our disagreement. I find the latter far more engaging and complex than just repeating ST on AOE, which is pretty basic.

So ya...either stop assuming you aren't misinterpreting me and actually try to see what I am saying, or there is no real point in continuing. Your choice.