Arcane or Fire are viable in M+?

[Deleted]

what are you guys doing that you cant sustain your mana lol

[Polarthief]

Arcane mana is really not a problem in m+ while clearing trash, no matter how long it lives. Anyone saying otherwise is uninformed. And if drinking for 5 seconds prior to fighting a boss makes them nonviable, then you better exclude healers in general.

You can't do max damage by going light on your mana and I'm talking between pulls of trash. As a healer, you can afford a few seconds to drink because the healer's job is to make people not die, while DPS is to DPS/control. Doing nothing during that time makes you useless for the duration that you're drinking and not fighting.

Arcane also has greater invis as an extra DR/de-aggro tool (just as good at mechanic cheesing as an extra ice block)

Uh, GI is way weaker than Ice Block. Sure it de-aggro's, but you typically don't need to do that except for maybe 1 or 2 mechanics (unless your tank is shit in which case why are you doing high keys again?); 60% DR is worse than 100%, the duration is way worse unless you don't get hit by anything during GI (why are you using a 60% DR again? For that one fixate mechanic?), and it doesn't remove debuffs/other mechanics (like Knot of Snakes from 2nd boss in Temple/Soul Roots from 2nd boss in Waycrest) from you (the main reason you Ice Block in the first place).

can spellsteal way more often than frost

Except its capability to DPS is also tied to mana, going back to the drinking issue. You also don't normally need to spam SS like that unless your group is completely incompetent with interrupts/some mechanics. Again, why do high keys with these people?

Also as a bonus if you're Horde-side, Blood Elves are the most common race by far and Arcane Torrent is very much used this expansion.

does more damage in general

Debatable, and again, the drinking thing.

and suffers from being able to only slow mobs by 50% instead of 70% or whatever frost does.

Chrono shift is a constant 50% slow on mobs while doing your normal aoe rotation

65% for Frost's baseline with Frigid Winds (15% is a huge difference; see Blizzard vs Cone of Cold which is a 20% difference; it's a VERY clear distinction between the two), and you can only snare them for ~5s at a time and it costs your charges/rotation, which unless you use Arcane Orb or get procs from Reverberate, you still have to go through FIVE GCDs to reapply your snare a pack of 5 mobs (less with less mobs, but you also can't go above 5). It's not nearly as effortless as throwing a Blizzard or Frozen Orb. You also only have Frost Nova but no Freeze (on a separate cooldown), which is a lot bigger than one might think.

And you can sustain your mana; claiming otherwise is absurdly false.

Sorry I don't really bother with Arcane in higher keys; what's the optimal thing to do? AE x4 > ABarr? That will chunk your mana in higher keys where stuff lasts awhile.

what are you guys doing that you cant sustain your mana lol

Apparently there's something I'm missing where spamming AE (with an ABarr replacing every 5th cast) lets you sustain your mana. Last I checked, AE is expensive as hell and spamming that will tax your mana pretty hard.

[Deiae]

Doing nothing during that time makes you useless for the duration that you're drinking and not fighting..

Not debating the other points. Frost has some nice perks that should be toned down to even the playing field for all other classes - but why do you think a healer doing nothing (drinking) is more useful than a dps do nothing (drinking)? If you're doing nothing you're doing nothing.

[Polarthief]

Not debating the other points. Frost has some nice perks that should be toned down to even the playing field for all other classes - but why do you think a healer doing nothing (drinking) is more useful than a dps do nothing (drinking)? If you're doing nothing you're doing nothing.

Because again, more healing doesn't always equate to doing better, while more DPS is killing stuff faster.

Healing isn't a role that is "more of a number" is absolutely inherently better. Again, your role is to make sure people die, so if people don't die, you did your job right. If there's no damage incoming (people could kite or use a stun during this part), there's not much for you to do. Sure you could do your damaging rotation, but it's not going to be as good as an actual DPS role. A DPS sitting there doing nothing is a different story though because there's always something for DPS to be doing. My point is a healer taking 5 seconds doing nothing is vastly different from a DPS doing the same thing.

Also besides Arcane, Healers are the only role that uses mana and absolutely needs it. Instead of going Arcane, you could choose a role that never has downtime, does debatable comparative DPS, and has insanely better control. There's a reason Method listed Frost Mage as #2 for best DPS roles for key pushing and Arcane/Fire are nowhere to be seen.

[Specialka]

Not debating the other points. Frost has some nice perks that should be toned down to even the playing field for all other classes - but why do you think a healer doing nothing (drinking) is more useful than a dps do nothing (drinking)? If you're doing nothing you're doing nothing.

Because a tank won't die instantly. A dps should be active 100% of the time. That is the weak point of arcane.

[Polarthief]

Because a tank won't die instantly. A dps should be active 100% of the time. That is the weak point of arcane.

It's one weak point, though apparently I'm doing it incorrectly and I'd like to know how people are sustaining their mana AND are still able to outDPS Frost in higher keys (at minimum 10+ cuz no one gives a shit about anything pre-10).

Oh and something else I didn't even bring up, Frost gives up very little to be very versatile in both AoE and ST. There's not much wiggle room in Frost overall (it's so versatile regardless) while Arcane has to entirely spec one way or the other, or some weird middle-of-the-road build, and then you're giving up a lot in the other area. Good luck giving up Charged Up for single-target, but Resonance is a hefty up to 50% damage boost to ABarr. Arcane Orb is great for AoE/when you're not using AP, but for ST/using AP, OP is just so useful. Reverberate is great for spamming AE, and Touch is great for spamming ABl. Nether Tempest is only a real option for AoE that you can't get in melee range of.

There's just a lot you have to choose between and give up for Arcane while Frost simply doesn't have that issue.

[Specialka]

It's one weak point, though apparently I'm doing it incorrectly and I'd like to know how people are sustaining their mana AND are still able to outDPS Frost in higher keys (at minimum 10+ cuz no one gives a shit about anything pre-10).

I do agree with you. On low key, arcane can do the trick because everything dies so fast. Special mention to the affix that give a dot each time a trash dies, you can't drink while you have the dot. Arcane is so competitive in mm+.

[Polarthief]

I do agree with you. On low key, arcane can do the trick because everything dies so fast.

Yeah but no one gives a crap about low keys. At minimum, 10 is what should be looked at (by people who talk like they know what they're doing at least) since you have to do at least 1 +10 a week to maximize your chest. Anything lower than a 10 has no real place for discussion when talking about a spec's performance in M+ because it's irrelevant. It's like talking about Normal dungeons in previous expansions that didn't have M+. Like yeah sure, you can talk about it, but it's so easy and dumb (and you could possibly even solo it) that who really gives a crap about it?

Arcane definitely has some nice bits, but for M+, I just see the cons outweighing the pros when matched up with Frost, at least at this very moment in time.

(but yes I will concede that Arcane is god-tier in low keys because AE is instant burst while Frost is cast times and sustained, the control/defensives don't matter as much, and you don't need to drink nearly as much)

[Specialka]

Yeah, arcane is nice in raid for ST with lots of mobility and burst, but in mm+, where trashs matter, it does not simply cut it compare to frost.

[Aphrel]

Arcane aoe is slightly behind frost aoe but even with aoe talents ahead frost on singletarget, alot ahead on shorter bossfigths where you can pretty much go 2x burn and be done. Its perfectly viable for m+
The only reason im not playing it is because the frost slow is really fucking great and often a lifesaver for tanks. (unless its sanguine... sigh)

[Unholyground]

I enjoyed launch but I am done when my time runs out in 7 days. Too many other games coming out to justify RNGesus' cock in my mouth all the time.

[Sxq]

On aoe-heavy keys/affixes you'd talent into reverb and arcane orb which both save you mana and allow you to go full steam aoe for a long time without issue (orb costs very little and gives 4 free charges, reverb means you cast 2-4 explosions per barrage instead of always 4)

If you have different talents or have an extremely long fight you replace the 4th explosion with an arcane blast to sacrifice a tiny tiny amount of damage in exchange for a no-mana cast and end up being mana neutral

Charged up vs resonance is really not that big of a loss on single target (same with totm and even op vs orb, especially if the boss fight has any adds ever)


Fwiw I've been doing 10+ keys almost exclusively since the second week (and I did a +13 the first week lol)


If you're going to name a real weakness for arcane it would be that it has shit 2 target damage, and that it can't "cleave" effectively, aka pump a lot of priority target damage while still doing some aoe

But arcane is better than frost on single target and *at least* as good in most aoe situations.

[Deleted]

Apparently there's something I'm missing where spamming AE (with an ABarr replacing every 5th cast) lets you sustain your mana. Last I checked, AE is expensive as hell and spamming that will tax your mana pretty hard.

you dont have to hold your evo until bossfights ... slowly burn your mana and once you are at 0 use your evo and go agane. i rarely have to drink in m+ .

you also dont have to have evo rdy at the beginning of the bossfight. if you dont have lust it doesnt matter if you burn your 2nd rop at the start or later in the fight.

use evo on cd and only burn to 0 on bossfights once you get evo back.

also i suggest using reverberate in m+ especially fortified. its not like the 5% random magi dps on bosses will make or break you. that makes mana sustain easier.

and if you really have problems managing your evo, just arcan blast after the 3rd AE for rule of three. i do that on worst case scenarios, but rarely.

the biggest problems of arcane are: 2 target cleave (3 target also not that great tbh), less control and doesnt scale with more monsters like frost.

in other words, arcanes biggest weakness is that frost is more usefull most of the time and better once we get to bigger pulls. arcane is actually not that weak.

EDIT: personal subjective opinion.

[Doffen]

(Arcane) Galvanizing Spark: damage reduced by 30% (unchanged in PvP).
(Arcane) Explosive Echo: damage reduced by 35%

Yeah, forget the Explosive Echo being awesome I guess. I don't get this change? Arcane isn't dominating anything atm. Buff other traits then to compensate if these traits are too good...

I see they also added this though:
Arcane Mage: all damage increased by 3%. They did buff the damage to compensate :P

[Specialka]

They want ppl to raid to get the azerite pieces with raid traits. Because, for instance, a azerite piece 340 was better with Galvanizing spark than a 370.

[CptEgo]

what are you guys doing that you cant sustain your mana lol

If you don't drop charges you will run out of mana quickly.

[Specialka]

If you don't drop charges you will run out of mana quickly.

Arcane explosion is not tied to charge, it always costs the same. But it does not mean you won't run oom by spamming it, it costs something like 10k mana.

[Doffen]

They want ppl to raid to get the azerite pieces with raid traits. Because, for instance, a azerite piece 340 was better with Galvanizing spark than a 370.

Yeah, I got that ingame atm, perhaps it's time to swap now

[Scoobydank]

They want ppl to raid to get the azerite pieces with raid traits. Because, for instance, a azerite piece 340 was better with Galvanizing spark than a 370.

That’s not actually the case though, a 370 will nearly always be better than a 340 with GS, as the traits scale with ilvl, plus intellect. GS is not THAT good. this nerf will drop it’s position in our priority trait list by 1 spot, beaten only by dagger in the back and LM/Archive with 5+ Reorigination

[kenoathcarn]

Arcane is a bit too ST for M+. Arcane aoe is meh, since you can't sustained it for long.

And fire seems meh overall.

haha what? have you even played arcane?

Arcane AoE is insane :/ literally top every pull on anything above 3 mobs.

- - - Updated - - -

You either specialized in aoe or ST, yeah, Arcane is not a specialized school WHile melee can do it currently with a single spec.

https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/mage/arcane/c6Iz

Arcane Pressure x3, mobs go below 35% and u will be critting AB's for 200k+ if you have ROP+OP