Kaldorei as Forsaken in 8.1: ..Why?

[Kithelle]

Nah, i just don't see the point of busting your fanfic in more than one sentence.
In the end you gonna end up defaulting to your "Horde bias" "Sylvanas white knights" (tho you already did that in this thread) so why bother too much ?

I see...you can't argue with proof so you need to scramble and call it my fanfic because you need to defend your sweet innocent little flower? So sad...you used to be worth a fun to read comeback now and then but this is all you have left is "nuh uhs" or "I know you are, but what am I's"

I guess I can't blame you, only so much you can defend a person when all of the evidence is against them...you say she isn't evil then she slaughters thousands...you say she didn't burn the tree, that it was some Alliance trying to prevent her from controlling it and to start a war, then she blatantly burned down the tree. You say that the ones she raises have free will and that no one but her will accept them, when time and time again it has been proven that the Alliance can accept Undead.

I get it...you can't defend her despite your heart still beating for her. Perhaps it's time to walk away gracefully...

[Arrashi]

I see...you can't argue with proof so you need to scramble and call it my fanfic because you need to defend your sweet innocent little flower? So sad...you used to be worth a fun to read comeback now and then but this is all you have left is "nuh uhs" or "I know you are, but what am I's"

I guess I can't blame you, only so much you can defend a person when all of the evidence is against them...you say she isn't evil then she slaughters thousands...you say she didn't burn the tree, that it was some Alliance trying to prevent her from controlling it and to start a war, then she blatantly burned down the tree. You say that the ones she raises have free will and that no one but her will accept them, when time and time again it has been proven that the Alliance can accept Undead.

I get it...you can't defend her despite your heart still beating for her. Perhaps it's time to walk away gracefully...

My proofs are blues from devs. The ones that explicitly say there is no mind control.

[Melsiren]

My proofs are blues from devs. The ones that explicitly say there is no mind control.

Feelings> word of god.

Stop trolling Arrashi and validate their feelings. Embrace Anduin and Human potential embrace feelings!

[Deleted]

While there might be some merit to this explanation, I don't think it holds up completely due to the rigidity of the change itself. For this specific example? Maybe, though it is still weird that she would follow the one that 'damned' her forcefully into undeath. Mind you, Arthas killed her but did not raise her. It was Sylvanas who came for her years after death and raised her, by her own words, using the Val'kyr ostensibly. It does not really jive that someone would become a fanatic loyalist after that, eager enough to rush into alternate Draenor just to please the Dark Lady, without some form of mind control being utilized.
Or rather, let's call it a compulsion more than what is commonly seen as 'mind control'. The people raised by Sylvanas are not mindless extensions of her, after all. They are able to move and think on their own. However, they also seem to be compelled to serve her in an unnatural way, one that cannot be explained away by 'the rest of the world would not accept them'.

Let's look at some examples here.
The inhabitants of Fenris Isle. They are ressurected and immediately join the Forsaken. No thought, no conversation, they just pick up arms and attack their friends and families.
The Kaldorei raised by the OP's reference. Again, people joining their murderers to fight their former friends.
The Desolate Council from the book. Now, there are some peculiar things about these guys. First, they are 'first generation' Forsaken, i.e. those originally raised by Arthas. They are among the oldest ones there are as a result of this, and they are not directly raised by Sylvanas or her Valkyr. Now, the following is obviously spoilers for the book, so the warning is up. Anyway, the desolate council, as a whole, is loyal to Sylvanas. They did not start some coup, but are just citizens that stepped up to take over administrative duties while she was gone. However, some of them tried to escape, in order to join the living.
The Royal Apothecary Association. Or rather, the ones involved in the coup. Those guys actively defied Sylvanas, tried to kill her, etc. Notably, the coup happened in Wrath, before Sylvanas acquired the Valkyr and subsequently that means they are all first generation Forsaken.

Going by this - admittedly small - sample, I would propose a bit of a theory here. Forsaken are not all the same. There might be two distinct generations of Forsaken, distinguished by who raised them.
The first generation was raised by Arthas. They, at first, were under his complete control. While it might have appeared that they were but mindless minions in Warcraft 3, some retained their personality while still being bound in his service, just like Syl herself. There are likely sub classes there. What is important though is that when Arthas' powers waned, the compulsion was lifted from them. They became the first Forsaken and were able to carve out their own path. This is the part of her people that Sylvanas has to actively rule and appease, the people whom she actually, to an extent, seems to fear - because they are able to betray her. They don't seem to be bound by the same compulsion, albeit maybe by a lesser version of it, possibly due to innate banshee abilities. They seem to have a personality close to their old, if the interactions in BtS are any indication.
The second generation though, those are the ones raised after Wrath, by Syl, through the Valkyr. Those appear to be bound to her will immediately after being raised, much like those raised by Arthas were initially. So far, we have not really seen any of those rebel against Syl in any capacity, and often pull a complete one-eighty personality and allegiance wise within moments. Potentially, they might revert back more to their older selves, if Sylvanas' power on them was limited again.

Well, it is an hypothesis at least, but it would explain why some Forsaken seem to be more loyal to Syl than others, or why some are more antagonistic to the living than others.

The thing is, from Delaryn's inner thoughts we know she didn't even blame Sylvanas. She blamed first herself and then Elune. Nowhere in her inner hate-speech to herself she mentions Sylvanas. First it's 'what have I done' and then it's 'Shame on Elune'. No Sylvanas. I'm not sure if Sylvanas is doing this on purpose or if you even can do this on purpose, but in Elegy and A Good War she managed to place the blame for her own deeds on the shoulders of others, who afterwards were almost insanely overcome with guilt. Saurfang and Delaryn.
I call that manipulation. And I also think that's the whole thing with the Forsaken.

But I also think that when she has the Val'kyr raise people into undeath they are not yet actual Forsaken to her. They are weapons. So if it's in the middle of a fight, the mind-control stays until the fight is over. Afterwards she takes the mindcontrol away and they get the ususal choice, then become Forsaken.
Plus I also believe that being raised into Undeath, which is a thing that has been described many times as a horrible, painful and unbelievable tormenting thing causes a kind of PTSD. And they suffer from it accordingly. Some people can overcome it and afterwards seem almost as before (in the case of Undeath apart from the body, ofc), some people go utterly mad and cause unto others what was done to them, some just fall into depression and again others a mixture of all of this. In Brill, the guy selling the chicken food tells you that sometimes he wonders if his relatives in Westfall are still alive, but then discovers, that it doesn't really matter to him actually and he wonders why. It sounds a lot like some form of depression. (William Saldean is his name)

Also you have to consider, that this state causes probably a lot of anxiety and insecurity. Whatever will they do? Well, that's easy to exploit. You tell them they are hated by all and they are now considered monsters, but not to be afraid, because here's a group that understands them and welcomes them. You even have good examples, because I'm sure Sylvanas knows that the living naturally fear the undead, especially if they come across them unprepared. She was very surprised that some of the humans at Arathi were not backing down and wanted to actually overcome their fear.
Then some peer pressure and they're sold on the idea that maybe that's where they belong, even if they were reluctant at first.

But in all that time you still give them choice and freedom.

So, my take on it is, the actual mindcontrol is really only applied at the very first, and only if really necessary (like in the middle of a fight) and afterwards you let the damage from being raised and the manipulation do their thing, boom, you have loyal subjects.
If they get restless and want something more, you gracefully let them go (like Reigol Valdread in 'Traveller'), because that way you can save face and also remove them from your society before they cause unrest, like for example the council did. Can't do that with highly visible figures like the council ofc, unless it's not more than one of them. And not on the open field deserting.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is much better than mind control, but it is more along the lines of mundane tyranny. In a very advanced version.

[Clone]

Night Elf corpses switching sides after animation makes no sense, they should first try to kill their animator to demonstrate their continued loyalty to the Alliance.

The least logical choice is joining a group and killing your friends and family.

Why should any night elf, even undead show any loyalty to Sylvanas? That does not make any sense for most night elves (maybe some weak minded, but these are probably no dark ranger material)

Whahaha yeah makes totally sense Sylvanas can raise dead Night Elves now and they immediately turn against their people.

Sorry, but no, it makes zero sense.

It makes no sense to you guys because you are stuck in your own paradigm. The "hate myself" trope is used frequently in fiction and happens in real life as well. It's perfectly logical for people to renounce their former selves after traumatic events. The dead sentinels of Darkshore in this case, can grow to despise themselves for being too weak to protect their homes, and lash out at anything associated with their former lives.

It's easy writing man, learn to think outside yourself for once.

[eurojust]

It makes no sense to you guys because you are stuck in your own paradigm. The "hate myself" trope is used frequently in fiction and happens in real life as well. It's perfectly logical for people to renounce their former selves after traumatic events. The dead sentinels of Darkshore in this case, can grow to despise themselves for being too weak to protect their homes, and lash out at anything associated with their former lives.

It's easy writing man, learn to think outside yourself for once.

What was the main goal of the forsaken before wotlk again?
Did they side with the one who butchered them the moment they got their free will?

[seleri]

It makes no sense to you guys because you are stuck in your own paradigm. The "hate myself" trope is used frequently in fiction and happens in real life as well. It's perfectly logical for people to renounce their former selves after traumatic events. The dead sentinels of Darkshore in this case, can grow to despise themselves for being too weak to protect their homes, and lash out at anything associated with their former lives.

It's easy writing man, learn to think outside yourself for once.

That's all well and good as long as they hate Sylvanas and the people that killed them in the first place as well. If they're going to lash out at anything associated with their former lives, then it seems like the people that ended their former lives would be the first target. Them getting resurrected and immediately allying with Sylvanas would just be weird.

[Doffen]

It makes no sense to you guys because you are stuck in your own paradigm. The "hate myself" trope is used frequently in fiction and happens in real life as well. It's perfectly logical for people to renounce their former selves after traumatic events. The dead sentinels of Darkshore in this case, can grow to despise themselves for being too weak to protect their homes, and lash out at anything associated with their former lives.

It's easy writing man, learn to think outside yourself for once.

Sure it's easy writing, but it's ok to have some form of critical judgement on the shift of things in the lore. The problem isn't how they make the story, it's how the story is explained. If they take the liberty to do any asspull, of course someone is gonna think it's weird. The undead could have brain damage for all I care(and maybe that's how they suddenly hate their people, they don't know any better). They kind of need to explain how the Kaldorei Dark Rangers suddenly change their loyalty. It's not enough to just say "here you go, now we also have Night Elf Forsaken and they now hate their people and will kill them without any remorse" and then leave it at that. Like I said, it makes no sense.

Other than that, sure, it's totally fine. But don't expect everyone to agree with it. But the lore is how it is, and thinking outside the box is good

[Clone]

What was the main goal of the forsaken before wotlk again?
Did they side with the one who butchered them the moment they got their free will?

Two different stories doesn't need to be identical.

That's all well and good as long as they hate Sylvanas and the people that killed them in the first place as well. If they're going to lash out at anything associated with their former lives, then it seems like the people that ended their former lives would be the first target. Them getting resurrected and immediately allying with Sylvanas would just be weird.

They can see Sylvanas as liberator of their weakness. There are many ways to write this, and it doesn't have to go the way you want. Neither are you an authority on what is logical.

Sure it's easy writing, but it's ok to have some form of critical judgement on the shift of things in the lore. The problem isn't how they make the story, it's how the story is explained. If they take the liberty to do any asspull, of course someone is gonna think it's weird. The undead could have brain damage for all I care(and maybe that's how they suddenly hate their people, they don't know any better). They kind of need to explain how the Kaldorei Dark Rangers suddenly change their loyalty. It's not enough to just say "here you go, now we also have Night Elf Forsaken and they now hate their people and will kill them without any remorse" and then leave it at that. Like I said, it makes no sense.

Other than that, sure, it's totally fine. But don't expect everyone to agree with it. But the lore is how it is, and thinking outside the box is good

You are not going to get an explanation until the patch comes out. Any criticism at a lack of explanation now is going to be premature since the story is not released.

[Doffen]

You are not going to get an explanation until the patch comes out. Any criticism at a lack of explanation now is going to be premature since the story is not released.

In the same way as swallowing everything without being critical at all. It's still an asspull(like void elves right) but we'll see how they do it. At the moment it doesn't make sense(to me), and that's what my response to you was about, not so much about the tiny part about explanation.

[Deleted]

At some point blizzard need to confirm what happens when an undead is brought back, are the same being or not. Do they have free will or not... they need to explain why undead nelves don't hate sylvannas for cursing them.

In WoW there are many types of undead. Some retain most of the intellect and personality they had in life, others are just hateful wraiths and zombies. I guess it depends on how much of the original soul is left. But yeah, some kind of clarification would be nice.

In any case, I can't imagine how any of the murdered Night Elves would ever willingly serve Sylvanas -- or the Horde in general -- even in death.

[seleri]

They can see Sylvanas as liberator of their weakness. There are many ways to write this, and it doesn't have to go the way you want. Neither are you an authority on what is logical.

There are many ways to write most scenarios. Doesn't mean they're all good or make sense.

I don't particularly care how it goes, as long as it makes sense within the lore.

[Baroclinic]

In WoW there are many types of undead. Some retain most of the intellect and personality they had in life, others are just hateful wraiths and zombies. I guess it depends on how much of the original soul is left. But yeah, some kind of clarification would be nice.

In any case, I can't imagine how any of the murdered Night Elves would ever willingly serve Sylvanas -- or the Horde in general -- even in death.

I just remember the ole Cata quest, where we get to watch Sylvannas make a new batch of Forsaken with Garrosh in attendance. Gilneans she had just removed from the world. None of them got up and we're like "wtf", they're always "Glory to the Forsaken!". I'm thinking suspicious or just bad writing.

Then we get to Lilian Voss, who spent 2 expansions going on about how undeadth is a curse... now she's even "Glory to the Forsaken". Not to mention the dark Ranger saying how she was having a nice rest until Sylvannas raised her as an undead abomination to serve her.

And ya know, Varimethris had a few choice phases that I'm pretty sure we're referring to our favorite dark lady.

[Jastall]

It makes no sense to you guys because you are stuck in your own paradigm. The "hate myself" trope is used frequently in fiction and happens in real life as well. It's perfectly logical for people to renounce their former selves after traumatic events. The dead sentinels of Darkshore in this case, can grow to despise themselves for being too weak to protect their homes, and lash out at anything associated with their former lives.

It's easy writing man, learn to think outside yourself for once.

That would justify them no longer wanting to exist within mainstream human or NE society.

It does not justify the Forsaken instantly joining the Sylvanas personality cult and declaring war on the living because mwahahaha eeeevil.

Used to be this option was, at least, represented in Voss. Now that's gone and everyone loves Sylvanas, but hey, free will amrite.

And before anyone goes "but its canon guys" I don't doubt the canonicity of the lack of mind control. I'm just pointing out that Blizzard is making things easy on themselves by just contriving a way to have pretty much every single Forsaken risen undead in the story be fine with joining them so the free will element is rendered pretty much moot anyway. There's tons of dumb things that are canon in Warcraft. This is one of them.

[mickybrighteyes]

I don't think any attempt was done to reach out to the Alliance after Sylvanas' first attempt at sending emissaries (after killing a group of humans after making a deal with them, just for the kicks).

Maybe you want to reword this so it doesn't seem like you're forgetting a very recent event to point out how cruel and crazy forsaken are... a certain meeting in Arathi did happen and involved reaching out by both parties.

Your argument about bickering families is basically anecdotal. Of course there are families who bicker, even while all parties are still alive. Bad apples and all that. We're talking about the forsaken as a whole. And, as a whole, the forsaken hates humans and take glee in their suffering. Again, there is a difference between resenting someone for being shunned, and taking pleasure in seeing said someone agonize and eventually die a painful death.

I'd call the same thing about your own statements since EVERY faction has such people present and they take presence in the story depending on what's being told. It just seems people are more willing to let a human slide for their desire for wanton violence directed at people because of their sob story more so than forsaken who are getting judged because of a few questlines.

maybe you're forgetting the times where you're interacting with folk that barely have the mental faculties to understand what they are, and disregarding teh petty squabbles that indicate they aren't being directly compelled mentally. You seeing an organization or two wanting to rule the world isn't proof teh species lacks free will or is evil as a whole... otherwise we'd have a hard time determining humanity as a group isn't the same.

[Clone]

That would justify them no longer wanting to exist within mainstream human or NE society.

It does not justify the Forsaken instantly joining the Sylvanas personality cult and declaring war on the living because mwahahaha eeeevil.

Used to be this option was, at least, represented in Voss. Now that's gone and everyone loves Sylvanas, but hey, free will amrite.

And before anyone goes "but its canon guys" I don't doubt the canonicity of the lack of mind control. I'm just pointing out that Blizzard is making things easy on themselves by just contriving a way to have pretty much every single Forsaken risen undead in the story be fine with joining them so the free will element is rendered pretty much moot anyway. There's tons of dumb things that are canon in Warcraft. This is one of them.

It could be that the Forsaken are a decent enough vehicle for the newly risen to enact their desires.

Also, joining the Forsaken does not mean joining the Sylvanas cult. This has been demonstrated numerous times throughout the game.

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There are many ways to write most scenarios. Doesn't mean they're all good or make sense.

I don't particularly care how it goes, as long as it makes sense within the lore.

That's just it, them joining Sylvanas can make sense. The only issue here is people not liking it.

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In the same way as swallowing everything without being critical at all. It's still an asspull(like void elves right) but we'll see how they do it. At the moment it doesn't make sense(to me), and that's what my response to you was about, not so much about the tiny part about explanation.

That sounds reasonable, it's always good to voice grievances ahead of time. I agree that they need to explain how the change of allegiance come about, but saying they are wrong for not doing it before the final product is released is unreasonable.

[Kithelle]

My proofs are blues from devs. The ones that explicitly say there is no mind control.

Once again...the devs have either lied or went back and completely changed what they said originally happened.

But I guess you're ignoring their history because it fits your poor narrative and your need to defend your virtual lady.

#MorallyGrey is a big fucking lie but they kept saying it...I would ask what more proof do you need...but we know proof means nothing till they slap you in the face with it after they made it clear "SHE" burned down the tree.

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In WoW there are many types of undead. Some retain most of the intellect and personality they had in life, others are just hateful wraiths and zombies. I guess it depends on how much of the original soul is left. But yeah, some kind of clarification would be nice.

In any case, I can't imagine how any of the murdered Night Elves would ever willingly serve Sylvanas -- or the Horde in general -- even in death.

They need their memories in order to retain their abilities...can't just wipe someones memory and expect them to pick up a bow and to use it with as much skill and mastery as if they never lost any.

It's brainwashing at the very least...manipulating to serve her, but I guess in some peoples head canon that is a perfectly innocent and wholesome act.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Once again...the devs have either lied or went back and completely changed what they said originally happened.

But I guess you're ignoring their history because it fits your poor narrative and your need to defend your virtual lady.

#MorallyGrey is a big fucking lie but they kept saying it...I would ask what more proof do you need...but we know proof means nothing till they slap you in the face with it after they made it clear "SHE" burned down the tree.

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They need their memories in order to retain their abilities...can't just wipe someones memory and expect them to pick up a bow and to use it with as much skill and mastery as if they never lost any.

It's brainwashing at the very least...manipulating to serve her, but I guess in some peoples head canon that is a perfectly innocent and wholesome act.

You're only argument against canon lore once again is "My opinion is that it doesn't count, therefore it doesn't count."

You can keep repeating it all you want, you musts be aware at least partially that your entire "argument" hinges one people taking your opinion seriously enough that they hold it over what's currently canon.

For all your talk of facts, you sure do everything in your power to try to deny them. But that seems to be your go-to with anything WoW related if you want something, facts be damned, all that matters is your opinion.

TLDR, you're opinion is not canon, nor does saying "They must have changed it" changes what is and what isn't canon, no matter how many times you repeat yourself, or accuse people who point out what is simple for so many as white knighting/poor narratives.

[Rendark]

Makes sense to me that Night Elves would join the Forsaken after being made undead. Doesn't it say somewhere that being undead dampens positive emotions and enhances negative ones? If so then they wouldn't care so much about there family and people that were killed. Instead they would resent the ones that are still alive. They would resent Tyrande for failing to save them. They would be pissed that the Alliance let this happen.

[Ielenia]

Maybe you want to reword this so it doesn't seem like you're forgetting a very recent event to point out how cruel and crazy forsaken are... a certain meeting in Arathi did happen and involved reaching out by both parties.

I was talking about "in the past", tbh.

I'd call the same thing about your own statements since EVERY faction has such people present and they take presence in the story depending on what's being told. It just seems people are more willing to let a human slide for their desire for wanton violence directed at people because of their sob story more so than forsaken who are getting judged because of a few questlines.

maybe you're forgetting the times where you're interacting with folk that barely have the mental faculties to understand what they are, and disregarding teh petty squabbles that indicate they aren't being directly compelled mentally. You seeing an organization or two wanting to rule the world isn't proof teh species lacks free will or is evil as a whole... otherwise we'd have a hard time determining humanity as a group isn't the same.

Except the forsaken basically worship/idolize Sylvanas. It doesn't look like they serve Sylvanas "because they have no other option". The way they speak of Sylvanas, with lines like "Dark Lady watch over you" indicates they more than willingly serve her, almost like a devotion.

And I have not a single problem with the forsaken being evil. My issue is in the why and how.

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Forsaken's epitome as a race is will. The stronger your will is the stronger your drive to push on. Rise up as a mindless zombie or be willful and have control of your used to be dead but now once again "alive" state of undeath.

Forsaken cannot be charmed or mind controlled, they can withstand fear - of being hurt or even dying because they have tasted death and know how it feels like; that after death something awaits.

Actually, "death" to a forsaken seems to be something worse than simple death. Sylvanas, for example, is scared of death, after having "died" a couple times, already. There is also the Ranger Captain Areiel that you, as Alliance, kill in Nazmir, and, when dying, she says: "Darkness... Sylvanas... is this what you saw... what you wished to save us from?"