What is an acceptable level of mistuning?

[styil]

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...ge=30#post-584

In a recent discussion about Azerite traits, Ythisens makes the following blue post:
"I know it doesn't feel good to have these sort of things on live affecting your gameplay but it happens. It's hard to find every possible thing before it goes live."

Which raises the question, what is an acceptable number of "these sort of things on live"?

From the hundreds of mistuned and/or bugged Azerite traits, complete class imbalance, classes intentionally released unfinished, Warfront adjustments, and so on. When it does it go from 'things slipping through the net' to 'this is a systemic issue that needs addressing from the top'?

[lolbubble]

It's hard to find every possible thing before it goes live.

Its also very hard to fuck up things this badly tuning wise where you have these wild adjustments every week.

BFA is a train wreck right now.

[Schmilblick]

BFA is still in Beta, when will you realize it ?

[Soon-TM]

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...ge=30#post-584

In a recent discussion about Azerite traits, Ythisens makes the following blue post:
"I know it doesn't feel good to have these sort of things on live affecting your gameplay but it happens. It's hard to find every possible thing before it goes live."

Which raises the question, what is an acceptable number of "these sort of things on live"?

From the hundreds of mistuned and/or bugged Azerite traits, complete class imbalance, classes intentionally released unfinished, Warfront adjustments, and so on. When it does it go from 'things slipping through the net' to 'this is a systemic issue that needs addressing from the top'?

Beta for Azeroth is real. This xpac has been obviously rushed, and we're paying to beta test it. GG Blizzard.

[owbu]

What does acceptable mean?

All xpacs were a mess and had massive tuning happening after their release, so apparently people accept mistuning as a thing that happens.

[styil]

What does acceptable mean?

All xpacs were a mess and had massive tuning happening after their release, so apparently people accept mistuning as a thing that happens.

Putting aside the fact that this is now their 7th time releasing an expansion, do you honestly believe that there has been this much iteration in previous expansions?

[Frolk]

It becomes acceptable when we go 2 weeks without traits being buffed by 100% and nerfed by 50%

[Malikath]

ST DPS for all DPS specs should be within a 3% margin.
all classes need mobility to deal with mechanics in PvE and close the gap/escape in PvP.
every class needs at least 3 shared raid benefits and a unique perk to the raid.

[Thelyron]

>what is an acceptable number of "these sort of things on live"?

0

[Mafic]

It becomes acceptable when we go 2 weeks without traits being buffed by 100% and nerfed by 50%

I agree.

For me it has to be a slow down in big buff/nerf swings. I am all for gradual changes but not huge spikes that disrupt players too much once the game is live.

[Deleted]

>what is an acceptable number of "these sort of things on live"?

0

thats not acceptable or realistic

[Tradu]

When you have to change a TON of traits to the tune of multiple hundreds of % buffs or 50%+ nerfs, you fucked up massively. There's no excuse for that, they just picked random numbers and went with it. Any minor amount of actual math would've shown them they were massively unbalanced.
They claim every expansion launch is this bad, which is just straight up not true. They didn't properly make use of internal tests/alpha/beta, and clearly made way more changes than they're capable of balancing. The solution to that should be to change less if you can't actually balance it even remotely decently.

[Kobor]

ST DPS for all DPS specs should be within a 3% margin.
all classes need mobility to deal with mechanics in PvE and close the gap/escape in PvP.
every class needs at least 3 shared raid benefits and a unique perk to the raid.

Well said, if tools/web sites can simulate dps on classes with different gears, why Blizzard can not do it themselves before putting things to Live or even PTR servers???

[ElDoorO]

A company with the resources of Blizzard? I'd expect 5% or so to be off. Anymore and it's sheer laziness.

They claimed, many years ago, that they hired some of the brightest people who were very good at math and helping with issues like these.
Either those people quit or they aren't very good. I'm thinking it's the former.
They had a long time to look at reports and issues in Beta.

Changes as large as 10% on spells seem pretty large to me and anymore than 10% seems ridiculous and someone should be openly saying the fucked up bad.

I'm still bitter about their attitude about Brewmasters pre-Legion and how arrogant they are so I'm not surprised they are screwing up like a dinky indie company.

[Coldfire989]

What does acceptable mean?

All xpacs were a mess and had massive tuning happening after their release, so apparently people accept mistuning as a thing that happens.

LOL not even close did you just start playing?

[shadofall]

this is why i'm always against any type of stat squish.

[Tradu]

Well said, if tools/web sites can simulate dps on classes with different gears, why Blizzard can not do it themselves before putting things to Live or even PTR servers???

They can. In fact they can do better, by having actual in-game bots doing the "simulations". They even claim they do so, which is insane considering how much stuff they miss.

[Mafic]

A company with the resources of Blizzard? I'd expect 5% or so to be off. Anymore and it's sheer laziness.

They claimed, many years ago, that they hired some of the brightest people who were very good at math and helping with issues like these.
Either those people quit or they aren't very good. I'm thinking it's the former.
They had a long time to look at reports and issues in Beta.

Changes as large as 10% on spells seem pretty large to me and anymore than 10% seems ridiculous and someone should be openly saying the fucked up bad.

I'm still bitter about their attitude about Brewmasters pre-Legion and how arrogant they are so I'm not surprised they are screwing up like a dinky indie company.

Maybe they do not have sophisticated tools like we have been led to believe? Maybe the wow theorycraft and sim community has them beat?

[Exeris]

I can understand that they mess up a little on different things when the game has grown so large but this was supposed to be one of the main selling points of the expansion, would've thought they gave it some level of priority before release but almost feels like they forgot about it instead. (not the first time I got that feeling playing BFA)

[Thirtyrock]

When you have to change a TON of traits to the tune of multiple hundreds of % buffs or 50%+ nerfs, you fucked up massively. There's no excuse for that, they just picked random numbers and went with it. Any minor amount of actual math would've shown them they were massively unbalanced.

This is naive. The complex interactions of all possible encounters, combined with players willingness and abilities to come up with new spec and trait combinations and new rotations etc. means that there is virtually no way to just math this stuff out. When they get to see the millions of pieces of data coming in from live servers all of a sudden you have a very clear picture which wasn't available before.

I mean, consider a simple question of balancing between a generic +main stat proc and a defense trait for a tank. Which ones will overperform? Well, it depends on how much damage reduction is given vs how much dps is gained/lost vs how the procs work combined with what sort of encounters the tank is running on a regular basis. You really can't see which of those is going to overperform or underperform until you see it in action. There are just too many moving parts, and that's just one piece of gear for a tank. When they added hundreds of azerite traits for dozens of specs you get an absurd number of interactions.

Now, the argument could be made that they shouldn't have run down this road in the first place for that very reason, because it's a system that CAN'T be balanced in beta, possibly can't be balanced even on live with all the incoming data. But it's not a minor bit of math you're talking about.