Blizzard talks about Azerite issues

[cface]

Do you remember legendaries? Holy shit that was a balance shit show, and the first months was pure cancer in how to obtain them. I remember I hated getting one, I was anxious about getting one, cause the probability to get a shit one was so high.
But the artifact weapon was a blessing, I truly enjoyed that, lots of cool classpowers to both made it fun and powerful. The only fix to legendaries was number tweaking and getting them easier.

Now we got this shit system, and there is no going back. It's not fun, the traits are so boring, it's like having 5 trinkets, and I think 2 was more then enough. And for this they gave up artifact powers, legendary effects and set bonuses.

How can they "fix" this? We need way more cool effects on them. I guess they are holding back, and eventually we will have something pretty powerful and it wont be as bad. Every single launch is a nightmare, which is why I find later stages of an expansion much more fun.

[Deleted]

The thing is Azerite is a mess. People don't like it, but since the entirety of Battle for Azeroth revolves, well let's just say we are done for it. Azerite is just a system Blizzard bases on to make people stay in the game by giving a sense of "Gosh, there are things to grind and if I don't, I'll fall behind". The fact is, BFA is plagued, it won't change and it can't change since the expansion is based on this. At best, the next expansion will not have this kind of feature (since it was already largely criticized at Legion), worst case... whelp.

[kaid]

Did he really say (in other words) "When you feel sims are needed, shit can't be that unteresting!" ?? What is this "logic"? People HAVE TO sim because they have no idea which item is better over another. I hate this pseudo smartass you could also see it like this "argumentation" that make valid arguments look actually not that valid. Lore obviously learned his lawyer lessions.

What we need are less "(unknown) Chance to increase your main stat for a while" traits and more *interesting* things like "Chance to summon Echo of Sargeras out of oblivion to cleave all enemies around to hell for a total damage of X proccing approx. 3 times per minute".

I agree with this. It is not simming because the traits are that useful or powerful it is simming because you can't know by just reading the text on the item if it is worth equiping or not or how to judge between two items with obscure procs. Honestly until they get this stuff locked down better I just go by pure ilevel and then pick whatever traits at a glance look less bad and then move on. I figure everything is so much in flux there is no point doing any reforging or hunting for specific items. Also as a side note I am also leaning more to the generic traits because at least then I can swap specs easier.

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Nah it has a LOT to do with azerite vs. tier as well. I'm getting something useful with azerite gear that I was not getting with tier. And so many times, it felt like my tier sets were pointless (on various alts). I think maybe they were just running out of ideas for decent tier sets idk.

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I think the system is salvageable. IF, as Ion indicated they want, we can get it to a place of:

• The power of all azerite gear is front loaded like 40/30/20/10, with 40% of the impact contained in first trait, 30% in second, etc., so that getting a new piece means having most of it's power immediately.
• AP weekly buffs (BfA version of artifact knowledge) allows anyone who plays much to unlock 2-3 traits on new gear right when they get it.
• 8.1 brings us at least one cool active trait per azerite piece, to replace the one we lost from Legion, and make up for no new talent rows since WoD.

If they did all that, those 4th traits we have to keep re-farming would feel like something only the most dedicated AP farmers were meant to have, giving players who want to go nuts see some benefit, without significantly affecting the rest of us. And getting a new azerite piece in 8.1 could feel very impactful.

One issue with front loading the power of azerite traits is you have this whole island system designed to be mostly focused on AP accumulation and yet generally it takes little effort to unlock the main powers of an item and it feels weird and pointless to bother unlocking the last slot or two. So we have an AP grind that actively makes it feel pointless to AP grind.

[Deleted]

I agree with this. It is not simming because the traits are that useful or powerful it is simming because you can't know by just reading the text on the item if it is worth equiping or not or how to judge between two items with obscure procs. Honestly until they get this stuff locked down better I just go by pure ilevel and then pick whatever traits at a glance look less bad and then move on. I figure everything is so much in flux there is no point doing any reforging or hunting for specific items. Also as a side note I am also leaning more to the generic traits because at least then I can swap specs easier.

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One issue with front loading the power of azerite traits is you have this whole island system designed to be mostly focused on AP accumulation and yet generally it takes little effort to unlock the main powers of an item and it feels weird and pointless to bother unlocking the last slot or two. So we have an AP grind that actively makes it feel pointless to AP grind.

As Preach is showing it up in one of his videos, the whole system is bogus, where devs need to make huge efforts to balance all those traits and by that end up that it finally doesn't matter which one you get or choose, just equip highest ilvl.

[msdos]

"Oh, you as a player think simming your stuff is interesting? Okay, how about we just upscale the traits by small increments every month.. But we'll upscale each one mutually exclusive so you won't actually know which one will scale higher even if you're already using good traits."

[zito]

I mean, even if it does suck, they cant just remove it. The whole expansion was designed around it.

They can just remove it. That's how worthless it is.
Someone on reddit already tested it but if the gear had secondary stats instead his dps would only change slightly. They could literally just swap the powers out for stats and nobody would notice that's how irrelevant it is.

The only thing that would be missed is the like 5 total traits that did something interesting like healing in ghost wolf form but even then that's still boring

[Low Hanging Fruit]

At least garisons will only go down as the second worst system in WoW history now.

[Mafic]

Basically they don't want players to have choice in a MMORPG which is quite sad. Fire resistance gear you could farm...resilience gear for PVP you could farm. Even legendaries with low drop rates in Legion were farmable.

Azerite armor and targeting certain traits? Not possible because the devs are saying "it doesn't matter which traits you have" which is code for the entire system doesn't matter because it is superfluous.

Another anti MMORPG design that they are sticking with sadly.

[ToxicFlame]

They could literally just swap the powers out for stats and nobody would notice that's how irrelevant it is.

The only thing that would be missed is the like 5 total traits that did something interesting like healing in ghost wolf form but even then that's still boring

that'S because 99% of them are straight up stats ... either chance to get a stat or chance to do dmg ...

[Bushbunny]

The thing is Azerite is a mess. People don't like it, but since the entirety of Battle for Azeroth revolves, well let's just say we are done for it. Azerite is just a system Blizzard bases on to make people stay in the game by giving a sense of "Gosh, there are things to grind and if I don't, I'll fall behind". The fact is, BFA is plagued, it won't change and it can't change since the expansion is based on this. At best, the next expansion will not have this kind of feature (since it was already largely criticized at Legion), worst case... whelp.

At this point I'm waiting on classic... and God willing tbc.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I agree with this. It is not simming because the traits are that useful or powerful it is simming because you can't know by just reading the text on the item if it is worth equiping or not or how to judge between two items with obscure procs. Honestly until they get this stuff locked down better I just go by pure ilevel and then pick whatever traits at a glance look less bad and then move on. I figure everything is so much in flux there is no point doing any reforging or hunting for specific items. Also as a side note I am also leaning more to the generic traits because at least then I can swap specs easier.

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One issue with front loading the power of azerite traits is you have this whole island system designed to be mostly focused on AP accumulation and yet generally it takes little effort to unlock the main powers of an item and it feels weird and pointless to bother unlocking the last slot or two. So we have an AP grind that actively makes it feel pointless to AP grind.

I don't think most of us want to grind excessively, and don't think Blizz wants us to feel compelled to. They made it pretty clear that 4-5 islands per week is what they envision, by giving us a bonus for doing that many. Just like they only envision us doing 4 WQs per day. Those extra traits on the azerite gear should be for players who choose to play only one toon and enjoy pushing past diminishing returns. They should get something for the effort, but the rest of us should not feel compelled to do the same. If I can stay current doing 5 islands and 28 WQs per week, and any azerite upgrade I get will be usable right away (i.e., won't be a step back), then that would be a good system I think.

[probert]

At least garisons will only go down as the second worst system in WoW history now.

+1

Although garrisons were fun for a time, until they became a chore and repetitive (especially on every subsequent alt).

[PrairieChicken]

At least garisons will only go down as the second worst system in WoW history now.

Garrisons were not particularly problematic by itself (other than lacking customization), the problem was lack of other stuff to do

[c1v1d]

As Preach is showing it up in one of his videos, the whole system is bogus, where devs need to make huge efforts to balance all those traits and by that end up that it finally doesn't matter which one you get or choose, just equip highest ilvl.

This. There is no point in this 'unique' azerite armor if in the end after all nerfs/buffs are done; they are all going to be very similar. There is no unique feeling for them like legendaries had. The whole system was not thought of in any way whatsoever.

[Deleted]

All I ever wanted to do in wow was pvp. Heres how it worked out:

Classic: You need to raid to get good pvp gear
TBC: We added shit pvp gear you need to raid to get good pvp gear
Wotlk: We added shit pvp gear you need to raid to get good pvp gear
Cata: We added shit pvp gear and you need rating to get shit pvp weapons. You need to raid to get good pvp gear
MoP: We added shit pvp gear with resilience so its somewhat less shit. But if you raid you will get better pvp gear.
WoD: We added shit pvp gear that only works in pvp. To be relevant in the open world you need to raid to get better gear.
Legion: We finally killed pvp entirely. Raid or do M+ to get better pvp gear.
BFA: We decided to bring pvp back but only somewhat. You still need to raid or do M+ to get better pvp gear.

So come again please, how did "my content" come to your stuff.

resilience was introduced with TBC on the pvp gear. I don't remember pvp players farming raid to get good pvp gear during TBC.

[Deleted]

Garrisons were not particularly problematic by itself (other than lacking customization), the problem was lack of other stuff to do

The thing is everything currently looks like a chore to do in the game. Reps are, Azerite is, expeditions are. Making everything account wide would be a solution. Sure, it's a bit rad, but currently on my heal druid I am having a gap of 3 Azerite levels before I unlock my next trait, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not willing to do it because grinding Azerite is just painful and the reward it gives is close to ridiculous. If it was account wide, I'd probably be able to play another character that would have a less wide gap between traits and find a form of "enjoyment" in going further. Currently, I just don't imagine grinding 3 levels to continue, it's as ridiculous as the forge system was back in Legion.

Account wide progression would solve a lot of problems, sure, you'll have all your reps on all your characters, but again, what is the deal ? What does it really change in the game ? Strictly nothing at all, it would just make people less frustrated because if they want to play another character, it's choresland over and over again.

[ashblond]

Dear Blizzard devs,

Do you know what is a better system than Azerite Gear? GLYPHS! which is a system created many years ago.

The glyphs do exactly the same thing as azerite traits: 3 prime, 3 major and 3 minor glyhs have identical function as the 3 rings of 3 azerite gear.

And advantage of glyhs over azerite traits:

- Glyphs don't need AP to unlock
- Glyphs are bound to character, not on gear (you don't need to farm specific piece to have a glyph)
- Glyphs don't have reforge cost
- Glyphs don't replace secondary stats on your head, shoulder, chest armor, and don't affect class sets
- Glyphs can't stack and are much easier to balance

Why the devs today can only come out an idea worse than many years ago?

[burzian]

Lore is such a clown sometimes. His pushback on the guy for having two points that are "at odds" is dumb at best, disingenuous at worst. Like simming everything means it has to be interesting? Traits can be complex but boring in practice, and BfA has given us a ton of great examples of that.

[Bloodtanker]

But that's on top of the financial investment, not in place of it.

Not to mention that they simply don't have enough time to concoct a replacement. BfA has been in development before Legion even released, a new system wouldn't be ready until 9.0 at earliest anyway.

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They're going to raise the iLvl of WQ and Dungeon drops over the expansion. Even the world's most unlucky player will eventually get something over 340.

Or they could stop with new shit like Azerite/Artifacts etc? Go back to tier sets and legendary quest chain or better yet class specific ones like in wrath/Cata/Mist and WoD. ICC had one for plate, Ulduar had one for healers, Firelands had one for casters, Dragon soul for Rogues you get my drift. New shit like this brings so many problems and its now evident that if a new system goes bad you have to deal with it and be stuck with it till the next pac.

[alturic]

Not going through 6 pages to see if these things have been said but:

Lore:

Regarding targeting specific traits: I think we've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, we believe that's merely a symptom of the imbalance between traits. Ideally, the gap between them isn't so large that you feel it would be hugely beneficial to grind out the perfect set.

So you want all traits to be... equal (not wanting traits to be unbalanced)? What's the point of the trait? Just have those 3 pieces has more str/int/agi/haste whatever. Or make each piece have a specific proc. Hey look, less dev time needed to make 3 items.

I think we agree that re-farming traits doesn't feel great. I don't have a solve for that issue to share today, and to be completely transparent it may be something we simply have to accept as a downside to the system for other reasons. But we agree it can be a bit of a downer.

WoW (no pun intended), the dev team can't come to the conclusion that the Diablo system of loot is biting them in the ass, now compounded by the fact they can't simply realize that (like tier gear) certain boses can drop certain pieces of armor. End boss = always chest, first boss = always shoulders. There's MANY easy solutions to the problem.

Also, to Ion's comment about new traits being introduced: he was referring to new traits on new gear added in new content, with higher item level, that replaces your old gear entirely. We're not planning to add in new traits to existing items, so don't worry about holding onto old Azerite pieces just in case their traits change.

Cringe. More "fun traits" that we don't know how to balance.

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Dear Blizzard devs,

Do you know what is a better system than Azerite Gear? GLYPHS! which is a system created many years ago.

The glyphs do exactly the same thing as azerite traits: 3 prime, 3 major and 3 minor glyhs have identical function as the 3 rings of 3 azerite gear.

And advantage of glyhs over azerite traits:

- Glyphs don't need AP to unlock
- Glyphs are bound to character, not on gear (you don't need to farm specific piece to have a glyph)
- Glyphs don't have reforge cost
- Glyphs don't replace secondary stats on your head, shoulder, chest armor, and don't affect class sets
- Glyphs can't stack and are much easier to balance

Why the devs today can only come out an idea worse than many years ago?

I never thought about it that way, but shit that even makes at least one profession useful.

It's also hilariously accurate, but we can't consider a system that was implmeneted (3?) expansions ago as a "feature" of a new expansion. People won't buy that.