Why Thrall was the greatest Warchief

[Wildberry]

Fuck, I love your responses. But you should change face of your orc char, it doesn't look like Garrosh. The first one I think is the most similar.

I bounce back and forth between 1 and 4. 1 is closer to his in-game model. 4 seems closer to the cinematic variants. Both are a little lacking, unfortunately, though.

Also lol @ Ner'zhul being tied with Vol'jin right now.

[OIS]

(...)let's not forget that Thrall settled his people in a nearly inhospitable desert, in part, as penance for the sins of their parents and was willing, in almost every instance, to pursue appeasement with the Alliance, even when it meant his people got the short end of the stick.

Isn't it kind of why Thrall put Garrosh in charge? His point of view was fundamentally different than that of the Horde(orcs at least) and he thought his people needed less of him and more of Garrosh. That should count for something.

I wish they sold us the decision of founding Orgrimmar on Durotan as something like Thrall deliberately wanting to settle on a harsh climate to keep orcs strong or something like that. Malkorok had this opinion in Tides of War. That atonement for the past sins thing is just... lame. It first came up in one of Christie Golden's books, isn't it?

[Wildberry]

Isn't it kind of why Thrall put Garrosh in charge? His point of view was fundamentally different than that of the Horde(orcs at least) and he thought his people needed less of him and more of Garrosh. That should count for something.

Yep, that's why Thrall defending Garrosh when Vol'jin threw his first tantrum.

I wish they sold us the decision of founding Orgrimmar on Durotan as something like Thrall deliberately wanting to settle on a harsh climate to keep orcs strong or something like that. Malkorok had this opinion in Tides of War. That atonement for the past sins thing is just... lame. It first came up in one of Christie Golden's books, isn't it?

Sarah Pine, the person who wrote Garrosh's short story.

[Syegfryed]

why are we counting iron horde?

normal horde of course Garrosh, if thrall in wow look more like his war3 self he could be, but Garry was a legend, his crazyines, jokes and other "bad things" were what made him funny, different and cool

[Fetus Rex]

I bounce back and forth between 1 and 4. 1 is closer to his in-game model. 4 seems closer to the cinematic variants. Both are a little lacking, unfortunately, though.

Also lol @ Ner'zhul being tied with Vol'jin right now.

I envy your tusks.

Some sort of consolation.

[OIS]

Sarah Pine, the person who wrote Garrosh's short story.

Right, I had forgotten about that, I was thinking about The Shattering. I suppose I'm making Golden too much of a scapegoat at this point

[Wildberry]

I envy your tusks.

Some sort of consolation.

Thanks! (Farming them was an absolute nightmare though)

Right, I had forgotten about that, I was thinking about The Shattering. I suppose I'm making Golden too much of a scapegoat at this point

Golden deserves the hate she gets, in my opinion. But that one bit she wasn't responsible for.

Truthfully though, I liked the Pines story overall. It's a pity she wasn't kept around. Most characters, save Thrall, had decent characterization in "Heart of War."

[Jastall]

This love for Doomhammer puzzles me. The guy found a Horde that was strong and with much land already, and decided to stretch his forces on a costly campaign north on top of trusting Gul'dan in exchange for Death Knights. When Gul'dan betrayed him, he foolishly sent tons of his forces to try and kill him, resulting in the mother of all routes as the Horde was pushed from the outskirts of Lordaeron itself to Blackrock Mountain where it was soundly trashed and then back to the Dark Portal. That's not just a lapse of judgment, but a really major failure.

And Garrosh, lulz. Turns a temporary resource problem into a world war and a disagreement with a few leaders into a full blown rebellion because he can't keep his head cool, and gameplay demanding the Horde survive the Siege of Orgrimmar was literally the only reason the faction wasn't dismantled then and there due to his awful leadership. In what world is that the best candidate for the post.

[Wildberry]

This love for Doomhammer puzzles me. The guy found a Horde that was strong and with much land already, and decided to stretch his forces on a costly campaign north

It's stated in "Tides of Darkness" that Stormwind's lands weren't enough to sustain the entirety of the Orcish population. Additionally it's also made clear that the Humans were going to retaliate regardless.

trusting Gul'dan in exchange for Death Knights.

Doomhammer never trusted Gul'dan. He needed the Death Knights because the Horde, at that time, had no way to counter Alliance priests and mages.

When Gul'dan betrayed him, he foolishly sent tons of his forces to try and kill him, resulting in the mother of all routes as the Horde was pushed from the outskirts of Lordaeron itself to

The Siege of Lordaeron would have failed regardless, Gul'dan's reinforcements were vital to keeping it going if Lothar showed up. At that point, why not bring Gul'dan to justice.

And Garrosh, lulz. Turns a temporary resource problem into a world war

Blatantly false. The Orcs' resource problem wasn't "temporary" and caused by the Cataclysm. They had barely been getting by, while being fully dependent on a hostile power for trade. Trade was severed through no fault of their own, and one set of diplomatic negotiations wasn't enough to reestablish it. The Cataclysm just made the problem worse.

a disagreement with a few leaders into a full blown rebellion because he can't keep his head cool,

Weird how he's expected to "keep his head cool" after:
-being threatened with death
-having his subordinates outright declare they have no loyalty to him
etc.

Really weird how he's expected to just "deal" with that, but his subordinates aren't expected to defer to the Warchief's authority as the Blood Oath of the Horde demands.

[Jastall]

It's stated in "Tides of Darkness" that Stormwind's lands weren't enough to sustain the entirety of the Orcish population. Additionally it's also made clear that the Humans were going to retaliate regardless.


Doomhammer never trusted Gul'dan. He needed the Death Knights because the Horde, at that time, had no way to counter Alliance priests and mages.


The Siege of Lordaeron would have failed regardless, Gul'dan's reinforcements were vital to keeping it going if Lothar showed up. At that point, why not bring Gul'dan to justice.


Blatantly false. The Orcs' resource problem wasn't "temporary" and caused by the Cataclysm. They had barely been getting by, while being fully dependent on a hostile power for trade. Trade was severed through no fault of their own, and one set of diplomatic negotiations wasn't enough to reestablish it. The Cataclysm just made the problem worse.


Weird how he's expected to "keep his head cool" after:
-being threatened with death
-having his subordinates outright declare they have no loyalty to him
etc.

Really weird how he's expected to just "deal" with that, but his subordinates aren't expected to defer to the Warchief's authority as the Blood Oath of the Horde demands.

Handing Gul'dan control of forces significant enough to hinder the war effort if he leaves is either trusting him or thinking Orgrim has an ascent over the warlock that he does not have. And sending tons of Blackrock orcs on his tail is a pointless exercise in futile revenge, their presence might have slowed the Horde retreat or tipped the scales at Blackrock Mountain had they not suffered casualties.

The end point is, Thrall's warlock problem was a few Burning Blade covens springing up and getting rekt after they attack one caravan or something. Doomhammer's lost him his war, kicked the Orcs back to the Dark Portal, and/or forced them in human servitude. That's not greatness by any means if you ask me.

The Orcs barely being able to get by makes no sense whatsoever, too. They have an entire coast's worth of uncontested waters, less advanced civilizations have prospered by fishing, and that's not counting other food sources like farms or Barrens game, as well as the possibility of internal trade within the Horde which is strangely never brought up. The Forsaken control territory teeming with trees. Golbins are the best miners this side of Dwarves. Eversong Woods and Mulgore are mostly unspoiled wilderness that must supply plenty of food. But the Orcs trade with the Night Elves and depend on them for food and lumber instead? What is this madness.

I know it's canon, but it's a part of canon that only exists because everyone involved is an idiot. Durotar is perfectly placed for trade and fishing, and these two activities are by themselves enough to feed the Orcs who aren't that numerous, and that's before the Cataclysm opens the road to Azshara, doubling the aforementioned coastline and opening up vast forests ripe for the taking.

[Deleted]

The lack of ressources for the Orcs is garbage story telling, but Blizzard presents it as such and build their story upon it. Thus, we can't simply ignore it.

Quel'thalas could grow food all year long. Do you realise what that means, if you have Spring and Summer all year long? They have no seasons because of their magic. Normally, they should be able to support the whole Horde with food, if they wanted too. The Hordes fleet would also be big enough to transport that stuff etc. Portals are available too, especially for catastrophes and shortages.

The point about Durotars coast and fishing is true as well.

But what do you do, when the Blizzard writers are incompetent. If Blizzards WoW story connects only with a little bit of logic, it bursts into a million tiny pieces in an instant. And it shows how well thought out the World of Warcraft fantasy universe is. At this point, it is a big fat mess without any logic. Way bigger compared to Warcraft 3 times, when at least the RPG/Corebooks were Lore, which made more sense compared to the current mess.

I didn't understand why Metzen and other people at Blizzard did not have the time or urge to create new, properly thought out Core/RPG Books as a base for their world, story and game to build on upon. Something well thought out, which writers and player could use to orientate themselves, if they were interested in the Lore of the game or had to create story. Especially if they truly loved their own fantasy world they created, like they always claim, when asked. Which they certainly don't. Otherwise they would have found the time in 13 years to do something like this.

Oh, and Thrall thinks more like a human, than an Orc. He himself never truly understood his own people, their mindset and their culture. Thus, he was never a really good choice as their leader.

[muto]

Thrall and Vol'jin

[rogueMatthias]

Where even is Thrall in all of this anyway?

Can't believe he'd be too happy about the new Horde direction.

[Techno-Druid]

Thrall basically built the modern Horde.

- - - Updated - - -

The lack of ressources for the Orcs is garbage story telling, but Blizzard presents it as such and build their story upon it. Thus, we can't simply ignore it.

Quel'thalas could grow food all year long. Do you realise what that means, if you have Spring and Summer all year long? They have no seasons because of their magic. Normally, they should be able to support the whole Horde with food, if they wanted too. The Hordes fleet would also be big enough to transport that stuff etc. Portals are available too, especially for catastrophes and shortages.

The point about Durotars coast and fishing is true as well.

But what do you do, when the Blizzard writers are incompetent. If Blizzards WoW story connects only with a little bit of logic, it bursts into a million tiny pieces in an instant. And it shows how well thought out the World of Warcraft fantasy universe is. At this point, it is a big fat mess without any logic. Way bigger compared to Warcraft 3 times, when at least the RPG/Corebooks were Lore, which made more sense compared to the current mess.

I didn't understand why Metzen and other people at Blizzard did not have the time or urge to create new, properly thought out Core/RPG Books as a base for their world, story and game to build on upon. Something well thought out, which writers and player could use to orientate themselves, if they were interested in the Lore of the game or had to create story. Especially if they truly loved their own fantasy world they created, like they always claim, when asked. Which they certainly don't. Otherwise they would have found the time in 13 years to do something like this.

Oh, and Thrall thinks more like a human, than an Orc. He himself never truly understood his own people, their mindset and their culture. Thus, he was never a really good choice as their leader.

Honestly the RPG Guides are probably some of the best lore Warcraft has had and it's a shame that it's non-canon because it basically goes through a shit ton of information.

[Techno-Druid]

Isn't it kind of why Thrall put Garrosh in charge? His point of view was fundamentally different than that of the Horde(orcs at least) and he thought his people needed less of him and more of Garrosh. That should count for something.

I wish they sold us the decision of founding Orgrimmar on Durotan as something like Thrall deliberately wanting to settle on a harsh climate to keep orcs strong or something like that. Malkorok had this opinion in Tides of War. That atonement for the past sins thing is just... lame. It first came up in one of Christie Golden's books, isn't it?

Another reason Thrall settled in Durotar was because the land reminded him of the stories of Draenor (probably Gorgrond) that he heard and believed it to be a rugged place for a rugged people. Honestly though, I would have rather had Thrall send out each clan to find territory on Kalimdor while using Durotar as just a base/common ground for each clan.

[Wildberry]

To chime in on the results real quick, it's wonderful to see that the best Warchief is still leading in the polls. Good to know the Sylvanas vote isn't splitting the anti-Thrall vote anymore.

And, can one of the Vol'jin voters please explain why they'd pick him over Thrall? Vol'jin is to Thrall what BfA is to Legion. Bad : Mediocre, and all.

[Super Dickmann]

My boy Doomhammer is more popular than both Sylvanas and Vol'jin. Well done, fellow people of patrician taste.

[vipers]

she is the one that comes the closest to securing whole Kalimdor for the Horde, which is something it should have had a long time ago

major points for her

Kalimdor is now and on future secure to the horde ?

[Syegfryed]

To chime in on the results real quick, it's wonderful to see that the best Warchief is still leading in the polls. Good to know the Sylvanas vote isn't splitting the anti-Thrall vote anymore.

And, can one of the Vol'jin voters please explain why they'd pick him over Thrall? Vol'jin is to Thrall what BfA is to Legion. Bad : Mediocre, and all.

funny how some time ago, this same topic was made and she was like the second one in votes, times change

[Wildberry]

My boy Doomhammer is more popular than both Sylvanas and Vol'jin. Well done, fellow people of patrician taste.

For what it's worth, Doomhammer's a close second, but I can't vote against a top lad like Garrosh.

funny how some time ago, this same topic was made and she was like the second one in votes, times change

Eh, I chalked that one up to an anomaly. We were just coming off from the high of torching Teldrassil, and all. Plus, Garrosh had far better showings in prior polls. Now that we're back down to reality, the results have gone back to normal.