[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Eleccybubb]

Hopefully they announce the new expansion and add another healer. Maybe Dancer. If I have to twerk to heal though, I'll be concerned.

They will. They will only give a hint at the first job though.

Word of advice. Look at the shirt Yoshida is usually wearing. Last time he wore a Scarlet Witch one which was Red Mage and a Spiderman one for Samurai. (Sam Raimi sounds a lot like it I dunno)

Plus fanfest streams are free this year so YAY! Also the goodies are going on Mogstation. It's FF7 themed minions and Cloud's bike from Advent Children.

Only downside is streams won't get The Primals concert.

[StrawberryZebra]

Ever remembered raiding Sunwell w/o a Shaman?
Well, neither do I.
While not necessarily this extreme, that is the direction in which you are heading.

I also don't remember raiding Sunwell without Holy Paladins, Disc and Holy Priest and Resto Druids either. Because those healers all brought unique strengths to the table.

Mages ended up getting benched for Sunwell, but that was mostly due to the design direction they'd taken at the time where talents that reduced spell cast time also reduced the benefit the spell got from Spell Power. It left them in a place where their damage just didn't scale well enough to be competative. Thankfully Blizard seem to have learned from that mistake and haven't repeated it.

[Dragon Claws]

They will. They will only give a hint at the first job though.

I just want another healer, preferably DNC or maybe a new job altogether.

[Granyala]

Hopefully they announce the new expansion and add another healer. Maybe Dancer. If I have to twerk to heal though, I'll be concerned.

At this juncture, I do not see any point to new classes. The ones we have already feel horribly homogenized, esp the healers.
Considering that there are only 8man raids, how many more classes do they want to shove into this game?

- - - Updated - - -

I also don't remember raiding Sunwell without Holy Paladins, Disc and Holy Priest and Resto Druids either. Because those healers all brought unique strengths to the table.

SW was a 25man raid though, not an 8man raid. There were enough spots for the 4 healing classes we had back then.
In FF We are already at the point where people must choose 2/3 healers and as you can see, some peeps are crying for more.

If SE is dumb enough to add more healers, they will either remain carbon copys of each other or they will put further pressure on stuff like balance, niches and and support beyond healing.

If you put people in a position in which they are forced to make a choice, they are compelled to optimize further.

[Veluren]

It this juncture, I do not see any point to new classes. The ones we have already feel horribly homogenized, esp the healers.
Considering that there are only 8man raids, how many more classes do they want to shove into this game?

- - - Updated - - -



SW was a 25man raid though, not an 8man raid. There were enough spots for the 4 healing classes we had back then.
In FF We are already at the point where people must choose 2/3 healers and as you can see, some peeps are crying for more.

If SE is dumb enough to add more healers, they will either remain carbon copys of each other or they will put further pressure on stuff like balance, niches and and support beyond healing.

If you put people in a position in which they are forced to make a choice, they are compelled to optimize further.

FF11 ended with... what, 22 jobs before they stopped making frequent content for it?

XI also has the case of being an entirely different game from a different time, and mechanically, only four or five of those jobs were powerful and the rest were just cross-class fodder, but I digress.

I don't really feel much homogenization honestly, all of my bars feel different to play, and all of my setups don't feel like I'm doing X thing except with an axe instead of a sword.

Some classes need to have their niche defined sure, like DRK has been dead as the "anti-magic" tank since PLD was able to block magic, but that needed to happen, and DRK is confirmed getting a rework.

Honestly though, I'd be fine with this being the last round of jobs unless they wanted to bring in just one fan favorite every expansion, Blue Mage and Dancers have been something people have wanted since 2.0, even if they have to find a strange niche (Blue Mage melee support? According to a leaker who's been consistently right about nearly everything since before 4.3 came out). Dancer will almost definitely be a healer though, unless Square wants to take the game the way of Rift and make a designated support role and throw a bunch of buffer/debuffer jobs into it.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, if Summoner gets a rework, can we just have them be Stand-users beating the hell out of people with quick-summoned full primals instead of egi?

[Granyala]

I don't really feel much homogenization honestly, all of my bars feel different to play, and all of my setups don't feel like I'm doing X thing except with an axe instead of a sword.

Go play a tank.
It's literally the same 1-2-3 combo crap for every tank.
Aggro combo vs DPS combo (you spam the latter 99% of the time), tank stance vs DPS stance (you avoid tank stance as much as possible).
Only the buttons are of a different color.

SCH is nicely different from WHM, I agree. AST is just a carbon copy of WHM with cards attached (Diurnal) or with shields instead of HoTs (Nocturnal).

[Eleccybubb]

Finally left the Cerberus novice network today. Just went full on cesspit/drama mode. Gonna stick with the mentor crown though.

Without naming and shaming some guy said "I dindu nuffin wrong" then it erupted into an argument between him and some other guy about it being racist..... I mean the guy calling it racist was flat out wrong but neither of them would shut the hell up or take it to private tells.

And during that argument/flame war was fucking impossible to help 1 or 2 people who were asking for help.

I thought Louisoix had a bad NN in the past but Cerberus is just shitposting and drama for the most part.

[Remilia]

Speaking of SCH, let me have two fairies out at once please. If only so I can be a broken lazy healer with two mobile healing turrets.

[lawow74]

SCH at low levels is hilarious. I once stood there and danced while the fairy kept the tank alive in I think Tam-Tara.

[Katchii]

Speaking on SMN, what I would like to see would be mechanically more similar to BRD. Rather than summon different pets specifically, have it be more channeling the spirit of a given aspect and what you do changes based on that, i.e. rotating stances with different elemental powers whose effects change based on what you want to do and what you've done mechanically. For example, going to a Leviathan aspect and dousing an enemy, then to a Ramuh aspect and electrocuting the fuck outta them. Or perhaps it's two summons at once with opposing elements whose abilities sync together. Debuff with one and slam them with the other, and rotate back.

I hadn't ever played the newly designed bard until today. I must say I regret not playing it sooner. If they could take something like this and put it on Summoner with more direct damage spells I'd be all for it.

I don't mind the current Summoner play style, honestly, but it doesn't feel like a Summoner at all.

[Grable]

Finally left the Cerberus novice network today. Just went full on cesspit/drama mode. Gonna stick with the mentor crown though.

I did the same (I'm also on Cerberus EU), I was in novice network due to being a returner but that chat is just pure 100% random chatter. Can't say I noticed much drama but the channel feels as if I joined a random discord that has a closed group of veteran friends that only talk with eachother. I'd even go as far as to say that novices are afraid to even pose a question because of this. Don't think I saw a single novice using it in ~2 weeks that I've been reading it.

[StrawberryZebra]

SW was a 25man raid though, not an 8man raid. There were enough spots for the 4 healing classes we had back then.
In FF We are already at the point where people must choose 2/3 healers and as you can see, some peeps are crying for more.

As you say, we're already in the situation where at least 1 of those healers needs to be benched for 8 man content. Sadly, because of how the AST is designed, other healers need to bring extra tools to the table beyond just healing to be competative. If Squenix add more, then those healers without buffs or extra utility are going to be benched for AST every single time.

Which is really the issue, the AST is too strong in groups. You said it yourself, AST is a carbon copy of WHM with cards attached. Rather than nerf what makes AST unique, maybe give other healers their own unique tools to compete.

[Wrecktangle]

In my experience there's less drama overall in FFXIV...but when there is drama it tends to be the sort where those responsible are insanely stubborn.

Purely anecdotal, but in WoW the drama I rarely saw was consistent and logical. Guild people dating, bf/gf gets sat, other rages, ninja loot (back in day), loot council favorites, arguing in guild chat over who's right/wrong, etc. etc. Really boring dry stuff.

In FF14, you gets some fucking WEIRD drama. Just people on this game are absolutely nuts some times. Like, should be institutionalized nuts and they're by far the softest community I've ever played in. I used to roast my buddy's little brother because he played club penguin, but man, that place seems like seasoned criminals compared to FF14. It's just crazy to me.

I read it. That person acts like a 12 year old trying to be mature and coming up with "mature" arguments and failing miserably. Glad I'll never have the honor of grouping with them.

Told you it was worth it.

While I can understand the frustration, the OP of said thread has a point: insults are a no-go.

But was that REALLY an insult? I mean if someone said that to you, would you lose an iota of sleep over it?

Honestly I thought it was hilarious. If someone said that to me I'd have laughed my ass off, but I'm also a grown ass adult and not a petulant child who takes offense if a beetle lands on my shoe.

As you say, we're already in the situation where at least 1 of those healers needs to be benched for 8 man content. Sadly, because of how the AST is designed, other healers need to bring extra tools to the table beyond just healing to be competative. If Squenix add more, then those healers without buffs or extra utility are going to be benched for AST every single time.

Which is really the issue, the AST is too strong in groups. You said it yourself, AST is a carbon copy of WHM with cards attached. Rather than nerf what makes AST unique, maybe give other healers their own unique tools to compete.

Re: homogenization - I'm actually ok with homogenization if you can find a way to make it feel different. I'll give an example from my proposed rework.

All tanks obviously need a few of the same tools:

Enmity generation
DPS
Mitigation
Utility

However, you can vary these tools, not necessarily by raw effectiveness, but by how easy to access or expensive they are as well.

Something like WAR might have the strongest burst AOE DPS (i.e. very powerful 1 button DPS oGCD ability), but it doesn't generate a lot of threat. In order to make sure they hold threat against a BLM who was saving a Triple Flare to burst down adds, he might have to spend some Beast Gauge on an AOE threat move first. A PLD can use his Rage of Halone (from my rework) where it does a line AOE that if they remain in it generates significant threat, but not high DPS. He can then use his Oath to burn on AOE DPS abilities (if he had them), etc.

In the end both have identical tools, but the order of operations changes and the resource used change (GCD vs. oGCD, Oath/Beast vs. None, etc.).

Mitigation you can put more passive sustained on the PLD (due to blocks), but give them weaker activated cooldowns, or tie their effectiveness into managing blocks (so Sheltron usage). a DRK might have a a very short 'sustained' shield a la TBN to maintain.

You can make debuffs more prevalent and give PLD the ability to cleanse a debuff or resurrect. WAR can have a ton of mobility and maybe have the ability to knockback enemies, DRKs can reposition enemies etc.

I think it can work.

[Deleted]

Do you guys remember that post I made a while back about the PLD who did nothing but shield lob?

Well he's back with a new post, and unfortunately he never took me on my offer to teach him how to PLD. It's worth a solid read if you have some popcorn handy.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...is-with-people



Oh I'm an idiot. I must have mixed this post up with another. I thought it said you were like 113 or 114 (so BFA). Disregard!



I always thought the idea of a BLM being a burst caster with the ability to store instant casts as a mechanic to offset bad swings would be cool. You'd always want to have 1-2 on hand, but never want to be capped kinda thing. I don't think BLM needs the AF swing, Enochian Timer, Umbral Hearts, and Foul to be a compelling/fun job. It is a little overbearing IMO. I'm not entirely sure how I'd rework it tbh as I don't have a ton of experience on it.

Regarding SMN I really don't like the spellset. It just doesn't feel like what a SMN to me would cast. I don't have enough experience to give any concrete rework thoughts on it though.

He doesnt need teaching though he has over 250 comms

[Katchii]

As you say, we're already in the situation where at least 1 of those healers needs to be benched for 8 man content. Sadly, because of how the AST is designed, other healers need to bring extra tools to the table beyond just healing to be competative. If Squenix add more, then those healers without buffs or extra utility are going to be benched for AST every single time.

Which is really the issue, the AST is too strong in groups. You said it yourself, AST is a carbon copy of WHM with cards attached. Rather than nerf what makes AST unique, maybe give other healers their own unique tools to compete.

I'd agree with this, but I don't really subscribe to the whole paradigm where "competitive" is everything. To me "viable" has more meaning. As @Granyala said, there will always be min/maxers who sim out and only accept the absolute highest output classes for content, and I'll agree that with FFXIV 8 man cap that will leave out many of the current classes based on whatever the meta currently is, but there's more to the game than the highest level content and more people than the min/max elitists who don't accept anything other than the meta.

I agree with @Wrecktangle in regards to homogenization, to a degree. Being able to do the same job is pretty important in games like this, to assuage the issue you're referring to, but that doesn't mean it has to be or feel the same when it comes to game play. Giving the classes within the same role the same basic tool kit but altering how or when the tools are activated, and the overall flow of the class would go a long way in giving the classes that feeling of individuality.. But I'm under no delusion that it will ever be perfect and that there will ever be 100% parity between all classes within the same role, as the class "flavor" kind of dictates that it needs to BE a little different to FEEL different. So there will always be a "meta" but that doesn't mean they can't add more flavor to the game just because the meta exists. It's always changing, sometimes just based what encounter you're doing, so having more options and increasing the "fun" factor is a good thing.

[StrawberryZebra]

You can make debuffs more prevalent and give PLD the ability to cleanse a debuff or resurrect. WAR can have a ton of mobility and maybe have the ability to knockback enemies, DRKs can reposition enemies etc.

I think it can work.

This is the kind of thing I'd go for.

Giving tanks a similar basic toolkit so they can perform the role, then add some incomparable skills unique to them. You can't compare having a cleanse to a knockback, those are two completely separate tools each with their own applications. And that's great - It gives tanks clear identities, while also ensuring they're still capable tanks in their own rights.

DOTA does this kind of thing really well. Where heroes like Vengeful Spirit, Crystal Maiden and Witch Doctor all fill the same spot on their team, a supporting role where they assist their teammates in getting kills, keeping them out of harms way and providing extra utility through their items. They all bring skills unique to them that simply can't be compared to the rest of the cast.

That's where I'd like FF14 to head with regards to their tanks and healers. They're all completely capable of performing their roles, but they all have unique tools and flavour that sets them apart.

I'd agree with this, but I don't really subscribe to the whole paradigm where "competitive" is everything. To me "viable" has more meaning. As @Granyala said, there will always be min/maxers who sim out and only accept the absolute highest output classes for content, and I'll agree that with FFXIV 8 man cap that will leave out many of the current classes based on whatever the meta currently is, but there's more to the game than the highest level content and more people than the min/max elitists who don't accept anything other than the meta.

Even outside of Min/Maxing people are usually quick to catch on if one Job is vastly more powerful than another. Right now, AST can do everything a WHM can and more. The AST being a capable healer isn't the problem, it's the "and more" it brings that pushes it over the top.

The core of this isn't simply nerf AST or buff WHM and SCH, no. It's "Let's give everyone some more cool stuff!" If you want an AST for cards, SCH for Chain Strat, Fey Wind and a WHM for whatever cool stuff they bring is then you've got a choice to make when forming your group. Right now, WHM has lots of personal cooldowns and massive healing potential, but no cool stuff for the rest of their group. Simply being the mathematical best at healing isn't a strong enough niche for FF14, where group DPS tends to matter oh so much more.

[Granyala]

Finally left the Cerberus novice network today.

Heh, I can imagine. I have public chats disabled since TBC.
Stupid spammers.

[lawow74]

Generally the first thing I do in any Online game is turn off public chat channels. The GIFT should really just be made a law by this point.

[Katchii]

Even outside of Min/Maxing people are usually quick to catch on if one Job is vastly more powerful than another. Right now, AST can do everything a WHM can and more. The AST being a capable healer isn't the problem, it's the "and more" it brings that pushes it over the top.

The core of this isn't simply nerf AST or buff WHM and SCH, no. It's "Let's give everyone some more cool stuff!" If you want an AST for cards, SCH for Chain Strat, Fey Wind and a WHM for whatever cool stuff they bring is then you've got a choice to make when forming your group. Right now, WHM has lots of personal cooldowns and massive healing potential, but no cool stuff for the rest of their group. Simply being the mathematical best at healing isn't a strong enough niche for FF14, where group DPS tends to matter oh so much more.

As someone who doesn't even pay attention to the min/max meta stuff I'm asking out of ignorance; are the buffs an AST brings THAT powerful? I see WHM and SCH all over the place in the duty finder dungeons I do and in the few party finder groups I join for the the Extreme fights, I don't have any interest in Savage content so don't know what the group make up is for that stuff. I also don't notice much difference in smoothness or clear speed of dungeon groups with any of the three healers. The variability I do see is almost entirely based on the skill and gearing of the group as a whole, with the tank pacing being the most impactful variable for sure.

I just don't see the huge variance in output of a group with an AST vs a group with a WHM or SCH. Sure, an AST can add some DPS to the group, but a well played WHM adds great utility and is flat out just better at healing with it's kit, not to mention can help melt groups of adds with Holy. I don't know SCH well enough to comment on what exactly it's strengths and weaknesses are but they're good enough to clear all the content I do at least (as I said, I don't do Savage so don't know how they're represented there) without any noticeable difference in speed or smoothness that can be solely attributed to the fact we got a SCH rather than an AST.

Classes having strengths and weaknesses are part of what give them character, so long as they're able to do the core parts of the job. AST having a little more utility is fine with me due to them having more to deal with to keep that utility going in a dungeon, paying enough attention to the fight all while pulling cards and managing them on cooldown, applying them appropriately, swapping, etc... it IS more than the WHM needs to deal with. Not sure how it rates up there with SCH though as I said, no experience there to draw from.

I will wholeheartedly agree that the classes could use more "cool stuff" to use, and not just more buttons to press that do more of what they already do, I mean actual meaningful abilities that affect HOW the class is played.

[Wrecktangle]

As someone who doesn't even pay attention to the min/max meta stuff I'm asking out of ignorance; are the buffs an AST brings THAT powerful? I see WHM and SCH all over the place in the duty finder dungeons I do and in the few party finder groups I join for the the Extreme fights, I don't have any interest in Savage content so don't know what the group make up is for that stuff. I also don't notice much difference in smoothness or clear speed of dungeon groups with any of the three healers. The variability I do see is almost entirely based on the skill and gearing of the group as a whole, with the tank pacing being the most impactful variable for sure.

I just don't see the huge variance in output of a group with an AST vs a group with a WHM or SCH. Sure, an AST can add some DPS to the group, but a well played WHM adds great utility and is flat out just better at healing with it's kit, not to mention can help melt groups of adds with Holy. I don't know SCH well enough to comment on what exactly it's strengths and weaknesses are but they're good enough to clear all the content I do at least (as I said, I don't do Savage so don't know how they're represented there) without any noticeable difference in speed or smoothness that can be solely attributed to the fact we got a SCH rather than an AST.

Classes having strengths and weaknesses are part of what give them character, so long as they're able to do the core parts of the job. AST having a little more utility is fine with me due to them having more to deal with to keep that utility going in a dungeon, paying enough attention to the fight all while pulling cards and managing them on cooldown, applying them appropriately, swapping, etc... it IS more than the WHM needs to deal with. Not sure how it rates up there with SCH though as I said, no experience there to draw from.

I will wholeheartedly agree that the classes could use more "cool stuff" to use, and not just more buttons to press that do more of what they already do, I mean actual meaningful abilities that affect HOW the class is played.

I picked up a consistent 220 dps having our WHM swap to AST. Roughly a 4.5% DPS increase for me. We picked up a 1250 rDPS as a team, a little over 3% overall.

Personally speaking (from a raiding standpoint) AST is king here. However, you noted dungeons above, WHM having Holy is more powerful than any card an AST can pull.