[Spoiler] The Alliance does X in Zuldazar and Baine's immidiate reaction is:

[Super Dickmann]

The two forces negotiated a peace and worked together against the Legion. Then, after the Legion was defeated, they organized a joint event to united Forsaken citizens with their living relatives.

They were at peace until the Horde burned Teldrassil.



It wasn't a "one day ceasefire" and even if it was, you don't end a joint agreed ceasefires with a surprise attack and genocide...Again, they worked together in Legion and then continued to organize joint events throughout the book.

It's impressive to be wrong about every single point made. The Horde and Alliance were at peace before and during the Broken Shore, discounting Ashran as a skirmish between nobodies. After the Broken Shore and the Alliance intelligence, run by a dreadlord at the time who was trying to sow conflict between the factions, the first attack to take place is by Alliance initiative when Genn and Rogers use an airship to bomb the Forsaken fleet while they're heading to Stormheim to assassinate the Horde's head of state. Afterwards, the Alliance and the Horde have no involvement in the plot until Silithus, there's no implication at all that peace settled.

In fact, Anduin explicitly states that the Gathering is a) not a peace offer or a peace summit and b) that this isn't a ceasefire. You can't have a ceasefire if there's no war. The Alliance and Horde are in a defacto cold war since the Broken Shore, which turns into a hot one with the War of Thorns. There are no joint events in the book to speak of, short of both Anduin and Sylvanas sending guys to heal the wound and the Gathering, which was already covered and had fuck all to do with the factions and everything to do with the Forsaken.

Saurfang saw the truth behind this sham. His rebellion will put the Horde back on the right course.

Saurfang was the brain behind the entire invasion and completely agreed with Sylvanas' sell for the War of Thorns, predicated on Genn trying to assassinate her in Stormheim. When he unveiled this plan to the giant Horde army he had, they were 100% on board. Saurfang has no legs to stand on in terms of whether they should have gone to war or not, and barely any claim on how it should be conducted given his sparing of Malfurion.

[yetgdhfgh]

The two forces negotiated a peace and worked together against the Legion. Then, after the Legion was defeated, they organized a joint event to unite Forsaken citizens with their living relatives.

They were at peace until the Horde burned Teldrassil.

Ours is a cycle of hatred! Genn attacked the Horde in Stormheim and he didnt even know Sylvanas plans for the Val'kyr so why did he attack? Anduin prolly didnt even know about the attack thats why that whole zone is filled with Genns Worgen.

Genn Greymane wants revenge for the death of his son thats all he want.

There was no official declaration of war until Genn attacked the Horde in Stormheim.

[George Costanza]

he became the worst char.

No he has been the worst character since cataclysm.

[Magnagarde]

You latched on to me calling him a traitor elsewhere, and then took my statement that they're all traitors as proof that people complain more about Baine than Sylvanas. That's the closest you came to providing evidence and unfortunately:
A.) That's not Evidence
B.) There are more reasons to dislike Baine than just the fact that he's a traitor
C.) Baine's treason against Garrosh involved the Alliance and rebelling against the Warchief, Sylvanas' just involved rebelling against the Warchief. It's not 1:1
D.) My statement, while correct, doesn't appear to be held by the majority. Trying to use a Garrosh fans statement to condemn Sylvanas fans is fantastically stupid.

If you're going to respond make sure it worthwhile. These responses of yours have been lacking.

You failed to address the point that Baine is hated over other, multiple points shared with other Horde characters that are seemingly not hated over it. Being called a traitor is just one, the first one I pointed out because it is the easiest one to debunk and realize how he gets more hate for something other characters are complicit in.

I will not beat a dead horse over with you and nurture your afterthoughts and guessing as to what I'm trying to imply. There's no need for you to concoct self-serving claims (implying they're mine in the process) and then answer them yourself in return to look like you've made a statement.

[Super Dickmann]

You failed to address the point that Baine is hated over other, multiple points shared with other Horde characters that are seemingly not hated over it.

I will not beat a dead horse over with you and nurture your afterthoughts and guessing as to what I'm trying to imply. There's no need for you to concoct self-serving claims (implying they're mine in the process) and then answer them yourself in return to look like you've made a statement.

You were given dozens of arguments about why Baine is uniquely terrible and you failed to address virtually any of them. The fact that you're unable to say a single good thing about his character that isn't contingent on comparing him to Sylvanas or Garrosh, two expansion villains, or bringing up how he could have been a different character if he were written differently says pretty much everything you need to know about both Baine and the posters that speak in favour of him. I.e that they're exclusively Alliance posters who don't give two shits about Baine but are using him as a proxy in arguments about the Horde. Even the most committed muh honor posters have Thrall, Saurfang or Cairne as their go-tos instead of Baine and it's not because they're Sylvanas fans in denial, it's because no Horde player likes Baine.

[Magnagarde]

You were given dozens of arguments about why Baine is uniquely terrible and you failed to address virtually any of them. The fact that you're unable to say a single good thing about his character that isn't contingent on comparing him to Sylvanas or Garrosh, two expansion villains, or bringing up how he could have been a different character if he were written differently says pretty much everything you need to know about both Baine and the posters that speak in favour of him. I.e that they're almost exclusively Alliance posters who don't give two shits about Baine but are using him as a proxy in arguments about the Horde.

As I've said before, my point wasn't to "provide positives" of Baine, but to provide examples in which his negatives are exaggerated beyond reasonable limits when other characters do similar things.

[Super Dickmann]

As I've said before, my point wasn't to "provide positives" of Baine, but to provide examples in which his negatives are exaggerated beyond reasonable limits when other characters do similar things.

they're almost exclusively Alliance posters who don't give two shits about Baine but are using him as a proxy in arguments about the Horde.

Don't worry, I know.

[Magnagarde]

Don't worry, I know.

I'm sure that is a reasonable guess, as long as you keep the tinfoil hat on.

[Wildberry]

You failed to address the point that Baine is hated over other, multiple points shared with other Horde characters that are seemingly not hated over it. Being called a traitor is just one, the first one I pointed out because it is the easiest one to debunk and realize how he gets more hate for something other characters are complicit in.

I didn't fail to address a thing. I completely explained why Baine gets more hate for treason than other Horde leaders. It wasn't buried in a wall of text, it was clearly compiled in an easy to read list. If you're incapable of understanding that one point, that's entirely on you. Your biggest argument has zero credibility.

You've "debunked" nothing. All you've managed to do is spin anti-Sylvanas fan conspiracy theories, try to shift some goalposts and embarrass yourself.

Feel free to address anything in the core my previous response. God knows this reply of yours didn't.

[Super Dickmann]

I'm sure that is a reasonable guess, as long as you keep the tinfoil hat on.

You've proven my point in your own post. You have not been able to bring up a single positive quality of Baine's or counter the many arguments raised as to why he's so bad, only equivocating between him and other, better characters because he gives you a soapbox to stand on and bitch about unrelated topics.

[Wildberry]

as long as you keep the tinfoil hat on.

w e w l a d:

hating on characters like ... Baine is all the rage because they want nothing more than a shift from an orc, troll and tauren centric horde towards an all-out undead elf and human faction.

because, you know, if there were no elven and human chics and archers in the horde, it would be lead by orcs, tauren and trolls and baine might've been written in a more interesting and compelling way, instead of being a plot device used to show just how strong-willed sylvanas is and how she's surrounded by weaklings.

[Magnagarde]

I didn't fail to address a thing. I completely explained why Baine gets more hate for treason than other Horde leaders. It wasn't buried in a wall of text, it was clearly compiled in an easy to read list. If you're incapable of understanding that one point, that's entirely on you.

It was burried in a wall of you trying to guess what I'm trying to say and glorifying yourself.

You failed to address how Sylvanas gets a pass on mistreating her people and showing very little care of them. She was the prime example of a character that used an entire group of undead as a tool to shield herself from her own demise. But hey, I guess Baine not responding to Taurajo is a bigger offense to his people's future than Sylvanas classifying her own as her arrows in the quiver, meant to shield her from undeath.

You failed to address how Sylvanas literally kills her own people, even those returning to her in Arathi. A lot of care for the future of her people, much more than Baine, yes?

You failed to address how Lor'themar makes contact with the enemy leader too.

You failed to address how Sylvanas was in talks with Vereesa to get her over to join, even though Vereesa went ape on a race within the Horde, together with Jaina Proudmoore. Talk about talking with enemies of your faction and allies.

Remember when Sylvanas ran off into the woods to kill animals because she's emotionally hurt? I'm sure running off into a forest by Baine is so much worse by comparison.

You've "debunked" nothing. All you've managed to do is spin anti-Sylvanas fan conspiracy theories, try to shift some goalposts and embarrass yourself.

If you keep up at this rate, you'll drown in self-elevation.

[Super Dickmann]

It was burried in a wall of you trying to guess what I'm trying to say.

You failed to address how Sylvanas gets a pass on mistreating her people and showing very little care of them, but of herself alone. She was the prime example of a character that used an entire group of undead as a tool to shield herself from her own demise. But hey, I guess Baine not responding to Taurajo is a bigger offense to his people's future than Sylvanas classifying her own as her arrows in the quiver, meant to shield her from undeath.

You failed to address how Sylvanas literally kills her own people, even those returning to her in Arathi. A lot of care for the future of her people, much more than Baine, yes?

You failed to address how Lor'themar makes contact with the enemy leader too.

You failed to address how Sylvanas was in talks with Vereesa to get her over to join, even though Vereesa went ape on a race within the Horde, together with Jaina Proudmoore. Talk about talking with enemies of your faction and allies.

And not one single positive quality of Baine in this entire paragraph. Sylvanas could be Satan incarnate and it wouldn't make Baine any less of a pussy or a traitor or meaningfully improve him as a character. She's peripheral to why he's awful, not a cause.

[Magnagarde]

You've proven my point in your own post. You have not been able to bring up a single positive quality of Baine's or counter the many arguments raised as to why he's so bad, only equivocating between him and other, better characters because he gives you a soapbox to stand on and bitch about unrelated topics.

I've proven your point... which has no relation to the point as to why I've made my initial post in here? I'm glad you've proven your point to yourself lol

For what, the third or fourth time now? The idea behind my post is to show that Baine's negative sides are exaggerated beyond objective reason and how other characters get off with almost nothing when doing extremely similar things. Not to point out his positives.

- - - Updated - - -

And not one single positive quality of Baine in this entire paragraph. Sylvanas could be Satan incarnate and it wouldn't make Baine any less of a pussy or a traitor or meaningfully improve him as a character. She's peripheral to why he's awful, not a cause.

A: Baine does, when it comes to the meaning of it, identical stuff as Sylvanas.
B: Baine gets shit on.
C: Sylvanas doesn't get shit on.
D: Return to my initial post that Sylvanas fans are largely to blame for the negativity Bane recieves. Only a Sylvanas fan would be negative about almost identical things Baine does, instead of being equally objective across the board, in which case there'd be no standalone Baine meme, but a Sylvanas and Baine meme to bash.

So now, why is Baine bash-worthy, but other characters such as her and Lor'themar are not?

[Kraddark]

It's impressive to be wrong about every single point made. The Horde and Alliance were at peace before and during the Broken Shore, discounting Ashran as a skirmish between nobodies. After the Broken Shore and the Alliance intelligence, run by a dreadlord at the time who was trying to sow conflict between the factions, the first attack to take place is by Alliance initiative when Genn and Rogers use an airship to bomb the Forsaken fleet while they're heading to Stormheim to assassinate the Horde's head of state. Afterwards, the Alliance and the Horde have no involvement in the plot until Silithus, there's no implication at all that peace settled.

In fact, Anduin explicitly states that the Gathering is a) not a peace offer or a peace summit and b) that this isn't a ceasefire. You can't have a ceasefire if there's no war. The Alliance and Horde are in a defacto cold war since the Broken Shore, which turns into a hot one with the War of Thorns. There are no joint events in the book to speak of, short of both Anduin and Sylvanas sending guys to heal the wound and the Gathering, which was already covered and had fuck all to do with the factions and everything to do with the Forsaken.



Saurfang was the brain behind the entire invasion and completely agreed with Sylvanas' sell for the War of Thorns, predicated on Genn trying to assassinate her in Stormheim. When he unveiled this plan to the giant Horde army he had, they were 100% on board. Saurfang has no legs to stand on in terms of whether they should have gone to war or not, and barely any claim on how it should be conducted given his sparing of Malfurion.

You bring up a lot of irrelevant info concerning the Demons and the Broken Shore. Yeah, the alliance was tricked by demons. It has nothing to do with the current war brought on by the burning of Teldrassil.

Sylvanas gave about a dozen crappy reasons for burning Teldrassil and many of them conflict. She was a victim in Stormheim! The Alliance will eventually attack! She wants to capture the city and hold it hostage! She wants to destroy hope! It's only necessary because Saurfang failed to kill Malfurion! She is lying. Saurfang realizes this during the burning of Teldrassil.

Again, assuming there was a ceasefire, you don't launch surprise attacks during the ceasefire. You declare the end of the ceasefire and the war continues. Genn was totally out of line during his attack in Stormheim but it was obviously not sanctioned by the Alliance or Anduin. It's hypocrisy to blame the entire Alliance for what Genn did but then give the entire Horde clemency for all the things Garrosh did. From the very start, Sylvanas admitted her DREAM was to destroy Stormwind and turn its citizens into undead. She never had any peaceful intentions.

I guarantee Saurfang's rebellion will be successful and I guarantee there will be a huge change in the way the Horde conducts itself. Genocide and chemical weapons will not be the Horde's M-O after this expansion.

[Zulkhan]

Sylvanas fans in denial

But that's exactly what we are, I've learned that much. Me, Tauror, Combatbulter, not just the "easy" targets like Friendly and Mehrunes. I guarantee that all of us have been called "Sylvanas fanboys" at least once since we joined this forum.

[Arrashi]

No he has been the worst character since cataclysm.

Aka, since goldens influence started spreading. Hmmm....

- - - Updated - - -

But that's exactly what we are, I've learned that much. Me, Tauror, Combatbulter, not just the "easy" targets like Friendly and Mehrunes. I guarantee that all of us have been called "Sylvanas fanboys" at least once since we joined this forum.

I can't believe you left me out of this.

[Magnagarde]

But that's exactly what we are, I've learned that much. Me, Tauror, Combatbulter, not just the "easy" targets like Friendly and Mehrunes. I guarantee that all of us have been called "Sylvanas fanboys" at least once since we joined this forum.

I'm sure you have and, seeing as the quote you replied to was posted as a response to me, my initial qualification of "Sylvanas fanboy" hasn't gone out to you, Combat and some others which might find themselves called out.

You're quite clearly unequivocally pro-Horde, which will obviously have to see some support sip over to Sylvanas because she leads that faction.

[Zulkhan]

I can't believe you left me out of this.

You should feel glad, it means you're recovering from your sylvanas fanboysm and not jerking over her undead tits like all of us anymore.

[Super Dickmann]

A: Baine does, when it comes to the meaning of it, identical stuff as Sylvanas.
B: Baine gets shit on.
C: Sylvanas doesn't get shit on.
D: Return to my initial post that Sylvanas fans are largely to blame for the negativity Bane recieves. Only a Sylvanas fan would be negative about almost identical things Baine does, but be equally objective across the board, in which case there'd be no standalone Baine meme, but a Sylvanas and Baine meme to bash.

Okay, let's beat this dead horse a while longer.

A. No, he doesn't. Baine doesn't do anything. He's an entirely perfunctory character who meekly goes along with the Warchief while simultaneously whining endlessly about it, never taking any action until another party has shown initiative. This is the case in Mists, this is the case in BFA. Even your own examples are laughable in terms of comparison, and ones we've beat to death before.

Baine has never, in any way, benefitted his people, and we have ample reason to believe he doesn't reflect their opinion in the majority, given how tauren are portrayed in the various supplemental materials. By contrast, you can say what you will about Sylvanas, but she turned a bunch of abandoned ghouls living in ruins into an empire spanning several zones and then into the leading power of the Horde, for however long it lasts. Your own reference is bullshit, because her arrows in the quiver line refer to her previous form of thinking, not the thinking she has from Cataclysm onwards, which is that, for her own self-interest, the Forsaken are to be used carefully and not wasted, because the more powerful they are, the more safe and powerful she is.

Killing the Desolate Council has been poured over a dozen times, so let's get your usual lines out of the way. No, it wasn't a whole lot of Forsaken, it was twenty people, of which half were rejected and another four to eleven were in the process of defecting. No, a monarch killing defectors in the middle of a meeting is neither new nor evil, it's completely standard for the kind of society she leads and she's killed on more specious grounds before to zero complaint. No, it has no bearing on her treatment of the Forsaken as a whole, given that her first priority when Undercity is attacked is to evacuate all the civilians.

The Vereesa thing is even more retarded, because we know from her internal monologue that she intends to kill Vereesa and raise her as a zombie. Evil, sure, but she's not exactly cooperating with the Alliance there.

As for Lor'themar, Lor'themar's actions have an impetus within his place in the Horde. By that point, Sylvanas had blackmailed him for ages and forced him into costly wars and now Garrosh, to whom he was the right hand man until Mists, as we know from Tides of War, was also sending his people on missions he viewed as the meatgrinder. Prioritizing his people's interests, he tried to defect and then, when that failed and the Purge happened, he again stuck to his guns and decided he'd work within the Horde rather than compromise with the people who just stuck his ambassadors in cells and killed a bunch of shopkeepers. Guy is a traitor to the Blood Oath sure, but every step of the way his people's grievances came first, not so Baine. Jaina is directly responsible for enabling the supplying of the force that sacks Taurajo, yet he exiles his own people who want vengeance for it while warning Jaina of Horde retribution. The business with Derek is a mirror image of that.

Quite clearly the people bitching about Sylvanas won't be the same as the people bitching about Baine, as they are separate fandoms. Or a separate fandom rather, as Baine fans don't exist, they're just Alliance fans using him as a proxy to bitch about Sylvanas, as your posts here have shown. At this very moment, you'll begin nitpicking what I've said here and changing the goalposts time and again, ultimately failing to prove any virtue on Baine's part. If you like the WC3 Horde, you back Saurfang or Thrall. Not even Horde posters who loathe Sylvanas, such as Trassk or Syegfryed, have a single good thing to say about Baine.

You bring up a lot of irrelevant info concerning the Demons and the Broken Shore. Yeah, the alliance was tricked by demons. It has nothing to do with the current war brought on by the burning of Teldrassil.

Sylvanas gave about a dozen crappy reasons for burning Teldrassil and many of them conflict. She was a victim in Stormheim! The Alliance will eventually attack! She wants to capture the city and hold it hostage! She wants to destroy hope! It's only necessary because Saurfang failed to kill Malfurion! She is lying. Saurfang realizes this during the burning of Teldrassil.

Reasons so crappy that Saurfang agreed with them and lead the war happily, up until the Burning. You're confusing the burning with the War of Thorns to push your shitty argument that only Sylvanas is responsible, when Saurfang and the Horde backed her throughout said war and were cheering when Saurfang announced the grounds for war. Saurfang's end revelation is that Sylvanas made sense in her grounds, but her means are so horrible and monstrous, that he simply can't be party to that. That's the reason he doesn't immediately rebel - he can't dispute her points, but neither can he support something that goes so against his values.

Again, assuming there was a ceasefire, you don't launch surprise attacks during the ceasefire. You declare the end of the ceasefire and the war continues. Genn was totally out of line during his attack in Stormheim but it was obviously not sanctioned by the Alliance or Anduin. It's hypocrisy to blame the entire Alliance for what Genn did but then give the entire Horde clemency for all the things Garrosh did. From the very start, Sylvanas admitted her DREAM was to destroy Stormwind and turn its citizens into undead. She never had any peaceful intentions.

There is no ceasefire, that's what I was telling you. Anduin did fuck all about Genn after Stormheim. I've never stated that Sylvanas had any peaceful intentions whatsoever, Sylvanas being evil has no bearing on whether she shot first, and she didn't, Genn did in Stormheim and that's why she was able to convince Saurfang in A Good War and why she had so much support in-story for the attack. I've never given the whole Horde clemency for what Garrosh did, if you had read my posts, you'd know my problem with the Garrosh story and now Sylvanas' is that the Horde is likely to get given a completely free pass after being complicit in monstrous crimes time and again.

I guarantee Saurfang's rebellion will be successful and I guarantee there will be a huge change in the way the Horde conducts itself. Genocide and chemical weapons will not be the Horde's M-O after this expansion.

That's all well and good and I don't doubt it, but it has no bearing on what I said regarding Saurfang's own position as a moral arbiter.