Warlock buffs near?

[Lucrece]

I mean, I think the DH example given by MagdalenaDK that Bacon quoted hits the nail on the heads to anyone who's played DH for some time, and it's a design that's been ported over to many other classes.

Whatever we think about how metamorphosis SHOULD belong to DH, the fact is that they removed a much more nuanced metamorphosis mechanic from demonology warlocks to give DH's a completely shallow version that basically just gives extra damage to the same 2 skills DH's already use. So much so that in Legion, demonblades led as a talent so much because it skipped a major downfall of metamorphosis which was GCD's spent on demon's bite, which didn't change with metamorphosis so demon blades was significantly better since the resource to be spent during metamorphosis didn't clash with the mechanic of metamorphosis. The only reason that is no longer the case is because Blizzard had the brilliant (/s) idea of sticking Immolation aura, an aoe talent, in a row of purely single target traits. Hey, who knew, that when given the choice of a talent that boosts your aoe vs. a ST talent, most people would pick the aoe talent given the importance of M+ and current raid encounterdesigns -- especially if said aoe talent is also fairly close in ST to the purely ST options.

[Shiekyerbooty]

MoP destro was awesome... everything worked well together, RoF generated embers for massive FnB, awesome, it was supposed to, it was an excellent, fun, satisfying aoe kit

I've heard it said, that KJC, nullifies any respectable status as a well developed expansion... BS... I've been a turret, hell Cata Demo is my all time favorite specs, we were as turret mode as you can get

The first iteration of KJC was pretty insane, I must admit, I can rember casting Havoked chaos bolts on the move in battlegrounds, yea, it was fun, but pretty Op
Yet when they nerfed KjC to only working on filler spells... damn that felt so good, I've heard people say it took less skill to play, that's nonsense.. especially for destro, where most of our damage came from our chaos bolt dumps, which we had to plan well and be stationary for

Being able to cast inc on the move didn't take less skil, it just meant we could cast a decent spell and generate embers while running from lime green blobs

The kit was so fun, yes, our numbers were overturned and our health pool and self healing was too much, but I do wish they could have kept more our kit and balanced the damage

I had enjoyed being a turret as Demo in Cata, and I understand the advantages that destro had in MoP, but I don't think being a top 10%er was any more difficult as a turret than it was casting a filler on the move, and one was way more fun than the other

- - - Updated - - -

Weighing in on the Demo conspiracy... so y'all can ridicule me later

I loved Cata Demo and was very reluctant to the demonic fury changes

It seems to me that the last couple of expansions for Demo were actually a test run of Demon Hunters

They were testing metamorphosis iterations on us Demo locks.... feels bad man

In the end.... it seems they discarded demonic fury and went with the GCD.... sad panda

[Deleted]

I've mained lock and only lock in all my tine playing wow, I've never really Had an alt to speak of or been bothered with them. This is the 1st time I've really not had a good time with my lock so I've given some alts a try and it makes you wonder why you bother with a warlock tbh it's been gutted

So bm hunter full dps in the move, can't be interrupted, has disengage baseline which is enhanced by a talent

Mm hunter can cast on the move and gas good instants, disengage baseline enhanced by a talent

Fire mage instant casts, full dps sub 30% blink baseline enhanced by a talent

Frost mage instant casts procs, blink baseline enhanced by a talent

Arcane I haven't tried yet

So that's a run down of ranged as I've no Interest in playing melee

I can't speak for shadow, ele shamny or boomkin

But out of those listed it makes handling mechanics so so much easier than destruction who have portal as a talent, whuch should be baseline and enhanced like others get, we have 2 conflag charges, you could add gateway but every other class can also getaway. affy is pretty mobile as you can just refresh dots but it just feels like we always get the shit end of the stick. We aren't tanky and we aren't mobile. I'm all for being immobile if it's across the board but we seem to be a minority who actually have to super plan ahead by movement not yeah it's fine I'll just keep doing full or very close to it damage whilst I do mechanics.

It's the 1st time I've ever thought about changing mains it feels like we have to make alot more effort to do things other specs do seamlessly

[Deleted]

Quite honestly, I have little will to go on on this topic because it's becoming "he said she said" kind of thing, I guess I just did not find things that complex when you could quite genuinely wreck shit and top by literally rolling face over keyboard as MoP Destro in 5.4.

I honestly don't care about output. You can call it what you want - depth seemed to be the phrase being thrown around but does "more things going on" appease your fancy?

It doesn't matter if it's a big deal - it wasn't a big deal if Haunts pitiful heal back in WOTLK actually healed you, but it still felt nice when it synergised with Life Taps health loss.

You simultaneously seem to not care about small gains or little mechanics you can optimise and discount them for being minor while also now wanting the overpowered nonsense that made it so that you could do anything and still top.
Is there anything you WOULD consider complex in terms of class gameplay in WoW? If not, then complex is either a dead term or you have to use it in terms of relativity, and there was more relative complexity in a lot of old destructions systems than the current one. I've already said the spec was lambasted as being the easiest of the warlock specs, I'm not claiming it's rocket science, but it felt like it had a helluva lot more going on than current destro.

[Gaidax]

Is there anything you WOULD consider complex in terms of class gameplay in WoW? If not, then complex is either a dead term or you have to use it in terms of relativity, and there was more relative complexity in a lot of old destructions systems than the current one. I've already said the spec was lambasted as being the easiest of the warlock specs, I'm not claiming it's rocket science, but it felt like it had a helluva lot more going on than current destro.

Well then people need to be true to themselves. 2nd grade is more difficult than 1st grade, but neither are anywhere near complex, comprehensive or deep.

I already stated my opinion - in my opinion current Destruction is clearly more difficult simply because you actually care about fight mechanics, because they punish you severely for not optimizing movement, positioning and timings to perfection.

All that was simply not a thing for MoP Destruction, where instead you had to count backdraft and havoc stacks and roll your face over shadowburn mouseover macro when low HP target plates appeared and roll your face over stored Chaos Bolts when your trinket aura procced - all of which is quite honestly kindergarten level of problems as opposed to shit you have to deal with now, simply because you don't have perfect answer to just about everything raid throws at you, like in MoP.


But the bottom line is both are still 1st and 2nd grade difficulty really, why I'd say current Mages as a class are more complex and sophisticated than BfA or MoP Destro, especially Arcane, which is often underestimated because "two buttanz lulz".

[crimsonhead]

But the bottom line is both are still 1st and 2nd grade difficulty really, why I'd say current Mages as a class are more complex and sophisticated than BfA or MoP Destro, especially Arcane, which is often underestimated because "two buttanz lulz".

Well then please elaborate for me the complexity of Arcane mages (I don't play a mage nor will I again since 80) beyond everything I am hearing which is "arcane blast till oom" and "arcane missiles on proc" and "arcane explosion when need AoE". I am honestly curious because I don't see that as more complex or requiring any higher level function than current Destruction which I feel requires more pre-planning and understanding of fight mechanics to be successful.

[Gaidax]

Well then please elaborate for me the complexity of Arcane mages (I don't play a mage nor will I again since 80) beyond everything I am hearing which is "arcane blast till oom" and "arcane missiles on proc" and "arcane explosion when need AoE". I am honestly curious because I don't see that as more complex or requiring any higher level function than current Destruction which I feel requires more pre-planning and understanding of fight mechanics to be successful.

You now can cast 5 Chaos Bolts for free at any time during a single encounter on top of what you have banked with shards, but every time you cast 1 such Chaos Bolt you can't generate shards for 25 seconds stacking - your actions?

That's what Arcane is dealing with and it's quite a bit more complex to manage this low hanging fruit and not overreach, as opposed to just be railroaded with binary resource like shards as warlock - you either have them or you don't.


And yes, before some protests come, Arcane does not represent a pinnacle of scientific advance in gameplay industry, but it is sure more... how they say... "relatively complex" to what Warlocks do with their resource.

[Uzkin]

You now can cast 5 Chaos Bolts for free at any time during a single encounter on top of what you have banked with shards, but every time you cast 1 such Chaos Bolt you can't generate shards for 25 seconds stacking - your actions?

Easy: save all the free CBs til the end, and finish the fight by chain-casting them at the boss. (Be sure to spend your banked shards also, so that you end with 0 shards.) Then have a 2-min post-kill bathroom break while the raid clears trash and come back once the debuff has faded.

[Gaidax]

Easy: save all the free CBs til the end, and finish the fight by chain-casting them at the boss. (Be sure to spend your banked shards also, so that you end with 0 shards.) Then have a 2-min post-kill bathroom break while the raid clears trash and come back once the debuff has faded.

OK, add to that - you generate additional stack of this CB every now and then, so you don't want to overcap either.

Then take M. Fetid Devourer where you need to kill key adds every 1 minute or wipe and enrage is also a thing? What now? You use 1 extra CB on adds there? 2? 4?

Shit is not patchwerk 24/7. That's why that specific resource is quite a bit more difficult, because you can genuinely pay the price for miscalculating greed, something that no Warlock really has with Soul Shards, because you simply can't do this and thus don't have such an issue at all.

Soul Shards - you have them or you don't. The biggest play you have there is storing them and then using at right point, you can't go into negative with them that can wreck rest of the fight for you.


Arcane is exact case I am talking about where sophistication and complexity is not correlating to number of buttons you press, it has less buttons to press than either Warlock spec, but it's sure more complex simply because of the actual resource management as opposed to warlock resource "management" which is almost autopilot braindead, unless of course conserving shards for incoming mechanic or for 3 min CDs is something you consider "complex" for Aff/Destro.

Demo is even easier with resource management, that's why I consider it to be easiest Warlock spec by far, on top of its virtually 0 creative play due to lack of multidotting or havoc. It's quite literally a "train" choo-choo spec - you have a straight railroad and you ride it out without turning left or right ever.

[crimsonhead]

OK, add to that - you generate additional stack of this CB every now and then, so you don't want to overcap either.

Then take M. Fetid Devourer where you need to kill key adds every 1 minute or wipe and enrage is also a thing? What now? You use 1 extra CB on adds there? 2? 4?

Shit is not patchwerk 24/7. That's why that specific resource is quite a bit more difficult, because you can genuinely pay the price for miscalculating greed, something that no Warlock really has with Soul Shards, because you simply can't do this and thus don't have such an issue at all.

Soul Shards - you have them or you don't. The biggest play you have there is storing them and then using at right point, you can't go into negative with them that can wreck rest of the fight for you.


Arcane is exact case I am talking about where sophistication and complexity is not correlating to number of buttons you press, it has less buttons to press than either Warlock spec, but it's sure more complex simply because of the actual resource management as opposed to warlock resource "management" which is almost autopilot braindead, unless of course conserving shards for incoming mechanic or for 3 min CDs is something you consider "complex" for Aff/Destro.

Demo is even easier with resource management, that's why I consider it to be easiest Warlock spec by far, on top of its virtually 0 creative play due to lack of multidotting or havoc. It's quite literally a "train" choo-choo spec - you have a straight railroad and you ride it out without turning left or right ever.

I hear what you are saying and I think for some - and maybe I am in the minority - the complexity for me doesn't come out the building and spending of the resources (and thank you for the insight into arcane as I had no idea that's how the spec is currently built) but moreover when I spend them - that for me is what has me feeling more accomplished than just pooling the resources and then unleashing - granted there is no incentive to pool + release vs spend as you get for Destruction like there used to be so technically not spending 2 embers on a CB is considered a DPS loss. Having said that though, I am constantly aware of my cds and procs and want to get the most out of them. If I see Havoc at ~ 5 sec left and I see me at 3 shards I will push myself to 4 shards before Havoc comes off CD to squeeze 2 CBs in that Havoc window - sometimes if I can get lucky I can even squeeze in 3 - those windows are what I enjoy working in.

I am not going to call it "complex" gameplay by any stretch but I think it takes a certain length of time of learning and mastering a class (I am by no means calling myself a master) that you find the shortcuts and tricks to expedite the rotation and / or maximize efficiency. I know I have gotten reallllly used to casting back to back with low latency to have smooth rotations and have gotten so used to doing it that it's just natural. Regardless of how much haste I get I am familiar when I can begin queuing up the next spell in my rotation based on the situation and current resources. I am trying different things and do different approaches to give myself the best opportunity for success. Compared to current Arcane, yes, Destruction doesn't have to worry about the same issues that Arcane faces but I am sure there are issues that Destruction faces that Arcane does not have to deal with. Executing Destruction's rotation coupled with at least two-target cleave (throughout encounter) sometimes isn't even enough to compete with other classes, regardless of how perfectly the rotation is executed because of some of the pitfalls.

While Uldir has movement fights I wouldn't place such a claim on the entire raid. Once you learn the fight(s) any player worth their salt should know how to place themselves in the best opportunity and position to succeed. I think Destruction has a flow to it, it just hasn't been properly aligned since MoP. MoP our toolkit felt very synergistic and spells related and fed off each other in a true resource building and resource spending relationship. I wish we could return to that to allow for some additional synergy outside infernal burst windows. Either nerf GoSup to be 4% per soul shard spent over 30 seconds and take the damage from that and inject it straight into Chaos Bolt itself - then, allow spending 3 soul shards to reduce the CD of GoSup by .5 - 1 sec (with additional benefit from immolate tick crits or something). This will allow us to not feel like outside that 3 minutes we are dogshit. In addition, I would like Havoc to really find it's proper role within our toolkit. I don't think the way it is now really gives us much of anything from what it used to be. It should be reverted to 1 chaos bolt and 3 incinerates and make that CB hit like a fucking MAC TRUCK.

I honestly felt that with the pruned version of KJC we had at the end of MoP (allowing fillers to be cast) was a good middle ground from "all spells" and "no spells" - I can eat a 60% movement speed debuff if it allows me to not have to move during casting and screw up a rotation which already is so reliant on constant output.

[burek]

A wall of text just to say you want MoP back.... We get it, but you aren't getting it back

[Baconeggcheese]

A wall of text just to say you want MoP back.... We get it, but you aren't getting it back

That's what they told the people who wanted vanilla back *shakes fist*

[Lucrece]

By now I'd even settle for WoD destro, anything before Legion really.

[Baconeggcheese]

By now I'd even settle for WoD destro, anything before Legion really.

I mean, wod destro was mop destro with 1 shitty talent tacked on... that someone up and decided to bake in...

[Lucrece]

I won't even go into how they up and deleted our embers aura and never bothered to put it back in, even while several warlock spells still have half finished animations, Soulfire is vanilla Pyroblast, and demonbolt both looks half finished and doesn't even work with green fire. The spell updates to green fire also clash rather hideously with the really outdated Channel Demonfire by comparison.

By now I'd settle for CDF to look like the projectiles the Jailors use, but I guess they don't want to steal from DH's fel barrage.

Anyways, I meant to say I'd even be fine with Charred Remains WoD destro over this crap we have now. Not my preference, but anything is better than current destro (and demo post-Legion; this imp mother crap sucks ass).

[Baconeggcheese]

Feel like they could just recycle the dimensional rift animation.

Though TBH I'd rather CDF just die in its current form.

[Deleted]

It's an ongoing irony that trash NPC's can have cooler spell effects than player classes

[Deleted]

I really miss the ability to Pool resources and sit on them a bit. Like we did in MoP/WoD with destro/demo. Don't overcap and wait for Dark Soul (2 charges) and procs to unleash hell. Especially demo without Demonbolt had this, though it kinda sucked to start with 0 cores and had to dump fury at the start with the Meta version of Shadowbolt.

[evertonbelmontt]

After playing quite a bit with demon this week, it becomes obvious why they are affraid of buffing it. Spec is solid, your AoE blows afflic out of the water and the molten core procs are amazing ways to bank damage for priority targets, it's doing 7k normal and 14k crits, your rotation is easy AF also.

If demon gets to be better ST than afflic, afflic has nothing else for it. Demon cleaves way better unless it's a council or multitarget spread fight.

TLDR: will stick with demon to M+ and see what happens.

[garonne]

After playing quite a bit with demon this week, it becomes obvious why they are affraid of buffing it. Spec is solid, your AoE blows afflic out of the water and the molten core procs are amazing ways to bank damage for priority targets, it's doing 7k normal and 14k crits, your rotation is easy AF also.

If demon gets to be better ST than afflic, afflic has nothing else for it. Demon cleaves way better unless it's a council or multitarget spread fight.

TLDR: will stick with demon to M+ and see what happens.

not sure what you're talking about man. affliction has better burst than demo, better spread damage, better two or three target damage, better damage on the move. demo has better burst aoe, and possible better aoe overall. the reason why affliction is so good for uldir is fight mechanics. affliction excels at almost all of them. and to overcome fight mechanics you look at the spec's mechanics. look at max potential of single target (affliction), movement (affliction), target swapping (affliction), a fight with aoe, target swapping and movement (affliction), two target cleave (destro with aff close behind), main target with priority adds (affliction) and so on and so forth.

our titled niche is single target and clumped aoe and we can't even be the head honcho of our class when it comes to those fights. semantics aside (mechanics or tuning) that to me is demo's main problem.

sn: i think destro should be unequivocally better at two target cleave and i honestly dont see that.

sn2: even with the problems i stated above, demo in m+ is fun for me.