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  1. #221
    They finished mythic in 2 weeks i guess and states raids are dying?
    Ok blizzard should care about method and rest of top 10. Only they will be 385+ ilvl, no mythic+ dg so plebs wont have gear , right?
    Mythic raids should be Flexible size, but nothing wrong having m+ system. I got 0 azerite gear from m+, where these guys looted 385 azerite from mythic raid.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by xalai View Post
    Epic statement by JDOTB

    Raids are dead. M+ is the future.

    Finally, and on a kind of unrelated note, I’d like to address Ion’s point that M+ should have loot disadvantages because “the activity requires four other people as opposed to coordinating and scheduling a full raid group.” I couldn’t disagree more vehemently with that line of logic, and it feels like the player base is being punished for the sins of the developers. The idea that players should be extra rewarded for putting up with the headache of finding 20 players that can all commit to playing at the same time is questionable at best. If Blizzard recognizes that the raid format is burdensome and onerous, maybe try fixing the raid format instead of incentivizing players to put up with it by throwing more loot at them. Part of the reason M+ has ascended so rapidly is because *gasp* it’s accessible. You don’t need five officers, a webpage, a Discord server and a recruitment post that you bump daily to do a +16 key. Blizzard has struck gold with M+, and rather than lean into it, Blizzard has decided that it needs to prop up raiding with favorable loot systems. Raiding is an anachronism from an era where massively multiplayer was actually the selling point. Now every game has persistent massive online worlds, and raiding has ceased to be spectacle and instead turned into homework. Let it die. M+ is the future.

    Source: https://www.wowhead.com/news=287612/...ted-and-teemin
    raiding problem is that tech cannot keep up with it and so we are stuck with an old system, scaling was a small step in the right direction but what wow and any other mmo with instanced raids lack is massive events were more than 1 guild is able to field it's whole roster.
    raids that require 200 player to fight? yes please but there isn't a server able to support something like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Well put.


    The way I'd do things like azerite armor for M+ vs raids is to drop different traits in each with a shared base. So maybe 5 or 6 pieces with similarly useful traits and then 5 or 6 with traits that favor the environment in which they drop.
    Agreed. The inclusion of Re-origination Array in Uldir tells us that they think this might be a good idea -- but they're not going all-in because they want M+ to be worse. Kind of a drag.

  4. #224
    Deleted
    I think many here misinterpret what he is saying. M+ shouldn't have "loot disadvantage" and that you should be able to just play m+ and gear up as fast as if you were raiding. Players should be able to choose what format they play and have fun without feeling that they have to do Y to be able to have fun in X. If you could progress in m+ way that m+ gave best loot for m+ (even if that gear was nerfed or disabled inside raids) then there would be big drop of number of players doing raids normal/hc pugs would die fast and many who only raid mythic so they can stay competitive in m+ would simply stop doing raids. Point is that if Blizzard gave players option so that you wouldn't have to raid to stay competitive in m+ then there would be big drop of players doing raids and pug raids would be first to die.

    I would like to see M+ gear should scale up 15 or maybe higher and that gear could get -40 ilvl inside raids or something so it wouldn't interference with raids, but still let players who compete in m+ only to keep playing m+ instead having to do raids to stay competitive.

  5. #225
    There are a lot of people who think the exact opposite of this, that M+ is a chore and just want to raid. His opinion is very shortsighted and selfish.

  6. #226
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burzian View Post
    Agreed. The inclusion of Re-origination Array in Uldir tells us that they think this might be a good idea -- but they're not going all-in because they want M+ to be worse. Kind of a drag.
    Yeah, that's silly. What you want to do is to avoid the "oh, if I want to minmax to raid, now I need to run M+" so you give the powerful M+ armor things that only really benefit people running M+ and vice versa the raid armor should be applicable to raid situations but not greatly helpful in M+. Then add in some armor that's good but not tilted like that in both places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramayana1423 View Post
    There are a lot of people who think the exact opposite of this, that M+ is a chore and just want to raid. His opinion is very shortsighted and selfish.
    Which is why the loot should be as I stated here... people should be able to get rewards from what they prefer and not feel that they really need to do the other activity if they don't want to.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by leipuri View Post
    M+ shouldn't have "loot disadvantage" and that you should be able to just play m+ and gear up as fast as if you were raiding.
    So far m+ is a plain blatant advantage, you can get close to 370 in 1 week of m+ except the azerites, while in 1 week of raiding you can get maybe 3 items.

    Only difference is raiding over long period of time can give you more azerite (albeit with narrow choice of traits), while in m+ gearing is more front loaded and then slows down a lot once you only count on weekly chest and titanforges.

    You can't really balance the 2 due to no lockout m+. It's either gonna be m+ is always a shortcut to heroic raiding levels of gear, or not worth at all. No idea how they could fix this issue.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by ramayana1423 View Post
    There are a lot of people who think the exact opposite of this, that M+ is a chore and just want to raid. His opinion is very shortsighted and selfish.
    People are different and both M+ and raid have their place, I for example can't stand time limits as they make me feel stressed and that keys can got backwards in lvl just sucks so I prefer raiding.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    I do think, at the very least, lower difficulty level raids should scale down to at least 8 people. Less would be even better, but I don't see how that'd be possible without a fundamental design shift. But 8 seems doable. (Maybe 6 or 7? I don't think 5 would be possible.)
    the raid format, along with the minimum of 10 players, allow for a different set of encounter design than we see in dungeons like group splitting. Turning down the minimum number of player for raid would drastically limit Blizz options in design, and to be honest, they already have enough issue finding new ideas as it is. Let's not restrict them even more.

  10. #230
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    You can't really balance the 2 due to no lockout m+. It's either gonna be m+ is always a shortcut to heroic raiding levels of gear, or not worth at all. No idea how they could fix this issue.
    They dont need to be balanced but they could be separated more so that players who enjoy one type content dont feel like they have to do something else that they dont enjoy or have fun. Blizzard could separated azerite traits that only worked inside uldir or in m+, gear could get ilvl debuff like m+ gear getting -40 ilvl inside raids, etc.That way you would also avoid scenario some players were complaining in legion that when gear dropped in raids it wasnt upgrade for them because they were lucky in m+.

  11. #231
    sounds like he's just mad that there's one tiny bonus for raiding. Uldir is a spectacular raid and the azerite gear "bonus" is virtually negligible for about 99% of mythic raiders as they will be using 385 azerite gear from their M+ caches, just like the exclusive M+ players, before they've killed enough mythic bosses to have a reasonable chance of getting them from raid b4 their caches.

  12. #232
    Deleted
    He's just talking his book. There's nothing but self-promotion in his statements. He's a Twitch-Leech. If you like him give him your money but don't use that type of parasite as some authority.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomchicken View Post
    Guy has opinion. In other news, sky is blue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    In all seriousness though, did this really need a thread?
    What actually does deserve its own thread on a wow general discussion message board in your opinion if not something like this?

  14. #234
    Warchief roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivinara View Post
    The guy is forgetting that casuals love LFR and casuals pay the bills, not high level m+ players. Raids are the main PvE experience and always will be.
    I raided Heroic in Legion, but I don't have the time to anymore. I could maybe pug it, but the reqs are high and I don't want to treated as a 2nd-class citizen. LFR raiding pales to the challenge of Heroic, but it's better than nothing.

  15. #235
    Deleted
    I mean M+ is a joke, the amount of players pushing is probably a 100th of the amount of players pushing for curve clears in a raid instance.

    If raiding is dead, then mythic plus will follow with it shortly... since the majority of 10 clearers are doing it for the cache and raiding upgrades and not because the think it's superior or a replacement to raiding, because let's face it, mythic + is boring.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by EUPLEB View Post
    I mean M+ is a joke, the amount of players pushing is probably a 100th of the amount of players pushing for curve clears in a raid instance.

    If raiding is dead, then mythic plus will follow with it shortly... since the majority of 10 clearers are doing it for the cache and raiding upgrades and not because the think it's superior or a replacement to raiding, because let's face it, mythic + is boring.

    Pushing high keys is harder than aotc.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    You mean Blood DK + 4 friends is the future of WoW?
    Nice..
    This, the balance is even worse in M+ than raiding.

    since you can basically stack the best 3 dps and tank and healer far easier than you can stack 20 good specs.

    atm clearing a m+ with a shaman in your group should award you +3 key levels, so if you did a 13 with a shaman you're as good as a group with a rogue+mage clearing a 16

  18. #238
    WoW raids are the last stand of actual GROUP content, that requires coordination in the age of braindead genres like MOBAs and battle royales.

    They are the signature move of MMOs and will always be the pinnacle of them.

    Period.

  19. #239
    m+ is boring and a easy way for blizzard to prolong the time people spend in dungeons. Besides, its cool being in a group with many people inside a huge raid. Its way more special than dungeons.

    Removing raids from a MMO would be a horrid decision.

    Whats up with people being unable to handle interacting with more than 4 people at same time? Do they play on potato PCs?

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    This, the balance is even worse in M+ than raiding.

    since you can basically stack the best 3 dps and tank and healer far easier than you can stack 20 good specs.

    atm clearing a m+ with a shaman in your group should award you +3 key levels, so if you did a 13 with a shaman you're as good as a group with a rogue+mage clearing a 16
    +4 levels if your tank is a Warrior, +5 if it's a bear.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

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