[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Kallisto]

but UK insist they got a nice hand already and bluff the EU. we should go "all in" and call the bluff now.

To change the analogy to a plaster. The EU should just come out and say "This is the deal. Take it or leave it." more publicly so instead of the slow pull off it's a swift rip off and we can move on.

[Slant]

Hum, there's a bit of mindgames going on here. The EU could rip off the band aid, no problem. But the EU's goal is actually to make sure that the British people understand who to blame for this desaster. The UK Government has used the EU as a scapegoat for decades and now, finally, the EU is making sure that everyone gets the message, that even the most stupid village idiot understands that this is the UK digging its own grave and the EU trying to avoid it as much as it can within its own legal framework. And the British people need to understand that whatever happens, the EU did not force the issue.

A Brexit where people think the EU is actually "punishing" the UK or somehow wants to exploit the situation to extort the UK, that would be a desaster and alienate the British population for good. And that is the actual goal, to keep the British people invested in the European idea, even if their politicians are going stark raving mad.

[Nigel Tufnel]

To change the analogy to a plaster. The EU should just come out and say "This is the deal. Take it or leave it." more publicly so instead of the slow pull off it's a swift rip off and we can move on.

Yep, I completely agree with this. There is no more time left. The poker analogy is correct but also extremely irritating. Poker is a game. This is, literally, the single most important event in the UK's history since WW2. What the fuck are they (UK government & EU) doing?

You would be asking the Tory Europhiles to go against their own party in order to try and achieve something that Labour wants. etc. /snip

Ok.

What position do you honestly believe they could take that would bring the Tories over to their side, at the risk of triggering another General Election?

For a start, an unequivocally pro-EU position would help, then see what happens. For some politicians on both sides this issue is more important than party politics. Would Ken Clarke ever defect to a centrist Labour Party? Lol, no, of course not. Would Heidi Allen? Hmms.

However, idd. This is not going to happen. I was just pointing out that the current Labour leadership’s priority is not, and never has been, remaining in the EU.

And the snark you were on the receiving end of? I've been having this debate with Pann and now you, and both of you are taking increasingly ridiculous positions in an attempt to hang the blame for this on Labour.

Where. Where have I written this. Something is being lost in translation here. You’re phrasing it as if I was pinning the blame solely on Labour.

All I have ever suggested is that Labour is partly to blame. Which they are. Had Labour taken an unequivocally pro-Remain stance in the run up to the referendum the result might have been different.

I have never suggested they are wholly to blame.

You want a Nigel Tufnel analysis of fault?

Nu Labour’s failure to address localised pressures on infrastructure resulting from large scale economic migration from Eastern Europe in the 00s. 10%
Financial crash & austerity. The failure of trickle-down economics. 20%
UKIP / Farage / right-wing press. 20%
EU’s ever closer union. 10%
Cameron playing party politics. 30%
Corbyn’s Labour’s euroscepticism. 10%

There you go.

I am willing to bet that Labour will be on the right side of that final vote, the only question is whether the Tory/DUP majority will be. Because if they all end up voting for a no-deal scenario, there is absolutely nothing that Labour can do about that. Regardless of what you think.

I would take that bet. And, in the now extremely remote event of a soft Brexit, I would take your money when Corbyn whipps his MPs to vote against the deal. There’s not much in the Independent quote below I disagree with:

While much attention is on the Tory divide, tensions within the Labour Party on Brexit will become very important if an EU deal is struck. Jeremy Corbyn hopes to paper over the cracks by whipping his MPs to vote against the deal – even if they do so for different reasons. But May’s conversion to soft Brexit will make it harder for Corbyn to cajole all his MPs into one division lobby.

There are already four Labour tribes: left-wing eurosceptics like Corbyn who always saw the EU as a capitalist club, centrist Labour eurosceptics who oppose free movement, passionately pro-EU MPs who will do anything to frustrate Brexit and Remainers turned Re-Leavers, many of whom represent constituencies which voted Leave. May’s move potentially creates a fifth Labour group: Remainers who reluctantly accept Brexit must happen but are no fans of Corbyn and might therefore support May’s soft Brexit. Significantly, some have already been quietly sounded out by Tory ministers. “If she gets a soft Brexit deal, I think I would vote for it,” one Labour MP told me. Another said: “A lot of us would probably support a sensible Brexit, whatever our own party told us to do.”

This tribe would come under enormous pressure to toe the Labour line and oppose May’s deal and might well be threatened with deselection by their local parties. Corbyn believes this Commons’ vote will offer Labour’s best chance of forcing a general election before the one due in 2022. But his internal critics point to the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, claiming that rejection of the deal by the Commons would force a Tory leadership election (as May would resign), but not a general election (as Tory MPs and the Democratic Unionist Party would not vote for one in the separate vote required by the act).

Labour’s soft Brexiteers could outgun a last-ditch attempt by hardline Tory eurosceptics to scupper May’s deal by joining forces with the Labour leadership to vote it down, in the hope that results in a “no deal” exit next March. So it is possible that May secures a Commons majority for her EU deal with the help of Labour MPs.

History tells us that Europe cuts across party lines. When Parliament voted to join the Common Market in 1972, some 69 Labour MPs defied the party whip by supporting a Tory prime minister, Edward Heath, allowing him to overcome opposition to entry from the Labour left and Tory right. What happened when the UK joined might just be repeated as it leaves.

However, as a soft Brexit is now ruled out (unless the poker players in Whitehall and Brussels are actually bluffing) All that is left is a hard Brexit that will be celebrated by the loonies on the hard right and hard left.

[Kallisto]

While I understand that, what I think the issue is that the Dribbles type who are you average brexiteer are going to blame the EU regardless, most other people are generally knowing it's the Tories who are the issue (while the divide is on would labour too better, which is we'll never know because they are not in power). The EU could come and offer milk, cookies and million pounds for all, they would still blame the EU for everything. One just has to browse the intellectual void mine field of your average brexiteer to see this. "We save d Europe from the Germans, now they want to punish us when they should be bowing to us.", "Europe is screwing us by not giving us what we want.", "We should preparer for conflict with Europe if we don't get what we want.".... I wish I made the last one up, but this is what gets shared over and over.

If it was between two rational groups it would work, but the brexiteers are not even close to rational. Either way it'll be done in a few weeks and we can just sit in told you so zone.

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Yep, I completely agree with this. There is no more time left. The poker analogy is correct but also extremely irritating. Poker is a game. This is, literally, the single most important event in the UK's history since WW2. What the fuck are they (UK government & EU) doing?

The EU has basically said their views they just need to be louder. Nothing that breaks the four pillars. Offered a Northern Ireland backstop to help with the Irish border which was thrown out.

[Gibblewink]

I think the EU is reluctant to offer an ultimatum, less because they hope to convince UK voters but more because that would offer a point of attack for eurosceptic parties who want to paint the EU in the worst light. Letting the sand in the hourglass slowly run out is far harder to pin on the EU than a link to soundbite of a eurocrat meanie.

[Gibblewink]

CETA-style is at this point absolutely the best that we can hope for. It is also the best for testing the effects of leaving the EU, as the Brits will be free to make all those magical trade deals that no one else have thought to make all these years they have been languishing in bondage.

The Tories going all Battle of Britain "You shall not force us" in case of a take-it-or-leave-it before the last day is a quite real risk. That would allow them to dodge the responsibility and capitalize on nationalism. I do wish May hadn't shackled herself to the DUP - That move made the negotiations SO much harder.

[ranzino]

Theresa May is still occupied with securing her own PM-ship. now everybody is waiting for her speech at the conservative conference.

[Slant]

I mean, you don't have to like these dudes and their campaign, but answer their questions... sensibly. It's not like none of this is rocket science, really.

[Kallisto]

I mean, you don't have to like these dudes and their campaign, but answer their questions... sensibly. It's not like none of this is rocket science, really.

The more I watch these guys the more insane brexit seems to be. I know democratic mandate and such but there has to be a time where "will of the people" needs to make way to "Common sense."

Also had to laugh at the Harwich pronounciation bit as being from the area.

[Slant]

The more I watch these guys the more insane brexit seems to be. I know democratic mandate and such but there has to be a time where "will of the people" needs to make way to "Common sense."

Also had to laugh at the Harwich pronounciation bit as being from the area.

I probably would've done the same mistake. I try to remember them, but geez, it's like you guys go out of your way to spell town names funny just so you can spot the outsider. Greenwich, Harwich, Edinburgh, Glocester (I mean, seriously? The spelling isn't even remotely close... a whole syllable is missing!) and don't get me started on the Welsh... Llanfair is probably one of the oldest trolls in the history of mankind. I'm fairly certain I would even get heckled for just trying the commonly used short form, let alone get beyond the second syllable... (fun fact, Llanfair apparently has a city partnership with Y, a town in France having the shortest name in Europe (and Llanfair obviously having the longest one-worded name :P)...

Erm, but back on topic: These guys are good at asking questions. Sensible questions. Questions we've asked here, too. I absolutely would like to see them talk against Dribbles, only I know they're normal people and not forum dwellers, so they would probably stop talking to him after about... oh, 30s and look for people that they can actually talk with.

If nothing else, they're doing a better campaign than Remain ever did. I mean, seriously... two dudes drinking beer in a pub... are making a better campaign than a million pound political adventure done by so called "professional" politicians. It's disgusting.

[Kallisto]

I probably would've done the same mistake. I try to remember them, but geez, it's like you guys go out of your way to spell town names funny just so you can spot the outsider. Greenwich, Harwich, Edinburgh, Glocester

The towns with names ending with wich though are Anglo-Saxon. They're your words :P

[Slant]

The towns with names ending with wich though are Anglo-Saxon. They're your words :P

Yeah well, we didn't pronounce them like that when we gave you the words. That's on you!

[dribbles]

Erm, but back on topic: These guys are good at asking questions. Sensible questions. Questions we've asked here, too. I absolutely would like to see them talk against Dribbles, only I know they're normal people and not forum dwellers, so they would probably stop talking to him after about... oh, 30s and look for people that they can actually talk with.

If nothing else, they're doing a better campaign than Remain ever did. I mean, seriously... two dudes drinking beer in a pub... are making a better campaign than a million pound political adventure done by so called "professional" politicians. It's disgusting.

Haha, you know I watched 5 minutes of this trio of half pissed kumbaya remainers. All seemed focused around one entitled stupid British expat who abandoned the UK over 30 years ago and was complaining how she didn't get to vote in the referendum. Stupid woman hasn't paid taxes in the UK, lived in the UK for decades and still expects to shape Britains future? IMHO she should be stripped of her UK citizenship and the EU/Spain are welcome to her. Why after all this time hasn't she taken EU/Spanish citizenship?

The UK owes her nothing. Good riddance. You called Slanty, I answered.

[Slant]

Haha, you know I watched 5 minutes of this trio of half pissed kumbaya remainers. All seemed focused around one entitled stupid British expat who abandoned the UK over 30 years ago and was complaining how she didn't get to vote in the referendum. Stupid woman hasn't paid taxes in the UK, lived in the UK for decades and still expects to shape Britains future? IMHO she should be stripped of her UK citizenship and the EU/Spain are welcome to her. Why after all this time hasn't she taken EU/Spanish citizenship?

The UK owes her nothing. Good riddance. You called Slanty, I answered.

Oh wow, if anyone needed proof how worthless your opinion is, I think you just provided it.

[dribbles]

Oh wow, if anyone needed proof how worthless your opinion is, I think you just provided it.

You posted a nonsense video and I quote.

Interviewer : "Brexit affects you massively?"
Interviewee : "OH yes!"

Stupid bitch hasn't lived in the UK for 30 years, how does it affect her so massively WTF Slanty? You might as well post Benny Hill videos in support of remain. I thought you were more intelligent than that, getting desperate tick tock?

[Fuiking]

Haha, you know I watched 5 minutes of this trio of half pissed kumbaya remainers. All seemed focused around one entitled stupid British expat who abandoned the UK over 30 years ago and was complaining how she didn't get to vote in the referendum. Stupid woman hasn't paid taxes in the UK, lived in the UK for decades and still expects to shape Britains future? IMHO she should be stripped of her UK citizenship and the EU/Spain are welcome to her. Why after all this time hasn't she taken EU/Spanish citizenship?

The UK owes her nothing. Good riddance. You called Slanty, I answered.

Oh wow, Dribbles, if we can do the same to those freeloading old british hags in Spain and France id be happy.

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You posted a nonsense video and I quote.

Interviewer : "Brexit affects you massively?"
Interviewee : "OH yes!"

Stupid bitch hasn't lived in the UK for 30 years, how does it affect her so massively WTF Slanty? You might as well post Benny Hill videos in support of remain. I thought you were more intelligent than that, getting desperate tick tock?

Cant visit family easily, has to change pounds to euros etc etc, time to start reading up on those consenquences Dribbles.

[Kallisto]

You posted a nonsense video and I quote.

Interviewer : "Brexit affects you massively?"
Interviewee : "OH yes!"

Stupid bitch hasn't lived in the UK for 30 years, how does it affect her so massively WTF Slanty? You might as well post Benny Hill videos in support of remain. I thought you were more intelligent than that, getting desperate tick tock?

If you bothered watching the entire video without acting triggered you would have known how it affected her.

[dribbles]

Oh wow, Dribbles, if we can do the same to those freeloading old british hags in Spain and France id be happy.

Oh yeah me too, all that wealth flooding back to the UK, hope it doesn't crash the Spanish property market when they all sell how's that doing btw? Can't give property away there now I hear and a lot of salty Germans whose investments have gone to shit . These freeloading old British hags as you put it soon come back to the UK when they have spent all their money on the Costas expecting free NHS treatment, council houses and benefits. I and my children are expected to pay for it? It shouldn't be allowed, they made their beds in the EU/Spain.

If you bothered watching the entire video without acting triggered you would have known how it affected her.

So how did it affect her if it is so important? Not that I care, after 30 years of abandoning the bosom of Mother England taxpayers here owe her nothing.

Oh wow, if anyone needed proof how worthless your opinion is, I think you just provided it.

Oh wow, if anyone needed a worthless opinion piece video from you (sample size 3/70000000) I provide a more serious equivalent.

[Thekri]

Theresa May is still occupied with securing her own PM-ship. now everybody is waiting for her speech at the conservative conference.

At some point you should probably stop fighting over who gets to be captain and start addressing the fact the ship is sinking...

[Fuiking]

Sinking? sunk already....

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Oh yeah me too, all that wealth flooding back to the UK, hope it doesn't crash the Spanish property market when they all sell how's that doing btw? Can't give property away there now I hear and a lot of salty Germans whose investments have gone to shit . These freeloading old British hags as you put it soon come back to the UK when they have spent all their money on the Costas expecting free NHS treatment, council houses and benefits. I and my children are expected to pay for it? It shouldn't be allowed, they made their beds in the EU/Spain.



So how did it affect her if it is so important? Not that I care, after 30 years of abandoning the bosom of Mother England taxpayers here owe her nothing.

God forbid that you breed.