Personal loot at its finest.

[rebecca191]

I wouldn't mind trading my loot, but I'm a healer, so loot doesn't help me kill bosses all that much.

[La]

I wouldn't mind trading my loot, but I'm a healer, so loot doesn't help me kill bosses all that much.

I mean, it does if you 4 heal every fight, and also contribute to damage. Of course, DPS being geared first makes everything die faster, which in turn makes the fights shorter, and the healers jobs easier. So, you have a point.

[kamuimac]

You can't do what you want with your loot. If I want to give my loot to someone else even if it is technically an upgrade (especially since ilvl does not equal automatic upgrade), then I should be allowed to. It was my item I won, after all.

stop with this bs - its all lies . spread on purpose by people who never were giving loot away in first place.

the only reason people are saying it is because they are angry they couldnt abuse this poor rogue alt that he had to waste time leveling and gearing up on because they wanted to cheese boss. and it worked - only they didnt get loot from it - its karma biting them back for cheating system by cheesing tactics.

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Omg you are starting to get on my fucking nervs dude, I am not only talking about LOOT WHORING for a 5% DPS incress , you ARGH , .... I don't care for 2-5% and what you are talking about ( even i still think you are wrong ) the main issue is i can't trade with my friends, and they can't with me. Ya personal loot is good for normal dung's lvling and LFR , everything else is quite bad, bad for the community of friends bad for gearing up, I / we don't want to paly a slot machine , can't you understand that ?

You might eb the one who dose not understand that Vers brings me nothing but Mastery dose, 500 ver, and 0 mastery is not good for me , but 500 mastery and 0 vers is good, is taht so Hard to understand ? How ?

How is it hard to understand that i can't trade a 5 lvl item upgrade with my friend who might be 20 tems lower then me a GOOD THING ? Jesus krish posrani.

I am wrong, my friends are wrong, youtubers are wrong, mythic raiders are wrong, everyone is fucking wrong, but not you people , nah , we are just people who can't addapt to the game... Omg, some of us play the game more then a decade and we still do , that's why we care.

It is SIMPLE, the DEV admitted that the Azorite system is bad and so on , i WONT repeat others , you can read about it, but if you still insist that you are right and others wrong, then live your life in delusion.

considering how blizzard - company that owns game and everything in there including you chars is siding with "us" not with "you" - yes you are wrong . and you have been wrong for years.

only problem was blizzard didnt have balls in past to change unfair system . now luckily it changed.

just because something is happening for a decade it doesnt meant its a good thing. changes are inevitable . evolution cannot be stopped - and games that dont evolve die. thats why changes had to be made to ensure game being fair.

i bet you right here that at least part of panel on blizzcon "play nice,play fair" will be about PL and why change need to be made to stop overall perception of guilds as being toxic and abusive and the reason why people choose on purpose to not look for guild

[The One Percent]

stop with this bs - its all lies . spread on purpose by people who never were giving loot away in first place.

the only reason people are saying it is because they are angry they couldnt abuse this poor rogue alt that he had to waste time leveling and gearing up on because they wanted to cheese boss. and it worked - only they didnt get loot from it - its karma biting them back for cheating system by cheesing tactics.

I highly doubt the guy cares about loot on his alt rogue. When you are a mythic raider who clears mythic within a month or two of the raid's release, you don't care about gear for your alt that will only be used in one fight, you care about loot going to the place where it will increase the group's overall performance so you don't have to bring your alt to get the edge on the boss. The mentality you are describing is something that lower end raiders care about (which is why they tend to stay stuck in heroic or lower).

[JackWest]

[sarcasm] @kamuimac is so right here. Having our tanks and healers be the best geared is surely helping us kill the fetid adds fast enough. And thwre is no better feeling than seeing the other hunter in the guild get higher ivls weps from every boss that drops one, and me not getting anything, bonus rolls included. Best design indeed [/sarcasm]

[Tharkkun]

Wtf you talking about ? so my main mastery stat that i lose totally is worthless ? I should replace it with a stat that has nearly 0 worth for me , and some for the tank? Sorry dude i dont get it.. EVEN So , what if i am good Friend and feel a joly mood and want to give the item to my friend because he had a bad day? I can't , LOL , you Sir are , talking out of you'r ass, show no compassion to other players, ONLY EGO , yes EGO , that's how i see it .


No , personal loot is ok for LFR and might be for normal dungeons , but everything else, its just a unnecessary loot style, that benefits only selfish people

Versatility is not a garbage stat. It just isn't a cool stat. It increases your DPS just like everything else. You're splitting hairs over a 25 DPS loss when the ilevel upgrade alone will be far beyond that. The only time it might truly matter is if there's a breakpoint you want to reach like haste and this would mess things up.

Throw it in raidbots and show us.

[Ophenia]

only problem was blizzard didnt have balls in past to change unfair system . now luckily it changed.

That's not a "balls" problem. That's a society one. When WoW was launched, people were not oversensitive pussies. 2018 Society has to reward mediocrity, and everything has to be equal among everyone, so yeah Blizzard adapted this system to 2018 pussies who can't stand unequity and wants everything their neighbors have, without having to go through the pain of improving themselves.

[Alexeht]

You have just killed zul mythic for the first time! Congratulations!

[kamuimac]

Versatility is not a garbage stat. It just isn't a cool stat. It increases your DPS just like everything else. You're splitting hairs over a 25 DPS loss when the ilevel upgrade alone will be far beyond that. The only time it might truly matter is if there's a breakpoint you want to reach like haste and this would mess things up.

Throw it in raidbots and show us.

i will say it once again - a lot of people stil are mentaly stuck in game from before legion launch - they deliberately ignore how little secondaries matter atm compared to main stats and how flat and close toghether to each other they are.

they are still spreading stupid mentality "omg it has to be bis stats else its garbage" without realising that for in 90% of cases itlv is king now. (baring for rings due to sheer lack of mainstat on them)

[JackWest]

i will say it once again - a lot of people stil are mentaly stuck in game from before legion launch - they deliberately ignore how little secondaries matter atm compared to main stats and how flat and close toghether to each other they are.

they are still spreading stupid mentality "omg it has to be bis stats else its garbage" without realising that for in 90% of cases itlv is king now. (baring for rings due to sheer lack of mainstat on them)

*cough*

*cough*

my stat weights after the last upgrade I got last night(ring from mythic MOTHER)

"ilvl is king" my ass. Not to mention all the 5-10 ilvl upgrade items that were sharded within out guild coz they are legit downgrade, but too high ilvl to trade...

[xcitng]

stop with this bs - its all lies . spread on purpose by people who never were giving loot away in first place.

the only reason people are saying it is because they are angry they couldnt abuse this poor rogue alt that he had to waste time leveling and gearing up on because they wanted to cheese boss. and it worked - only they didnt get loot from it - its karma biting them back for cheating system by cheesing tactics.

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considering how blizzard - company that owns game and everything in there including you chars is siding with "us" not with "you" - yes you are wrong . and you have been wrong for years.

only problem was blizzard didnt have balls in past to change unfair system . now luckily it changed.

just because something is happening for a decade it doesnt meant its a good thing. changes are inevitable . evolution cannot be stopped - and games that dont evolve die. thats why changes had to be made to ensure game being fair.

i bet you right here that at least part of panel on blizzcon "play nice,play fair" will be about PL and why change need to be made to stop overall perception of guilds as being toxic and abusive and the reason why people choose on purpose to not look for guild

Sick LFR opinion, you really think the alt rogue gives a fuck if they leveled it to sub in when they are the most useful? they care about killing bosses efficiently and quickly, getting loot comes next when they farm it for the next few months while you wait for the wings to open.

[Caprix]

*cough*

*cough*

my stat weights after the last upgrade I got last night(ring from mythic MOTHER)

"ilvl is king" my ass. Not to mention all the 5-10 ilvl upgrade items that were sharded within out guild coz they are legit downgrade, but too high ilvl to trade...

Do I miss something or are all your stats weight between roughtly 1.8 and 2.0 values, meaning they are basically swapable and so... yes, ilvl is king for you? I mean even not considering the main stat, the value of your "worse" stats at higher ilvl alone will be better than "best stats" at lower ilvl most of the time.
Not mentioning that as said before, the main stats seem to have way more budget in the stuff anyway, like 385 legs have 329 main stat and "only" 245 cumulated secondary.

[madmossy]

The issue here isn't the fact personal loot completely sucks and more to do with Zul being a badly designed encounter that REQUIRES you to stack a specific class in order to kill it as fast as possible, because the longer the fight goes on the more impossible it becomes.

[JackWest]

Do I miss something or are all your stats weight between roughtly 1.8 and 2.0 values, meaning they are basically swapable and so... yes, ilvl is king for you?

Don't you need main stat to outweigh secondaries significantly for that? I mean, how else you are gonna "compensate" for losing good stat for "bad" one? THats supposed to be the "trade off". The gain in primary stat. So I just did some "simming" to test that. My "biggest haste" item is my belt on 365. There is belt without haste from Zul, that on 370(5 ilvl higher) is as much downgrade as the mythic version(385) is upgrade. So I the item thats gonna be an improvement will be 20 ilvl

[Stallion]

my stat weights after the last upgrade I got last night(ring from mythic MOTHER)

That actually proves that your primary stat is indeed among your best stats with Haste only being 2.05/2.03 = 0.9% more valuable.
Since you won't find a pure haste piece, Haste and Mastery is the best possible combination a piece can have. This means the secondary stat portion of the item is less valuable per point than your primary stat: Let's be generous and assume 2/3 haste, 1/3 mastery, that gives 2/3*2.05 + 1/3*1.84 = 1.98 amortized value of 1 point secondary stat versus 2.03 for primary.
Add to that the fact that there is a bit more points of primary stat on gear than both secondary stats combined and that primary stat scales more with item lvl (1% per item level primary vs 0.5% per item lvl first secondary, 0.3% second secondary or something like that) and it's even more clear why item level is almost always better even if you go from best to worst secondary combination.

[JackWest]

That actually proves that your primary stat is indeed among your best stats with Haste only being 2.05/2.03 = 0.9% more valuable.
Since you won't find a pure haste piece, Haste and Mastery is the best possible combination a piece can have. This means the secondary stat portion of the item is less valuable per point than your primary stat: Let's be generous and assume 2/3 haste, 1/3 mastery, that gives 2/3*2.05 + 1/3*1.84 = 1.98 amortized value of 1 point secondary stat versus 2.03 for primary.
Add to that the fact that there is a bit more points of primary stat on gear than both secondary stats combined and that primary stat scales more with item lvl (1% per item level primary vs 0.5% per item lvl first secondary, 0.3% second secondary or something like that) and it's even more clear why item level is almost always better even if you go from best to worst secondary combination.

I just did few sims to check that myself. I experimented with the belt since mine has most haste. I need at least 10 ilvl item(without haste) to be an upgrade, that means the majority 5 ilvl higher item will be a downgrade. That does NOT sound like "ilvl is king" to me. And that's not an outlier. Since the start of BFA I have scrapped many 5 ilvl upgrades, because they were an actual downgrade

[Ophenia]

The issue here isn't the fact personal loot completely sucks and more to do with Zul being a badly designed encounter that REQUIRES you to stack a specific class in order to kill it as fast as possible, because the longer the fight goes on the more impossible it becomes.

The fact the 6th boss of this raid, being a "major" NPC so far, is designed to barely last 3 minutes, is beyond me.

[Stallion]

@JackWest

Hm, that's strange, some napkin math says that with your stat weights, even 5 item levels should be slightly better going from best to worst secondaries.

Even if 50% of points were primary, 50% secondary (while it's more like 55 vs 45 I think):
A perfect secondary stat item (Haste/Mastery) has X points primary, X points secondary, worth 2.03 and 1.98 respectively per point, so a value of 2.03X + 1.98X = 4.01X

Let's assume both are increased by 5% from 5 item levels (I think secondary gains a bit less, but not 100% sure). Your primary stats increase by 5%. Your secondary stats increase by 5% but at the same time the value of the secondary stats reduces as you go from Haste/Mastery (average worth 1.98 as calculated above) to Crit/Versa (worth 1.8).

Value of a 5 item level higher worst secondary stat (Crit/Versa) item should be:
2.03X*1.05 + 1.8X*1.05 = 4.022X

So a 4.022/4.01 = 0,2% improvement. That's not really an upgrade I would enchant but the differenes is so small, it should at least not be noticeable loss. Even when in practice stat weights are never 100% accurate.
The fact that a bigger portion of an items budget is spent on primary means that it should be even better a bit, also if I remember correctly that primary scales faster than secondary.

Was that dps reduce you saw when simming noticeably big?
*Edit* Maybe it comes from the fact that secondaries truly increase by less than 5% when you go up 5 item levels, which could actually make the new item less valuable in my math. If it only increased by 3% instead, it would give a new value of 3,985X or a 0.7% downgrade indeed.

So yeah, in the worst possible case, 5 item levels probably might be a tiny downgrade, I agree.

[JackWest]

@JackWest

Hm, that's strange, some napkin math says that with your stat weights, even 5 item levels should be slightly better going from best to worst secondaries.

Even if 50% of points were primary, 50% secondary (while it's more like 55 vs 45 I think):
A perfect secondary stat item (Haste/Mastery) has X points primary, X points secondary, worth 2.03 and 1.98 respectively per point, so a value of 2.03X + 1.98X = 4.01X

Let's assume both are increased by 5% from 5 item levels (I think secondary gains a bit less, but not 100% sure). Your primary stats increase by 5%. Your secondary stats increase by 5% but at the same time the value of the secondary stats reduces as you go from Haste/Mastery (average worth 1.98 as calculated above) to Crit/Versa (worth 1.8).

Value of a 5 item level higher worst secondary stat (Crit/Versa) item should be:
2.03X*1.05 + 1.8X*1.05 = 4.022X

So a 4.022/4.01 = 0,2% improvement. That's not really an upgrade I would enchant but the differenes is so small, it should at least not be noticeable loss. Even when in practice stat weights are never 100% accurate.
The fact that a bigger portion of an items budget is spent on primary means that it should be even better a bit, also if I remember correctly that primary scales faster than secondary.

Was that dps reduce you saw when simming noticeably big?

The versa mastery belt from Zul on +5 ilvls was about 90 dps loss and the same belt on mythic, aka +20 ilvls, was about the same but as gain instead. That's not much, but if you have that in most slots and most people in your raid, you'd notice the difference pretty easy imo

P.S. Just because most players can equip the highest ilvl and get away with it, doesnt mean that its the "best" gear and will provide them with the best output. For good or for bad, thats mandatory in the content I am doing(had enough Fetid wipes where the add doesnt die after falling to lower than 0.5% hp every heal tick so he ends up eating it and healing, and we have to wipe)

[Caprix]

I can see a downgrade appear at +5ilvl with those weight, but something like sub 1%, on one slot...come on. Overall ilvl is king with those stats weights.

But anyway i agree most of the time a simple +5ilvl upgrade would be given to someone else if possible.