Seriously? Baine has NO character at all. He's a clone of Saurfang

[Sunderella]

Baine is nothing like Saurfang. Saurfang has done stuff. Baine has done nothing.

[Felixon]

Why not just take Baine out of the story and put Saurfang in his stead. All this talk about HONOR HONOR HONOR. What HONOR? How can a war be won with HONOR? Murdering someone is HONOR? What about murdering someone with fire? That equals dishonor? I'm so sick of this HONOR shit that Saurfang and Baine are spewing. This isn't what the Horde is about. The Horde is about a band of exiles, outcasts, misfits and scoundrels coming together as one people of many cultures. Stop turning the Horde into a red Alliance.

Baine could have his badass moment in Pandaria - you know,being the one,who actually brings down the Hellscream in Mak'gora,avenging his father and becoming a warchief. But he didn't. He truly symbolizes the nature of tauren - being eternally grateful to the orcs for saving,thus becoming their minions without their own will who will agree with everything current warchief decides to do. Why would you need a spine,if there's somebody who tells you what to do?

[Kieldon]

Your edgy waifu is gonna die, deal with it already. She doesn't represent the Horde at all.

If only Baine had a spine and executed her himself. Yet all he does is bark.

[Verdugo]

Your edgy waifu is gonna die, deal with it already.

Look who is speaking about edgy waifus. Someone that likes asspull elves.

[Rafoel]

You'd have to be autistic to not understand the concept of honourable combat/war. It's always been an element in the Horde, there's nothing "Alliance" about it. Even AU-Stonetalon Garrosh cared about honour.

Granted Blizzard's dialogue has been extra terrible as of late. Shoving this "muh honor" shit in every single scene is annoying, it's already made me start to dislike Saurfang.

You have an option to poison enemy soldiers - they will die before morning, and the battle will never come. Or - you can deem it unhonorable, and face their full might in the battle next day - you might win, you might lose, but a lot of your soldiers is going to die for sure.

Saurfang, Baine... all they care about is this "honor". Death isn't bad, as long as its "honorable". They will face their opponents in direct combat.

Sylvanas is different. Sylvanas doesn't care about petty mortal things like "honor". She died once already, and in honorable battle to that. She witnessed the "reward" for it. She wants the victory for her people. She will poison enemies without hesitation. Her people will survive, opponents will die, and thats all that matters.

I understand the concept of honourable combat perfectly... and I'm 100% against it. There is internal conflict in the horde. Let me stand on the side that doesn't consider honor important and stop flaming me for it. Fact that you have a specific vision of how horde should be doesn't mean horde HAS TO be like it.

[Ahrean]

I could quite easily get in to explaining this, but unfortunately all it would do is prove Dickmann's Law correct once again.

I will say though, if Nazgrim is the epitome of Honour, you truly are ignorant. As Thrall said during the Rise of the Horde, what separates his horde from the brutish thugs of the old horde is the wisdom and honour to know that you are headed down a dark path and having the ability to choose not to continue down that dark path. (paraphrasing of course)

Nazgrim gets points for loyalty and being an awesome character, but to say he fits the honour of Thrall's horde truly shows how out of touch one is.

I think a lot of it comes down to what you personally view as the "true" Horde. For me, having my first taste of the Warcraft universe through WC3, Thrall's Horde was the Horde that I fell in love with.

Supposedly, at least according to the info we had at the time, that was what the Horde was back on Draenor, before the demonic corruption thing happened, but a lot of things that have happened since have cast aspersions on that idea. Warlords of Draenor in particular really put into question what "true" Orcs were like before their fall to corruption and subsequent redemption.

Seems like all of us, the players, the devs and the in-game characters are having a kind of identity crisis regarding what "true" Horde honor actually entails, I just wish it'd actually go somewhere. I hoped this period was over at the end of Mists, but again, BfA seems so far to be a 1-for-1 retread of the story.

I must admit though, I had a good laugh when the Orc raiders who suprise-attacked a neutral civilian settlement in Kul Tiras started yammering about "dying with honor" when they get gunned down by farmers with blunderbusses.

[Aucald]

I don't consider Baine and Saurfang the same at all, really. Saurfang committed himself to war with the Alliance (after having been shown that victory was a possible and sustainable outcome by Sylvanas) - something I doubt Baine would've ever agreed to. Both individuals conduct themselves honorably as both leaders and warriors, but it is quite obvious that they have different values and different priorities as concerns the Horde and its future affairs. Saurfang prioritizes the peace and safety of the Horde over peace and safety in the more general sense (Baine is more flexible in terms of how he is willing to achieve peace), so in that sense you could say Saurfang is far more loyal to the Horde as a state than Baine is. Though I don't consider Baine a traitor like many here do, I also feel Baine puts more of an emphasis on the Tauren as a people than he does the Horde as a group, and if push came to shove Baine would enter into a non-aggression pact with the Alliance to preserve his people rather than fighting under the shared banner of the Horde if he felt that struggle were in vain. Saurfang would rather die opposing the Alliance, all things being equal - but, in the current Horde government, all things are not equal.

[Deleted]

You have an option to poison enemy soldiers - they will die before morning, and the battle will never come. Or - you can deem it unhonorable, and face their full might in the battle next day - you might win, you might lose, but a lot of your soldiers is going to die for sure.

Saurfang, Baine... all they care about is this "honor". Death isn't bad, as long as its "honorable". They will face their opponents in direct combat.

Sylvanas is different. Sylvanas doesn't care about petty mortal things like "honor". She died once already, and in honorable battle to that. She witnessed the "reward" for it. She wants the victory for her people. She will poison enemies without hesitation. Her people will survive, opponents will die, and thats all that matters.

I understand the concept of honourable combat perfectly... and I'm 100% against it. There is internal conflict in the horde. Let me stand on the side that doesn't consider honor important and stop flaming me for it. Fact that you have a specific vision of how horde should be doesn't mean horde HAS TO be like it.

Sylvanas has literally no reason to go on except for hate which makes her so incredibly shallow. Everything she does you can trace back to just pure hate. She's dead and her people is dead, she knows there is no future but still she keep killing people and forcing them into their rank. She's pure evil there is no gray zone, and that the horde hasen't figured this out is beyond me. The orcs have changed so much in the lore of wow. If sylvanas would've burned the tree years ago, the horde would have killed her on the spot.

I hope she gets killed off this expansion.

[Deleted]

How Baine is an representative of Horde honor or honor at all is beyond me.

Yes, he talks about honor, but he never acts on it. Which clearly shows, that his words aren't worth anything at all. Instead of being truthful, upfront, standing up for what he believes in, having willpower and a spine, he is spineless and schemes behind the back of Horde warchief's to dethrone them. How is that honorable.

And the biggest problem in regards to Baine isn't, that he looks out for peace. The problem with him is, that he betrays the Horde, his own people, in favour of the Alliance ,himself and "peace". On top of his spinelessness and scheming mentioned above.

[Shampro]

Baine is awful and has been for years upon years. Either he whines and whines, and does nothing, waits until someone else does something, so he tags along, or is an Alliance bootlicker. He's more distrought about an member of the opossition being risen than his people. He's terrible.

Worst thing that happened to the Tauren was Cairne being axed for this guy.

[Claymore]

I gotta say... the VA is absolutely top-notch. I with they would just make Baine a little more brutal. Have him respect the command structure, but talk shit to Sylvanas when it's "just the leaders talking", maybe openly threatening to leave the Horde is she continues acting dishonorably, or even hinting that he may forcibly remove the mantle of Warchief. Make him seem truly POWERFUL, not "kind and wise". He shouldn't be Cairne 2.0, he should embrace a slightly more warrior-like stance on things. It's fine for him to be pragmatic, and seek out peaceful resolutions where possible, but be willing to throw-down when push comes to shove. Hell, even Cairne was willing to challenge Garrosh, and even backhanded him on he freshly-tattooed jaw like he was some kind of little bitch.

I still want to believe Cairne has potential. Blizzard needs to get away from these extremes, that characters either have to be "warmongers" or "completely passive and emasculated".

[Arrashi]

I gotta say... the VA is absolutely top-notch. I with they would just make Baine a little more brutal. Have him respect the command structure, but talk shit to Sylvanas when it's "just the leaders talking", maybe openly threatening to leave the Horde is she continues acting dishonorably, or even hinting that he may forcibly remove the mantle of Warchief. Make him seem truly POWERFUL, not "kind and wise". He shouldn't be Cairne 2.0, he should embrace a slightly more warrior-like stance on things. It's fine for him to be pragmatic, and seek out peaceful resolutions where possible, but be willing to throw-down when push comes to shove. Hell, even Cairne was willing to challenge Garrosh, and even backhanded him on he freshly-tattooed jaw like he was some kind of little bitch.

I still want to believe Cairne has potential. Blizzard needs to get away from these extremes, that characters either have to be "warmongers" or "completely passive and emasculated".

The problem is that he isn't even cairne 2.0.

He feels like this weird character that is meant to serve "some" purpose its just that writers have no idea how. And all he ends up being is unlikeable human asslicker.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Saurfang has been Horde longer than you have, I back his understanding of what the Horde is over yours.

However it's nice to hear Baine doing something, even if it's just what Saurfang's doing. He's not at a feast, I'll take it.

[Shampro]

Saurfang has been Horde longer than you have, I back his understanding of what the Horde is over yours.

What in the name of...what does this even mean? You realise Saurfang doesn't exist right?

[AwkwardSquirtle]

What in the name of...what does this even mean? You realise Saurfang doesn't exist right?

:O He's not? /s

My point is that he's been horde since the beginning. If any character gets to define what the horde is, Saurfang is the best positioned to do it. Blizzard's explanation>some guy with a jaina avatar.

[Wildberry]

I gotta say... the VA is absolutely top-notch. I with they would just make Baine a little more brutal. Have him respect the command structure, but talk shit to Sylvanas when it's "just the leaders talking", maybe openly threatening to leave the Horde is she continues acting dishonorably, or even hinting that he may forcibly remove the mantle of Warchief. Make him seem truly POWERFUL, not "kind and wise". He shouldn't be Cairne 2.0, he should embrace a slightly more warrior-like stance on things. It's fine for him to be pragmatic, and seek out peaceful resolutions where possible, but be willing to throw-down when push comes to shove. Hell, even Cairne was willing to challenge Garrosh, and even backhanded him on he freshly-tattooed jaw like he was some kind of little bitch.

I still want to believe Cairne has potential. Blizzard needs to get away from these extremes, that characters either have to be "warmongers" or "completely passive and emasculated".

So basically make Baine be more aggressive against Horde members who are mean to the Alliance? That's going to go over well.

[Arrashi]

:O He's not? /s

My point is that he's been horde since the beginning. If any character gets to define what the horde is, Saurfang is the best positioned to do it. Blizzard's explanation>some guy with a jaina avatar.

Given his tendency to betray warchiefs only to fall into depression, i wouldn't trust his judgement too much.

- - - Updated - - -

So basically make Baine be more aggressive against Horde members who are mean to the Alliance? That's going to go over well.

"Why won't you just serve the boiking !?!!? WHY ???"

[Aeula]

His character is being an Alliance shill and potential puppet ruler on their behalf if Blizzard goes the rout I fear they’re going. (SoO 2.0, Alliance Victory, Puppet ruler implemented to keep the Horde in ‘check’ via Baine).

For a faction war expansion they’re really trying to do everything in their power to cripple Horde pride.

[Wildberry]

"Why won't you just serve the boiking !?!!? WHY ???"

Baine Bloodhoof
<Herald of the Boiking>

I cannot wait.

[Ahrean]

For a faction war expansion they’re really trying to do everything in their power to cripple Horde pride.

Fucken. This.

At this point, I have no idea what will become of the Horde post-BfA. Much as I want Sylvanas gone, they've killed off or narratively destroyed most viable successors to the Warchief position.