Spoilers 8.1 Shaw

[Super Dickmann]

I like how we've bitched for like a year now about how the Alliance is too good but the second they show a hint of unironically morally grey behaviour people flip their shit. Let Shaw do it, hell, do far more with it. The Alliance need this and more.

[vertigo12]

Maybe it wasnt Dreadlord Shaw who fed Wrynn false information that lead to the total catastrophe on the Broken Shore.
Maybe he really wants to see the world burn. Or, wait for it... is corrupted by the old gods :O

Really good idea btw! Lets help the people who want to release an experimential old god! What could go wrong. And if he doesnt know what is their purpose, its still on him for trying to support a group he doesnt know anything about, just because they are enemy of his enemy.

He might be in league with Twilight Father and Druid of the Flames founder.

[Thage]

The Horde doesn’t care about holding the higher moral ground

Except those posters who do, and the ones who struggle and strive to equate the two factions' moral standing by bringing up shitty things the Alliance did that still don't approach the Horde's current checklist, and the devs who keep struggling to push a 'morally gray' narrative by having their cake and eating it, too.

It's almost like you don't speak for the whole faction. here, lemme fix your post:

I don't care about holding the higher moral ground

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I like how we've bitched for like a year now about how the Alliance is too good but the second they show a hint of unironically morally grey behaviour people flip their shit. Let Shaw do it, hell, do far more with it. The Alliance need this and more.

Haven't you heard? If the Alliance exists to do more than play reactionary second-fiddle to the Horde's virile prowess, it's bad writing!

And Shaw's actions aren't even that grey when push comes to shove. Arming the enemy of my enemy means fewer lives lost on my side, it's literally the same reason the Alliance backed the Darkspear Rebellion (how short memories on Azeroth must be...).

[Super Dickmann]

Haven't you heard? If the Alliance exists to do more than play reactionary second-fiddle to the Horde's virile prowess, it's bad writing!

And Shaw's actions aren't even that grey when push comes to shove. Arming the enemy of my enemy means fewer lives lost on my side, it's literally the same reason the Alliance backed the Darkspear Rebellion (how short memories on Azeroth must be...).

It boggles the mind. And it's morally grey in the sense that they're still helping an unquestionably evil party. It's a sensible move that's beneficial and has few downsides now that G'huun is dead, but it's still not something say, Anduin would ever do. Anyone claiming it's meant to equal the Horde is completely out of touch. The aim isn't to equalize Horde and Alliance morally, the Horde has gone way too far in that regard, it's that the Alliance should be able to push back without a million asterisks about how somehow reprisal makes them the same as the enemy.

Am I out of touch? Is Blanduin's Alliance what people actually want?

[Goldielocks]

Am I out of touch? Is Blanduin's Alliance what people actually want?

What I've noticed is that people who take this game too seriously are those who want a squeaky clean alliance, probably because they attribute it to real life or something. It's like they want to live on Azeroth.

Meanwhile, us normal people want more interesting storylines because we know it's a fucking game.

[Dellis0991]

Found this jewel in wowhead.


"We have an extra shipment of weapons on hand. I suggest we distribute them among the blood trolls. The enemy of our enemy, after all...

That should give the Horde a nasty surprise. And if the blood trolls accidentally hurt themselves... Well, it's a win-win."

https://www.wowhead.com/news=287647/...-over-spoilers

Glad Blizzard is actually trying to push the "morally grey" thing, the alliance can't talk about their high ground anymore after this. Also I love this because it's shows another flaw of Anduin he is naive enough to trust his advisors and militar forces at every word, heck wouldn't be surprised if Genn/Tyrande or the dark iron butchers a horde village and lied to him: lol don't worry we didn't kill civilians or childrens wink wink

Its Shaw......he a rogue....rogues fight dirty....they do horrid shit, they steal, assassinate, they lie. He's head of a group of covert operations and their job is to do dirty shit to the enemy. Anduin and co don't probably know the full specifics of all the things Shaw does to keep the ball rolling in the Alliances favor. Genn wouldn't kill innocents but I bet Tyrande and Moira would. By the way the Alliance has big nasty warlock cult and SI:7...they are frowned upon but they get shit done.

[Thage]

It boggles the mind. And it's morally grey in the sense that they're still helping an unquestionably evil party. It's a sensible move that's beneficial and has few downsides now that G'huun is dead, but it's still not something say, Anduin would ever do. Anyone claiming it's meant to equal the Horde is completely out of touch. The aim isn't to equalize Horde and Alliance morally, the Horde has gone way too far in that regard, it's that the Alliance should be able to push back without a million asterisks about how somehow reprisal makes them the same as the enemy.

Am I out of touch? Is Blanduin's Alliance what people actually want?

I like Anduin's Alliance, but at the same time I like that there are actors within (Tyrande and Shaw, for example) who will fight dirty when the enemy discards all sense of honor. I like that generally-speaking, characters like Genn and Jaina are able to emotionally heal while still taking absolutely no shit from the Horde. That's the sort of moral complexity--good men and women who nonetheless understand that saints don't live long in the shadows--the game needs, not Rob Liefeld's greatest hits on eternal remix.

[Maljinwo]

No idea what Alliance could do to be at least on par with the Horde and it's crimes commited.

Storm into Orgrimmar's orphanage, kill their youngest. Probably kill them and raise them as servants of the Void.
Also burning Thunder Bluff

[Goldielocks]

Maybe some people find parallels to real life in games interesting? Maybe some people like role playing as altruistic in a game? Maybe, just maybe - people have different tastes? God forbid someone enjoy something you don't though right?

Role playing is exactly what I'm criticizing here lol

[Irian]

I mean to be fair, the blood trolls don't really have the world-ending threat they used to have. Now they're just bloodthirsty psychopaths who worship a dead creature.
The Horde is allying with Ashvane it seems, who is an actual genuine threat to both factions. I'm sure that can only end well.

It just seems like the Alliance is doing a "turnabout's fair play" move, killing two birds with one stone. The blood trolls can't conceivably win and each one either side kills is just one less they have to deal with. It's actually pretty smart, which seems rare for the Alliance this expansion, it seems.

[NutellaCrepe]

Found this jewel in wowhead.


"We have an extra shipment of weapons on hand. I suggest we distribute them among the blood trolls. The enemy of our enemy, after all...

That should give the Horde a nasty surprise. And if the blood trolls accidentally hurt themselves... Well, it's a win-win."

https://www.wowhead.com/news=287647/...-over-spoilers

Glad Blizzard is actually trying to push the "morally grey" thing, the alliance can't talk about their high ground anymore after this. Also I love this because it's shows another flaw of Anduin he is naive enough to trust his advisors and militar forces at every word, heck wouldn't be surprised if Genn/Tyrande or the dark iron butchers a horde village and lied to him: lol don't worry we didn't kill civilians or childrens wink wink

Idk if you played the alliance campaign, but you try to actively recruit the blood trolls as allies against the horde.

Not sure how assisting 2 enemies kill each other is "morally grey" (aka unethical) or "not taking the high ground." It's basic logic and tactics.

[Goldielocks]

Okay. I'm not a roleplayer but you must be no more in 12 years old if you think there is anything wrong with people wanting to get immersed in their hobby. For many, many people roleplay is the fun of the game for them. Want to be any more narrow minded?

Hey man if you're not a RPer you don't need to white knight their cringe I'm sure someone will come.

[Theoris]

They also gave weapons to the Grimtotem in Cata. I can't recall if it came back to bite them in the ass, though.

[Super Dickmann]

I like Anduin's Alliance, but at the same time I like that there are actors within (Tyrande and Shaw, for example) who will fight dirty when the enemy discards all sense of honor. I like that generally-speaking, characters like Genn and Jaina are able to emotionally heal while still taking absolutely no shit from the Horde. That's the sort of moral complexity--good men and women who nonetheless understand that saints don't live long in the shadows--the game needs, not Rob Liefeld's greatest hits on eternal remix.

I dislike Anduin's Alliance, but it's not necessarily because of Anduin himself but his supporting cast. The reason Anduin is such an insufferable character to me is that he never struggles convincing his subjects, each of which much older and having suffered much, much more from the Horde that the most moderate means must be applied. Nor does he face trouble from the populace. Unlike you, I deeply dislike Genn's turn or that Jaina and Katherine blame Daelin at the end, despite all that's happened, even if I genuinely like how Jaina's bit was executed and I enjoy her at the moment. Perfect storybook heroes don't work because the other side must be cartoon villains, and while I'm okay with being a cartoon villain in a game, it doesn't gel if I know for a fact I'll always fail. Have the Alliance be the unquestionably more moral side with a visionary idealist at the helm, but have Anduin actually struggle to keep his people together to his more nice and constructive approach given all they've gone through.

@Goldielocks

Pretty much. The Alliance as is is really dull precisely because it has zero internal struggle or difficulty and its decision to always take the highground has zero adverse consequences or dissent from its people.

[iamthedevil]

Alliance has gone full USA.

[Seylene]

Are we certain we actually got the Dreadlord? Shaw and SI:7 in general just seem utterly incompetent. This is like straight out of Afghanistan style stupid.

[Mirn]

The assumption here being that the Alliance will ever be required to acknowledge and deal with anything evil on their side. Remember Taurajo? Yeah, Baine was just like "Kay, s'fine." and that was that.

[baskev]

Found this jewel in wowhead.


"We have an extra shipment of weapons on hand. I suggest we distribute them among the blood trolls. The enemy of our enemy, after all...

That should give the Horde a nasty surprise. And if the blood trolls accidentally hurt themselves... Well, it's a win-win."

https://www.wowhead.com/news=287647/...-over-spoilers

Glad Blizzard is actually trying to push the "morally grey" thing, the alliance can't talk about their high ground anymore after this. Also I love this because it's shows another flaw of Anduin he is naive enough to trust his advisors and militar forces at every word, heck wouldn't be surprised if Genn/Tyrande or the dark iron butchers a horde village and lied to him: lol don't worry we didn't kill civilians or childrens wink wink

....you for real....this is nothing compared against darkshore in 8.1 ...and btw...Horde started this. And we have yet to respond in kind.

[bardicbass616]

I don't think the OP was trying to say the Horde and Alliance are equal in atrocities, just that the Alliance can't call themselves completely "good" anymore.

[Deleted]

Idk if you played the alliance campaign, but you try to actively recruit the blood trolls as allies against the horde.

Not sure how assisting 2 enemies kill each other is "morally grey" (aka unethical) or "not taking the high ground." It's basic logic and tactics.

No you don't try and recruit them. One of the commanders goes nuts and joins them, but when you try and investigate you get sent to the sacrificial pits with the rest of the soldiers she sent them. Then you proceed to kill a bunch of the Bloodtrolls and her.

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I don't think the OP was trying to say the Horde and Alliance are equal in atrocities, just that the Alliance can't call themselves completely "good" anymore.

But really they never could. They may be more on the 'good' side in general and their 'bad' side has been more in the background than the Horde's, but it was always there.