Can anyone explain how RnG has materially gotten worse since Classic?

[Charge me Doctor]

I didn't say this specifically in my post because I was responding without having read all of the thread but the comments about the death of BiS are spot-on and something to think about. I'm not really in that game any longer so it's a bit outside of my current thoughts about the game. But the vagueness that now surrounds Best-in-Slot along with less deterministic loot could easily combine into something that would be really easy to dislike. I've been there though with the BiS-obsessed and it's not always fun. There's a lot to love about being super-casual and being away from them and off the gear treadmill is a part of that.

Since the release of naxx it became clear that "BiS" lists aren't important and are really heavy personal goals that players put for themselves, but the problem is - it comes from raiding, and to raid you need other players who also compete against you to get said gear. The only "BiS" list player should care about (and by that i mean that it's not a personal goal that you put for your enjoyment, but a requirement if you want to be competitive and, you know, valuable) is a pre-raid BiS list.

Some people here compare BiS list to be some sort of an end goal of the game, which wasn't the case at all. It was a personal goal, you still can make your own goals for the game.

[Magical Mudcrab]

There were cases when "BiS" item was worse if you break your ZG 2 set (especially for healers), so you had to obtain 2 "BiS" items in your bags first before they became "BiS".

Yeah, but that's not really the point. It's that we initially had a clear, defined progression where the only RNG is the item drop itself. Now the item drop is the most likely roll, with warforging and titanforging makes it significantly less likely that you'll get your best version of an item. It's a system that artificially extends playtime by making the best rewards decoupled from skill and entirely reliant on RNG that doesn't care if you're a mythic, heroic, or normal raider, or LFR player. Moreover, the system doesn't even incentivize more play, it just demotivates anyone who cares about character progression in the least.

[towelliee]

Game is harder than it was in classic. The gear grind helps a lot in mythic.

Classic wasn't super gear intensive, I mean it didn't hurt but it was more about wrangling 40 people who weren't idiots, and when you got to Naxx, poaching Warriors from other guilds.

This pretty much. Like FFXIV Tanks pretty much needed a certain Health Pool to survive the melee swings of bosses. Which is why any and every piece they could use to better themselves was given to them early on. Tank poaching was such a big thing luckily our office was basically our tanks so we never split up until TBC

[Craaazyyy]

BIS doesn't mean jack till you got it, until then your still dealing with the list.
Vanilla BOE epic is balanced against the Legion legendary as something that put you ahead of the game.
Random trash item RNG in raids/dungeons is a basic thing so I skipped it in both.
Weapon skill matters since most players didn't level skills for weapons they didn't normally use.

but its not about what most players did or didnt do.. its about RNG in general

you cant count anything that players didnt do as rng LOL what kind of logic is this

again BFA/Legion have BOE epics as well.. and Legion had legendaries on top of that

not just trash items

also i personally am not even talking about vanilla gearing system, but what came after it really, improved version.. well until its started to become worse and worse again pretty much

[Emerald Archer]

Yeah, so BiS is no more. Time for people to realize that then.

Just to rephrase it, you got BiS items, but those BiS items can be better. I see the former as BiS, because seeing it in any other way is being delusional, because you'll never get there.

The issue is that it's a never-ending treadmill. Even for those who spend by far the most time and effort, clear the most content, there isn't a point where even for a few weeks before new content that you're "done"

That is less enjoyable than BC and Wotlk loot systems for sure.

Just because it's not possible to get BiS, doesn't mean that it's no longer bis so you can find a new meaning for it. It's just a BiS you can't ever achieve, so you get as close to it as you can. Strange to call people delusional for using the correct definition. I think you could call people delusional if they actually expected to GET full bis, sure. But knowing bis is 395 + sockets and knowing it's not possible to get? That's far from delusional.

Best in slot is best in slot, not "good enough"

[Doffen]

The issue is that it's a never-ending treadmill. Even for those who spend by far the most time and effort, clear the most content, there isn't a point where even for a few weeks before new content that you're "done"

That is less enjoyable than BC and Wotlk loot systems for sure.

Just because it's not possible to get BiS, doesn't mean that it's no longer bis so you can find a new meaning for it. It's just a BiS you can't ever achieve, so you get as close to it as you can. Strange to call people delusional for using the correct definition. I think you could call people delusional if they actually expected to GET full bis, sure. But knowing bis is 395 + sockets and knowing it's not possible to get? That's far from delusional.

Best in slot is best in slot, not "good enough"

Yeah yeah, I could have explained that better. What I mean is that people that expect to get BiS, in its definition, would be delusional, not the actual expression BiS. Because getting BiS nowadays, that's hard :P

But yeah, I truly understand top raiders frustration when it comes to gear and stuff like that. Back in the day it was easier to get BiS, but harder to get gear, if that's a good way to say it.

I am using BiS as in "that trinket is BiS for me" for example, because I then compare it to other trinkets, at same ilvl. Same with other gear. Sure it's not BiS in the correct term, you still have "that item is the best one I can get, I hope I get it max TF because then it would be truly a BiS item". I find it surreal to approach the gearing that way as it is now, so I compare items ilvl to ilvl.

The difference from Legion though, is that we at least got some form of BiS in azerite armor. Some specs are suffering of having their BiS traits outside the raid, which is completely rng as of now, and I understand that sucks. Same as my mage BiS trinkets, are from World Bosses. Sure I can target it, but it has to be the correct week :P

[Thunderball]

bis items weren't exclusive to rauds in classic. I vividly remember having to run sunken temple with our druid for his bis (!) shoulders.

I dont remember R13 shoulders dropping in ST. Maybe it's just me.

[rohoz]

I see threads
I heard guild mates complain
Over
And over

But I don’t understand why they do it. In classic loot had horrible drop chances, with some guilds going 6+ months without getting a right for their left or a left for their right.

At worse it hasn’t gotten better but it certainly isn’t worse.

Am I missing something or am I right to conclude that WoW, 14 years later, is still full of people whining about dice rolls in a Dungeons and Dragons-esque game?

It hasn't.

You are right to make your conclusion.

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I dont remember R13 shoulders dropping in ST. Maybe it's just me.

very likely that the shoulders were an atal'ai shoulders of nature resistance (maybe stamina) from the random troll bosses in ST. Those could roll with an absurd amount of stats.

[Jahrastafari]

MMORPG vs MMORNG

[rohoz]

MMORPG vs MMORNG

Oh, did you get your felstriker/headmaster's charge/blackblade of shahram/treant's bane on the first go, too? Nice.

[chazus]

Great points, that's valid and i hadn't thought that many people would be focussing on Min/Max. I know its relevant but perhaps it is more critical to people than i would have thought.

Part of it is that 'targetting' gear has gotten more and more difficult each expansion. Some people call this 'diablofication'.

Back in Vanilla, if you could get into X instance, you just had to wait to get your hands on Y gear from Z boss. That's it. There were 13 slots to fill x all those bosses/items. But that was pretty much it. There might be two items, depending on class/spec, but that was it. You had goals. Specific goals.

Now its.... different traits. Different stats. Spec designs. many items of similar ilvl, items that drop from different places. Then you start getting in war/titan forging. Different raid difficulties. Someone made a post earlier about a 1/100 chance of getting an item you wanted before, whereas now it's like 1/100,000 or something. .....x13 item slots.

[rohoz]

Part of it is that 'targetting' gear has gotten more and more difficult each expansion. Some people call this 'diablofication'.

Back in Vanilla, if you could get into X instance, you just had to wait to get your hands on Y gear from Z boss. That's it. There were 13 slots to fill x all those bosses/items. But that was pretty much it. There might be two items, depending on class/spec, but that was it. You had goals. Specific goals.

Now its.... different traits. Different stats. Spec designs. many items of similar ilvl, items that drop from different places. Then you start getting in war/titan forging. Different raid difficulties. Someone made a post earlier about a 1/100 chance of getting an item you wanted before, whereas now it's like 1/100,000 or something. .....x13 item slots.

You're wrong though. If I want a 370 item, I run the place that drops the item on +10. It's no different than spamming maraudon hoping that meshlok the harvester spawned to get the NR helmet.

[Malvanis]

I hate the current system because in cata I had a bunch of geared toons and didnt feel lik i lost anything if i came to a guild run on my alt. Now every drop MIGHT be an upgrade so im essentially forced to raid every week until the next raid on my main. It fucking sucks.

[Deleted]

dragonslayers are the most vocal group and they are angry because someone titanforged higher then their baseline heroic raid ilvl

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

I see threads
I heard guild mates complain
Over
And over

But I don’t understand why they do it. In classic loot had horrible drop chances, with some guilds going 6+ months without getting a right for their left or a left for their right.

At worse it hasn’t gotten better but it certainly isn’t worse.

Am I missing something or am I right to conclude that WoW, 14 years later, is still full of people whining about dice rolls in a Dungeons and Dragons-esque game?

Rng is better than in classic you could farm for years and never see certain items.

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Game is harder than it was in classic. The gear grind helps a lot in mythic.

Classic wasn't super gear intensive, I mean it didn't hurt but it was more about wrangling 40 people who weren't idiots, and when you got to Naxx, poaching Warriors from other guilds.

It was thought 2 drops per person and didn't some boss require resistance gear. Also world buffs and pots.

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It's easier to blame rng than admit you're not good enough. It's ego problem. People see guilds finishing mythic in few weeks and can't accept that they're still struggling on 3rd boss, or even hc. Don't worry, rng is here to take the blame. "It's the system screwing little me and preventing me to be up there." If the rng is that big of a deal, you wouldn't see the same guilds in top10 over and over.

People need to understand that it's really ok if your progress, farm and having BiS gear takes longer. Race is only meant for a handful of guilds who really go the full distance to get there.

It doesn't take longer though it just impossible to get based on factors that don't account for skill at all like luck.

[Uurdz]

I played Vanilla and I am going to tell you how.

Firstly, Lockouts. All content outside of raids had no lockout. You could run UBRS as many times as you wanted to get the gear that you wanted. Standard that dropped would have 2-3 contenders and quite achievable.

Crafting was an integral part of gearing which had little rng involved.

Pretty much all guilds used a DKP style of system, which greatly reduced RNG. Also raid tiers lasted much longer. giving a long time for drops.

World firsts weren't really cared about

DPS was far less important overall. Threat and other mechanics took higher priorities.

You got loot less often, but felt good when you did. Now you get heaps of loot, but its mostly trash.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think vanilla is the best system we have ever had, but the current one is pretty shitty.

Lockouts = You couldn't get gear of a equiv value to raiding by doing dungeons. Gear is easier to get, this isn't more RnG dependant. Getting the maximum best item from a dungeon however, is.

DKP did not reduce RnG. DKP was about loot distribution of gear that DID drop. You might have max DKP in your guild but if your Might Helm doesnt drop from Onyxia, but all mages + anyone with a Mage Alt might have their Netherwind Helms.

Unsure what you mean about World first not being cared about. Firstly, thats not true. Secondly, it has no relevance to the impact of RnG changes.

DPS again isn't relevant to RnG or at least you've not made any argument for why it is.

The increased drop rate of loot does not mean it is trash, it means you're getting good gear far easier than in Classic. This is again not about RnG as you're getting MORE loot. It will be an upgrade less often due to this.

Understand your opinion but you've not made a robust argument for why this system is worse from an RnG perspective.

[rohoz]

Lockouts = You couldn't get gear of a equiv value to raiding by doing dungeons. Gear is easier to get, this isn't more RnG dependant. Getting the maximum best item from a dungeon however, is.

DKP did not reduce RnG. DKP was about loot distribution of gear that DID drop. You might have max DKP in your guild but if your Might Helm doesnt drop from Onyxia, but all mages + anyone with a Mage Alt might have their Netherwind Helms.

Unsure what you mean about World first not being cared about. Firstly, thats not true. Secondly, it has no relevance to the impact of RnG changes.

DPS again isn't relevant to RnG or at least you've not made any argument for why it is.

The increased drop rate of loot does not mean it is trash, it means you're getting good gear far easier than in Classic. This is again not about RnG as you're getting MORE loot. It will be an upgrade less often due to this.

Understand your opinion but you've not made a robust argument for why this system is worse from an RnG perspective.

Normal dungeons still don't have lockouts, either. Neither do M+
*shrug emoji*

[Thetruth1400]

It's RNG, and then there's RNG inside that RNG, and RNG inside that RNG. That's how it got worse... In Vanilla shit dropped one way, that was it, there was only one version of that item. There was no warforge or titanforge crap, random gem slots, there was no getting "rewarded" with AP instead of loot... What we have right now is a system of RNG stacked on top of RNG to create a neverending treadmill for loot, with no goal at the end.

This is pretty much spot on.

In Vanilla - mid WotLK, you got gear one way; by killing bosses.

Later on in WotLK on until today, they have added in more and more ways to get gear, change that gear, and ways upon ways of that gear being better to the point we're now sitting on several gear potentials, so there is never and end.
- Got that piece of gear from normal raid? Well, you're not done, you've got two more difficulties of raids to do for the best version of that gear.
- Oh you now got that same piece from Mythic raid? Yeah, get back in there, it's still not the best because it didn't WF/TF or have a gem slot.
- Oh, what's that, you were looking for a specific trait on that piece of gear? Sorry, it's random chance so keep looking and maybe you'll get it next time!
- Oh, you have literally the best item now? Sorry, you can't unlock all the traits on it unless you get out there and farm AP to unlock them all!

That's the insanity we've got now and it never feels rewarding. Blizzard needs to go back to the old ways with a clear progression to gear: world, dungeons, heroic dungeons, raid 1, raid 2, raid 3, etc.

With that, they also need to cut back to 1 or 2 raid difficulties max, and allow for the players to progress at their own pace, not at the pace Blizzard dictates. If you "fall behind" in terms of cutting edge progression, that needs to be okay again; you can group with the other people who are moving at your pace, ALL of the content should matter and be relevant to do, not just the max level cutting edge mattering.

[Deleted]

Becouse gear wasnt reason why most people raided back in vannila. Getting epipc was freaking awesome yeah but everyone mainly wanted to see content and stand in front of Ragnaros or Kel Thuzad. This drive to see content disapeared in moment blizzard made content accessible to casual audience so all we left it was gear. That also disapeared as there is no longer any chance you can build up bis gear anymore thanks to amounth of RNG it has.

[HuxNeva]

Best in slot. BEST. It's not a debatable definition. It is the best possible item for each slot, not being delusional, just knowing what the definition is. How can an item be bis, when you can replace it with another item?

For any level of W/TF you can generate a BiS list. Sites like AskMrRobot makes this process trivial(not saying AskMrRobot has the best simms, but that is another thing), you can do it with simmcraft/raidbots as well but it will be more involved.

(1) Assume that every +5 or socket or tertiary you add increases your farm time x3

(2) Pick a farming level/target you are comfortable with. I would suggest not going above +15, but to each their own.

(3) enter the parameters in the simm site of your choice, and out rolls your list

(4) go farm and check off the boxes

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Yeah, but that's not really the point. It's that we initially had a clear, defined progression where the only RNG is the item drop itself.

So all it takes to satisfy you is giving each +5 +10 etc its own name and color model variation and you are satisfied?

Sword of Looting ilvl205 drop chance 10%
Sword of Looting (warforged) ilvl210 drop chance 3% TRIGGERED!

Sword of Looting ilvl205 drop chance 10%
Sword of the Spoils ilvl210 drop chance 3% All is well here?