[PTR] Alliance and Horde Darkshore questline SPOILERS

[TickTickTick]

Also Blizz said several times that there is no mind control involved with the Forsaken.

They also said pre-BfA event wouldnt end in the way everyone expected it to end. But it did. Dont believe what Blizz is saying and especially not what they said years ago. Most of the new lore isnt actually new, just a retcon of old one.

[Hubbl3]

They also said pre-BfA event wouldnt end in the way everyone expected it to end. But it did. Dont believe what Blizz is saying and especially not what they said years ago. Most of the new lore isnt actually new, just a retcon of old one.

You can ignore official lore as you see fit. It makes you look stupid but you can do that. As of today there is no retcon and there is no mind control involved with Forsaken.

[gcsmith]

Can't agree. I have seen similar plots before in the shows I watch, so it makes perfect sense to me. Here we have the big baddie (the ne), who is wicked strong. She is fanatical in her beliefs that, if her strength begins to fail her, her goddess will save her. After all, this is what she was lead to believe her entire life. Hundreds of years of reinforcement in this belief did little to hinder this though. Then here comes the horde challenging that thought. Trying to show her just how wrong she is, but she wont listen.

In common fashion, she must be beaten, brought down to a weakened state where she cannot deny that she isn't as strong as she was. Shown that her beliefs are fanatical in nature and hold no true bearing. Then she would be willing to accept what happened and turn on those who had lied to her all that time and used her for their own will.

Now, lets look at it from another point of view. We already know she goes overboard with how she believes in elune. Would it then not make sense for her to dive headfirst into revenge? We can only assume she feels and thinks just like Delaryn. That as she die, she feels anger, betrayal, and pain for her lost kin. Take how the time frame in how quickly the death and being brought back takes place. That is literally the only hang up anyone has with this story. "It happened so quickly". So? If anything, that means she would be More angry, More ready to turn on Elune, especially as she sees Tyrande doing nothing, yet again, to stop her dark rebirth.

In either scenario, the plot makes sense and people are just going "whut" at how quickly it unfolds. If she was dead for a week or so, no one would bat an eye.

I hope we get a bit where Sira tells Tyrande that "open your eyes, high priestess, Elune doesn't care, she turned a blind eye."

"Really?" Tyrande raises a hand and a beam of dark moonlight pierces through Siras chest and knocks her to the ground. "Does that feel like she doesn't exist..."

[Hubbl3]

I hope we get a bit where Sira tells Tyrande that "open your eyes, high priestess, Elune doesn't care, she turned a blind eye."

"Really?" Tyrande raises a hand and a beam of dark moonlight pierces through Siras chest and knocks her to the ground. "Does that feel like she doesn't exist..."

Proving that Elune can only destroy and not protect. :P

[gcsmith]

You can ignore official lore as you see fit. It makes you look stupid but you can do that. As of today there is no retcon and there is no mind control involved with Forsaken.

When the official lore has no explanation, and we see characters saying "we are forsaken" when their last act was was saying they pitied Sylvannas... yeah that makes no sense...

[Frontenac]

What is even more stupid about all this is that the fact that Tyrande has been ascended into the Night Warrior proves that Elune has not abandoned her people afterall. Delaryn and Sira should rejoin the Night Elves after that.

Therefore, there are three choices:

- the writers are inept;
- Forsaken do not really have free will when they are raised, contrary to what Sylvanas says;
- something else is happening, like Tauror said. Death or something else is the one pulling the threads, and it will blow up at our faces one day.

The first one happened before. I won't talk about it because it could derail the thread... The second one is possible and predictible. The third one offers a plot twist and probably the apparition of a new enemy. Therefore, even if all three are probable, I hope the third one will be true.

[Varitok]

Damn, I actually miss Metzen (I like him as a person but his writing was okay). Even he didn't do shit like that. It seems the last semblance of good alliance writing and just good writing in general for both sides left with him.

This legitimately is the worst writing i've seen in the game. It just makes no logical sense at all. They just want to give the Horde a version of Night Elves since the Alliance got a version of Blood Elves

[Hubbl3]

When the official lore has no explanation, and we see characters saying "we are forsaken" when their last act was was saying they pitied Sylvannas... yeah that makes no sense...

So it makes more sense that Sylvanas is MCing everyone without it ever being explained or mentioned in any form of Warcraft-related material? Sure!

I mean even the LK has a neat helmet which was specifically crafted for this very purpose and even that device failed, releasing the stronger willed undeads into freedom.

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What is even more stupid about all this is that the fact that Tyrande has been ascended into the Night Warrior proves that Elune has not abandoned her people afterall. Delaryn and Sira should rejoin the Night Elves after that.

Getting revenge is not the same thing as preventing the bad thing from happening in the first place, you know? The dead Nelves will still be dead and Teldrassil will still be burned, no matter how many Avatars of Vengeance are around or how many Horde gets slaughtered.

[omeomorfismo]

Please tell me why would the undead who have been risen by the val'kyr pre-cata be mind-controlled and the ones who have been risen by the val'kyr post-cata would not? Do the val'kyr decide about it? "Hey, we are raising them for Sylvanas now! Let them have their will!"

There are many quests where you do something for someone, and at the end it turns out they lied to you and you were just a tool. Maybe they are not mind controlled literally, but certainly have a big bias towards the forsaken/Sylvanas into their minds the moment they are risen.

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Not forever. The Forsaken decay, which is the whole plight of that faction. Sylvanas mentions it before Garrosh in Silverpine, then again during the quest leading to Stormheim. Val'kyr seem to be a temporal bandaid. But the quantity is limited, and there's again one less now.

why ask if you already know the answer

[TickTickTick]

You can ignore official lore as you see fit. It makes you look stupid but you can do that. As of today there is no retcon and there is no mind control involved with Forsaken.

Lmfao are you dense or what. Its not a matter of choosing to ignore or not ignore "official lore" (what is an unofficial lore btw?). Its about how the lore doesnt make sense anymore. Last time it made sense was during MoP. then everything became brain farts of people who, as it seems, are experimenting with how much random shit can they put in until explodes.

Who cares what they say when the characters in the lore make a 180 turn in a matter of seconds. Who cares what they say when you need to do mental gymnastics just to understand the lore istead of enjoying it from the very begining? Some people say the earth is flat, or that vaccinating kills people and infects them with autism, should i believe them because they say it? Will i be deemed "ignoring the fact" when i oppose it?

[Hitei]

Nobody intelligent ever credited blizzard with good writing, at least since WC3.

"Let this criminal out of jail."
"Malfurion told us to keep him here."
"But I want you to."
"I'm gonna need more than that."
"I'm just going to kill all of you and let him out myself."

[Hubbl3]

Lmfao are you dense or what. Its not a matter of choosing to ignore or not ignore "official lore" (what is an unofficial lore btw?). Its about how the lore doesnt make sense anymore. Last time it made sense was during MoP. then everything became brain farts of people who, as it seems, are experimenting with how much random shit can they put in until explodes.

Who cares what they say when the characters in the lore make a 180 turn in a matter of seconds. Who cares what they say when you need to do mental gymnastics just to understand the lore istead of enjoying it from the very begining? Some people say the earth is flat, or that vaccinating kills people and infects them with autism, should i believe them because they say it? Will i be deemed "ignoring the fact" when i oppose it?

Are you dense? How is Sylvanas supposed to mind control on the scale of the Lich King without any explanation? Just because lore A doesn't make sense doesn't mean that your lore B makes sense now. It's funny that you use anti vacs or flat earthers to support your "argument" when your entire argument is on the scale of "we cannot explain how X works, therefore there must be a god who makes it happen". It's even more funny when in fiction it doesn't matter which makes sense or what not because the writer is in total control of everything. That is all the "facts" we need to know. If WoW would make "sense" Sargeras would have won and we would no longer have a WoW.

Yes, Sylvanas is stronger than the Lich King, can mind control everyone without any effort or device or it even being mentioned by anyone but still gets betrayed constantly. Yes, that makes more thing than "undead go into frenzy after rezzing or are pissed at the living because they are no longer welcome or get attacked on sight". No, it's gotta be a deus ex machina.

[bowlink]

even if it isn't MC control what sylvanas is using. it still brain washing which is when you think about it is even worse. and as many have pointed out 180 face heel turn (and yes that how your suposed to use that term when you go from good to bad) in a matter of minutes is just bad writing. even if dararyn was dead for 2 months. sira wasn't so its still bad.

[Tripzzz]

So it makes more sense that Sylvanas is MCing everyone without it ever being explained or mentioned in any form of Warcraft-related material? Sure!

I mean even the LK has a neat helmet which was specifically crafted for this very purpose and even that device failed, releasing the stronger willed undeads into freedom.

It's explained on the PTR.

[bowlink]

It's explained on the PTR.

well if that doesn't scream Mind control i don't know what does.

[Arrashi]

Gallywix is actually hiding army of securitrons bellow Azshara. Game was rigged from the start.

"Ring a ding ding baby. I've got your back"

[Hubbl3]

well if that doesn't scream MC control is don't know what does.

What? No that doesn't scream mind control of Forsaken like the guy was claiming. He was specifically claiming that every Forsaken risen after Cata by Val'kyr is mind controlled.

[Dellis0991]

We have nothing left?!.....Are you fucking kidding me, the alliance would take you back in a heartbeat....

[Tripzzz]

What? No that doesn't scream mind control of Forsaken like the guy was claiming. He was specifically claiming that every Forsaken risen after Cata by Val'kyr is mind controlled.

Seems to me they were about to raise Tyrande and expecting her to become loyal? How does that make sense with "Forsaken free will is cornerstone"? I know that it's canon, it's still shoddy as fuck.

[Super Dickmann]

But they did have some amount of divine help both leading into and during the burning, It's not like their warriors and priests lost all ability before hand, it's the fact that elune didn't save the tree solely with divine intervention I guess.... she also has the best example elune's wrath standing right in front of her, and has most likely witnessed other "miracles" in the past so it's not even a lack of proof, more she witnessed death, something she most likely has done MANY times before and Elune has bailed them out many times before as well so...

Lastly like others have said It's one thing to turn on your God and maybe seek to dismantle the faith because you believe it to be false, it's another thing to have her turn on her people just kuz... and even more unbelievable still that she joins up at the drop of a hat with the people who did all this to her in the first place, you can't even say she now values Sylvanas as some higher intellect because at that point in the lore Sylvanas's own commander admits that the horde is lousing badly, they are already showing sines of splintering internally again, and the person running things only really cares for her self.

The thing is, as I've explained to others in this thread, Tyrande showing up empowered by the goddess now may well actually serve to improve the feelings of betrayal people like Sira might have. Their goddess did fuck all when their people were exterminated and Tyrande wasn't even present, but now Tyrande is the vessel of her revenge after the battle's basically already been lost. Elune has granted Tyrande protection enough to resist the val'kyr, as she does when Brynja tries to bind her, but she did nothing of the sort for the now undead night elves ensuring their souls are damned. These are again thing that wouldn't crop up to a fully rational mind, but for someone with as much massive trauma they'd be big sticking points, especially with how undeath numbs your positive feelings and buffs up negative ones.

On top of that, Elune hasn't actually bailed the night elves as a whole out all that often. As night elf fans themselves point out and as is a meme in the community ,the night elves have gone from one loss to another declining from a faction superior to both Horde and Alliance in WC3 to losing their ancestral homelands and being driven to near extinction in BFA. If their goddess cared that much, surely she would've stopped that, goes the narrative for the risen dark rangers.

Finally, Delaryn, from what we see, doesn't announce her loyalty or even attack Tyrande. She repeats what she thought about while dying and seeing Teldrassil go up in flames and then goes silent and catatonic after she's back in camp. Her story will clearly carry on from there and given how the narrative is, as you are pointing out, going in the direction of Sylvanas' defeat, it's clear that she'll in some way be involved in rebuffing her ideologically.

None of this is to say the motivation is amazing, it's shit and borderline ridiculous, but it has enough legs to stand on for non-characters like the risen rangers, who are clearly a skewed sample from how the Val'kyr browses for willing souls, or Sira, who has no personality traits to speak of.