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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Eh no, not really the case in Vanilla. There were a LOT of trash items, like Warrior gear with health per second.
    I was talking more in the context of a raid environment

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Malvanis View Post
    I hate the current system because in cata I had a bunch of geared toons and didnt feel lik i lost anything if i came to a guild run on my alt. Now every drop MIGHT be an upgrade so im essentially forced to raid every week until the next raid on my main. It fucking sucks.
    This as well. Both gear and (at least in Legion) AP means that any time spent on alts is potentially directly hurting your main, which feels bad.
    Tradushuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  3. #163
    Having a end goal is fine if you are still progressing but when you know you are at or really close to your end goal and your guild hit a brick wall, like what happen to me in Vanilla and TBC, it's really disheartening to know that gear cannot help you anymore.
    MMO-Champion, once the place to get WoW News, now the home of the haters and their clickbait and doomsaying threads

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Wada View Post
    In vanilla, the boss dropped 3-4 pieces you needed to distribute between 40. people. Considering no Shammy gear dropped when you were on Ally (or pally on horde).

    In legion, like 5 items drops from Mythic boss and you need to distribute that shit between 20 people.

    I think you can calculate the RNG chances of you getting the right items.
    How is Vanilla at all relevant? That was 12-14 years ago. The relevant comparison is to other recent expansions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zequill View Post
    Having a end goal is fine if you are still progressing but when you know you are at or really close to your end goal and your guild hit a brick wall, like what happen to me in Vanilla and TBC, it's really disheartening to know that gear cannot help you anymore.
    So then you have to either get better or accept that you're not good enough(and just do something else instead), gear shouldn't keep making up for that forever.
    Tradushuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    How is Vanilla at all relevant? That was 12-14 years ago. The relevant comparison is to other recent expansions.
    Compare it to Legion then. Or WoD? You feel WoD was better? MoP? And were they better because you could get BiS? Is Best in Slot what matters to you? Just curious.

    Every expansion is relevant though(or base game, vanilla). If someone says that Vanilla had the worst gearing-methods, then the other one says "but vanilla doesn't count" why would the latter be correct? When someone says it's worse to gear up now than ever, it's easy to say Vanilla, because lots of us think it was horrible back then. I would stretch it to TBC too, sure I loved how it was then, because I raided what most could not, but getting absolute BiS back in TBC was not very easy. This started to change in WotLK, with Naxxramas, when everyone could get BiS. Part of the raider-me was never the same, and like I posted earlier, that was when I started to care less about having the best. Because I was an elitist...
    Last edited by Doffen; 2018-10-07 at 12:35 PM.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    If people really see bis now as max tf with socket and leech, it's no wonder why people cry som much about it. What a terrible way to look at it. The whining finally make sense. Stop dreaming. If that's the way you look at it, then BiS is unreachable. Better chance to win the top prize in the lottery.

    BiS is base ilvl within your raiding skill(normal/hc/mythic etc) So your BiS in mythic Uldir will be 385.

    And yes, it's a lot easier to get BiS now than in both Vanilla and TBC. For non-delusional people that is.
    yep. and exactly that is the problem. not having a clear line, wether for balancing nor for ppls goals to reach, is a problem.

    lets do some deep dive here:

    1)
    ppl complain much about balance. they do it today, they did in classic. lets compare that situation a bit:

    in classic blizzard was unable to deliever good balance, because their class design and their knobs to tune classes were shit. but the encounters were very straight forward and simple designed. in comparrison, today we have perfectly fine tuneable classes with a lot of knobs and specific areas for aoe, st, cleave. if wow had these modern classes in the simple environment of classic, balance would be in a range of 1-2% difference. super balanced. but blizzard today, even when have this super tuneable/balanceable classes, design encounters with more niches, like aoe, st, cleave. and they design it to being harder, more different, mostly movement encounters, and and and. that complexity of encounters and that niches makes clean balancing, even with our modern perfect tunable classes, very hard.

    that said (now we come to the topic), on top of that above, they set up RNG. as you mentioned „BiS is a dream“. So, virtually, you have a wide range from pos and neg outliers to standard, on top of that. this kills any possible ground for balance.

    so, blizz on the one hand, have super balanceable classes, but on the other hand, they do all they can, via game design, to prevent that the game is ever truly balanced. because there is no balance in a world were 15% have absurd trinkets, ideal azerite traits, sockets and TF, 70% a relative standard mix, and 15% utterly shit gear. in modern, not very easy balanceable, encounters.

    this is confusing and makes not much sense.

    2)
    when we use point 1 as a ground platform on what players live, it will have an impact at their behaviour. this game is about gear. it is about raids and dungeons, and therefore it is about skada and recount. competition is a normal aspect in human beings.

    point 1 will give ppl a direction, how they act, what they assume, etc. and if it tells the ppl „there is no clear goal, no clear x to work towrads, but hey, you can maybe win the lottery“ they play the lottery instead they play the game. this „dream“ will bound ppl. for a while. but after that, they realize that playing lottery is a time waste. they set up high goals in their mind, that they dont reach. and then they became frustrated. and then they realize it is rinse and repeat. and then they stop playing.

    and the only reason for why ppl are so heavily fotm focused is, that they hope they can also beat the others (which are just more lucky in rng) when they play the best class. point 1 directly routes to that player base behaviour.

    having clear lines, with clear goals, knowing how much and what to invest, to reach what goals, is something ppl will make more happy over long term than playing the lottery. this is just not good design for a game like wow.

    so, long story short: balance and ingame happyness will never be reached, if you design the encounters and classes like they do these days, while having a so broad range of virtually possible RNG on top of it. that maybe will bound a few subs a while, but overall the game goes shit and ppl will leave.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2018-10-07 at 12:26 PM.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Compare it to Legion then. Or WoD? You feel WoD was better? MoP? And were they better because you could get BiS? Is Best in Slot what matters to you? Just curious.

    Every expansion is relevant though(or base game, vanilla). If someone says that Vanilla had the best gearing-methods, then the other one says "but vanilla doesn't count" why would the latter be correct? When someone says it's worse to gear up now than ever, it's easy to say Vanilla, because lots of us think it was horrible back then. I would stretch it to TBC too, sure I loved how it was then, because I raided what most could not, but getting absolute BiS back in TBC was not very easy. This started to change in WotLK, with Naxxramas, when everyone could get BiS. Part of the raider-me was never the same, and like I posted earlier, that was when I started to care less about having the best. Because I was an elitist...
    Except they're not saying Vanilla was better, their argument is "Vanilla was even worse, so titanforging is fine", which is absurd because we've had over a decade of possible improvement since then. And the peak of gearing in WoW was Wrath/Cata/T14, in my opinion. No titanforging or warforging, the boss dropped the item and that was it, and in quantities that weren't as much of a joke as Vanilla. You also got rewarded purely on the difficulty of the content you did, not winning extra RNG rolls past "did the item drop?". Basically in terms of "eras", my ranking for gearing systems would be: Wrath/Cata/T14 > rest of MoP/WoD > Legion/BfA. Not sure where I'd put Vanilla and TBC as I didn't play them, but most likely below MoP/WoD.
    Tradushuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    yep. and exactly that is the problem. not having a clear line, wether for balancing nor for ppls goals to reach, is a problem.

    lets do some deep dive here:

    1)
    ppl complain much about balance. they do it today, they did in classic. lets compare that situation a bit:

    in classic blizzard was unable to deliever good balance, because their class design and their knobs to tune classes were shit. but the encounters were very straight forward and simple designed. in comparrison, today we have perfectly fine tuneable classes with a lot of knobs and specific areas for aoe, st, cleave. if wow had these modern classes in the simple environment of classic, balance would be in a range of 1-2% difference. super balanced. but blizzard today, even when have this super tuneable/balanceable classes, design encounters with more niches, like aoe, st, cleave. and they design it to being harder, more different, mostly movement encounters, and and and. that complexity of encounters and that niches makes clean balancing, even with our modern perfect tunable classes, very hard.

    that said (now we come to the topic), on top of that above, they set up RNG. as you mentioned „BiS is a dream“. So, virtually, you have a wide range from pos and neg outliers to standard, on top of that. this kills any possible ground for balance.

    so, blizz on the one hand, have super balanceable classes, but on the other hand, they do all they can, via game design, to prevent that the game is ever truly balanced. because there is no balance in a world were 15% have absurd trinkets, ideal azerite traits, sockets and TF, 70% a relative standard mix, and 15% utterly shit gear. in modern, not very easy balanceable, encounters.

    this is confusing and makes not much sense.

    2)
    when we use point 1 as a ground platform on what players live, it will have an impact at their behaviour. this game is about gear. it is about raids and dungeons, and therefore it is about skada and recount. competition is a normal aspect in human beings.

    point 1 will give ppl a direction, how they act, what they assume, etc. and if it tells the ppl „there is no clear goal, no clear x to work towrads, but hey, you can maybe win the lottery“ they play the lottery instead they play the game. this „dream“ will bound ppl. for a while. but after that, they realize that playing lottery is a time waste. they set up high goals in their mind, that they dont reach. and then they became frustrated. and then they realize it is rinse and repeat. and then they stop playing.
    You got some good points for sure, and yeah, I understand it can be frustrating especially for those who raid at the top, proper mythic guilds and so on. The points about having goals too, I do get people's desire to be good, to be best, to get the best gear, that's of course something that lots of people find fun. I just don't think BiS should be a thing anymore. People can't reach it, so it's futile in my opinion to even try. That's why for me it's more sane to go after that "BiS" items at the current ilvl. As in mythic, you get that 385 weapon, and you'll be superhappy. But then we have those who then think; But this can be better... I need better...

    So yeah, I can understand and relate to top raiders getting frustrated by this. I am not saying more casual players shouldn't have goals, I am casual myself now, and been that since WoD, and I also got goals ingame.

  9. #169
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    How is Vanilla at all relevant? That was 12-14 years ago. The relevant comparison is to other recent expansions.
    idk it was in the OP

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Except they're not saying Vanilla was better, their argument is "Vanilla was even worse, so titanforging is fine", which is absurd because we've had over a decade of possible improvement since then. And the peak of gearing in WoW was Wrath/Cata/T14, in my opinion. No titanforging or warforging, the boss dropped the item and that was it, and in quantities that weren't as much of a joke as Vanilla. You also got rewarded purely on the difficulty of the content you did, not winning extra RNG rolls past "did the item drop?". Basically in terms of "eras", my ranking for gearing systems would be: Wrath/Cata/T14 > rest of MoP/WoD > Legion/BfA. Not sure where I'd put Vanilla and TBC as I didn't play them, but most likely below MoP/WoD.
    Sorry, best should be worst. Haha, that can turn the points a bit.

    Allright. Yeah, TBC had the best way of gearing imo. The rest falls in the same category almost for me. More random now, but you also get gear from a lot more sources. I do understand the RNG behind it, but it would be fine enough with Warforged, or let's say Thunderforged ^^

  11. #171
    I think people are just upset that they can't just have a list of their bis gear. People went into MC and knew what they wanted from there, now in days you can do a world quest that'll give you your bis item, and it just feels less rewarding.
    Never underestimate the unknown, or some shit. *shrugs i unno*

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Because reaching that point of "being done" was a fun goal to work towards in the past
    If by 'fun' you mean perma-QQ'ing on the forums about how there is nothing in game for you to do, then yeah, I remember those 'fun' times.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    If by 'fun' you mean perma-QQ'ing on the forums about how there is nothing in game for you to do, then yeah, I remember those 'fun' times.
    Except the people who actually reached BiS were not the ones complaining about not having anything to do, because the people who reached BiS were people who liked playing the game at a high level where gear is a tool, and having that tool equalized over time was welcomed.
    There's always going to be idiots complaining about there being nothing to do, that's pretty much impossible to change, but claiming that everybody complained about that or even that the people complaining are the ones who actually ended up reaching BiS is frankly retarded.
    Tradushuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  14. #174
    It went from a 3 layer dip of RNG to a personal 5 layer one or a possible 10 layer one if others get involved.

    Up until MoP it was:
    Can you kill the boss > Did it drop > Did you get it
    That was really all that determined if you got an item or not.

    Now it is:
    Can you kill the boss > Did it randomly get put in your bag > did it warforge > did it titanforge > does it have a socket

    -THEN ON TOP OF THAT-

    Can you kill the boss > did get randomly put in a friends bag > do they not want it > do they have a similar item of a higher level > do you of them ask for the item > does someone tell them to give it to you or someone else > did it warforge > did it titanforge > does it have a socket

    I am also leaving roll coins out of this because you may or may not use it for a boss. So yeah, this is kind of crazy. Now I will say in some ways it is perfectly ok. But in others it is kind of to much. I mean I am personally happy master loot is gone. But at the same time I am kind of worried about all the extra layers of RNG that are within an RNG system.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanu View Post
    happily!

    in classic there was only one source of gear, with a single item for your spec, you either got it or you didn't (you mostly didn't since it was shared with 40 other people, but that was ok, after all you had nothing better to do than run again next week)

    now there are multiple gear sources with lots of different items in the same slot to choose from, so if you get the 2nd or 3rd best in slot you can whine for not getting the 3rd, feelsbad
    Less RnG for loot
    More RnG for BiS gear

    People are good without BiS gear and bad with BiS gear. Having gear itself though, matters and that, IMO, has gotten better

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    It had the opposite effect on myself and a lot of my friends. In the past having that realistic goal of BiS to work towards added motivation to keep going. Now, where no item is special and everything is replaceable purely due to WF/TF/socket/tertiary RNG, it feels pointless, because you know it's impossible to ever be truly done, whereas in the past it was realistically possible to reach that point.
    Ok, I'll go with your reasoning.

    Now tell me, how many hours of playtime does 'realistically possible' translate into for you?
    Obviously less than the time it would take you to get 'absolute' best TF/socketed/tertiary in every slot as it is now, as you call that 'impossible'.
    I'm also speculating more than 'a few' hours as well, since why even bother if you are almost guaranteed 'done' before the first reset is over.

    Let's say something like playing 12 hours a week for 8 weeks should give you a 90% chance of being 'done' for the patch, what do you think? Too much? too little?
    Whatever numbers you pick, what does the game designer do with the people that like to play more than you, and haunt the fora with endless 'nothing to do' threads? Should Blizzard just say to them: 'Tradu wanted to play X hours a week and be done in Y weeks, be like Tradu'? Or what about the people that just want to play have as much as you and be 'done'. 'Be like Tradu' again?

  17. #177
    you mean apart from it permeating or over permeating every single solitary facet of wow now? admittedly, much of it is about perception, but thats half the game. They shoulda known better. random loot tables is "aww that didnt drop" vs "no loot again for my 10th m+ in a row" or "loot but straight to the scrapper"

    thats just the tip of the iceburg atm.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRemedy View Post
    Game is harder than it was in classic. The gear grind helps a lot in mythic.

    Classic wasn't super gear intensive, I mean it didn't hurt but it was more about wrangling 40 people who weren't idiots, and when you got to Naxx, poaching Warriors from other guilds.
    Uh-huh. Harder you say. Just took 40 decent players regardless of gear eh? How many people cleared Naxx40, again, compared to *insert newest tier of raid*?

    These responses confuse the hell out of me. There are a couple fights in Naxx 40 that you outright CAN'T do without SPECIFIC gear. Sapphiron will put out unhealable damage if you don't have around 200 cold res or so. You can't participate in this fight AT ALL without a minimum level of resistances. Four Horsemen is probably one of the most gear intensive fights ever shoved into this game outside of the grossly overtuned Sunwell.

    You had to carry FOUR full sets of resistance gear; Nature, Frost, Shadow and Fire. Loatheb all but mandated shadow resistances, Sapphiron mandated cold res, Nature was needed almost everywhere and that required AQ gear while Four Horsemen mandated Fire Res gear and 8 top-end geared tanks as a minimum. Did I mention that multiple sets of these gears come from raids which had notoriously low drops? That's to say nothing of other mandatory pieces for other raids, like Onyxia's Cloak to even participate in Nefarion, fire/shadow res in almost every raid, etc.

    Ragnaros(pre-nerf), M'uru(tbc), Four Horsemen, Onyxia, a lot of hard mode Ulduar fights, Twin Emps and C'thun(even post-nerf) were some of the most challenging bosses put into this game.
    Avatar given by Sausage Zeldas.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    Ok, I'll go with your reasoning.

    Now tell me, how many hours of playtime does 'realistically possible' translate into for you?
    Obviously less than the time it would take you to get 'absolute' best TF/socketed/tertiary in every slot as it is now, as you call that 'impossible'.
    I'm also speculating more than 'a few' hours as well, since why even bother if you are almost guaranteed 'done' before the first reset is over.

    Let's say something like playing 12 hours a week for 8 weeks should give you a 90% chance of being 'done' for the patch, what do you think? Too much? too little?
    Whatever numbers you pick, what does the game designer do with the people that like to play more than you, and haunt the fora with endless 'nothing to do' threads? Should Blizzard just say to them: 'Tradu wanted to play X hours a week and be done in Y weeks, be like Tradu'? Or what about the people that just want to play have as much as you and be 'done'. 'Be like Tradu' again?
    Except it's not some specific amount of time, it's the content you do. Fully clearing the raid every week for let's say 70% of the tier's duration to more or less guarantee being full BiS isn't unreasonable. Playing more than that doesn't have to award you gear. It didn't for the majority of the game's existence, and it worked very well.
    I also don't believe that the people complaining about having nothing to do were (in most cases) actually the ones who managed to reach full BiS either, considering all the people I talk to who raid at a decently high level(as in were realistically in a position to get BiS in the past) miss being able to be "done" and having more time to spend on other things. Taking a break from WoW outside of raid nights, playing other games, doing other things within WoW.
    Tradushuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Except it's not some specific amount of time, it's the content you do. Fully clearing the raid every week for let's say 70% of the tier's duration to more or less guarantee being full BiS isn't unreasonable. Playing more than that doesn't have to award you gear. It didn't for the majority of the game's existence, and it worked very well.
    I also don't believe that the people complaining about having nothing to do were (in most cases) actually the ones who managed to reach full BiS either, considering all the people I talk to who raid at a decently high level(as in were realistically in a position to get BiS in the past) miss being able to be "done" and having more time to spend on other things. Taking a break from WoW outside of raid nights, playing other games, doing other things within WoW.
    But can you see that once more you are saying 'what worked for me should work for everyone'. There are many other players that have a very different approach to WoW than you. As I opinionated in a previous answer, I think the 'soft cap' systems are working great, except for a few player types.

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